Proof of Immortality, VI

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- But, whether or not we will wither and die is not the issue here.
- The issue here is whether or not we each have only one finite life at most.


Jabba,

You. Brought. It. Up.

The question was how a mountain is different from a man. You said, a mountain will wither away.

Well, so will a human.

Then what is the difference between a mountain and a man? It's your question, you should answer it.
 
- Remember, it isn't the size of the likelihood that determines the legitimacy of a target -- the size of the likelihood is relevant only when the event can be otherwise suspected of being a target. In order to be identified as a legitimate target, the particular event needs to be somehow "meaningfully set apart" (like the second cousin of the lottery controller winning the lottery) from the multitude of other similar events.


How are you "meaningfully set apart" from all the potential Jabbas who, you claim, could have existed in your place?

If someone else existed in your place, and advanced the same argument for immortality that you are advancing, would their argument be valid?
 
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Jabba,

You. Brought. It. Up.

The question was how a mountain is different from a man. You said, a mountain will wither away.

Well, so will a human.

Then what is the difference between a mountain and a man? It's your question, you should answer it.


Jabba,
Please answer LL's question. He is the one who took-up your one-on-one challenge, only to have you throw slop in his face.

Show some respect to your interlocutors for a change.
 
LOL agitated? No. Mildly amused perhaps

Well, you did "bwahaha" insanely and condemn me to eternal insignificance over 3 dots. Perhaps I mistook that for agitation.

You do? Then 2: You are a solipsist. must by your account have a very high probability.

That's not one of the possibilities I'm considering.

Actually, your latest post has caused me to update my probabilities. I now consider it even less likely that you are not intentionally assigning a bogus philosophy to me.

Coy? Busted? I made no such claim of any time that anyone hopped on any form of bus. That is your person of straw.

Sorry. I didn't know you think so concretely. The bus-hopping was figurative.
 
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Right - whether we can live again after withering and dying. To live again I would have to exist again. There's no reason to think mountains or people can exist more than once.
Dave,
- By "I would have to exist again," you mean that your physical body/brain would have to live again. But that is just another way of expressing your opinion re this issue -- i.e., your particular body/brain would have to live again in order for your sense of self to exist again.
- Thusly expressing your opinion, does nothing to negate the critical differences between you and Rainier, and in no way sets Rainier apart from other geological formations.
- Unless there are multi-verses, there is no reason to wonder about Mt Rainier existing again, but there is reason to wonder about my self (and, I assume, your self) existing again...
 
Dave,
- By "I would have to exist again," you mean that your physical body/brain would have to live again. But that is just another way of expressing your opinion re this issue -- i.e., your particular body/brain would have to live again in order for your sense of self to exist again.

It's not just my opinion, it's H, the hypothesis you claim you are trying to disprove.

- Thusly expressing your opinion, does nothing to negate the critical differences between you and Rainier, and in no way sets Rainier apart from other geological formations.

You still haven't explained what those critical differences are.

- Unless there are multi-verses, there is no reason to wonder about Mt Rainier existing again, but there is reason to wonder about my self (and, I assume, your self) existing again...

I asked you what that reason was and you still haven't supplied it. What is the reason to wonder about your self existing again? Why does it apply to your self but not Mount Rainier?
 
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Dave,
- By "I would have to exist again," you mean that your physical body/brain would have to live again. But that is just another way of expressing your opinion re this issue -- i.e., your particular body/brain would have to live again in order for your sense of self to exist again.
- Thusly expressing your opinion, does nothing to negate the critical differences between you and Rainier, and in no way sets Rainier apart from other geological formations.
- Unless there are multi-verses, there is no reason to wonder about Mt Rainier existing again, but there is reason to wonder about my self (and, I assume, your self) existing again...

No, there is no reason to wonder about your self exiting again under the materialistic theory you're trying to disprove. Because in that theory the self is an emergent property of a functing brain. Brain stops functioning, self ceases.
 
Mt Rainier is different in some respects from every other mountain, but not, apparently, in a way that is meaningful to the issue at hand. In regard to this issue at hand, there is nothing to suggest that Rainier is not the precise result of physics, nor that it won't wither away like any other mountain...

Apparently? There is nothing about human minds that suggest that they are not the precise result of physics, either.
 
I think he is going for 'you can't prove it is impossible for consciousness to exist after death', therefore somehow this becomes a legitimate hypothesis.
Just because something is unfalsifiable, does not mean it is possible.
 
I think he is going for 'you can't prove it is impossible for consciousness to exist after death', therefore somehow this becomes a legitimate hypothesis.
Just because something is unfalsifiable, does not mean it is possible.
More to the point, why is he bothering to argue that you can't prove that it's not impossible, when he claims to have proof that it does happen? :confused:

Isn't this thread 'Proof of Immortality'? Where's the beef, Jabba?
 
I think he is going for 'you can't prove it is impossible for consciousness to exist after death', therefore somehow this becomes a legitimate hypothesis.
Just because something is unfalsifiable, does not mean it is possible.

He's been down that path more than twice already. The bad old days of "weak evidence" being wrung out of anecdotes springs to mind.
 
By "I would have to exist again," you mean that your physical body/brain would have to live again.

Which is analogous to saying that Mt Ranier would have to form again. I think we're in agreement that, in materialism, neither a human brain nor a mountain is likely to arise again that is an exact copy of any that came before. However, that is entirely beside the point.

But that is just another way of expressing your opinion re this issue...

No, it is a prediction of H, the materialist hypothesis. If you are reckoning P(E|H), you must do so as if H were true. That includes granting its predictions in determinable cases. The materialist hypothesis predicts that if all the causes that contribute to the formation of a mountain were to be recreated, we can expect the mountain to exhibit all the properties, emergent or otherwise, of its predecessor. That is, the materialist hypothesis demands that if the material is the same, all that matters about the entity must be the same, as all properties are determined by material alone.

Once again you're trying to cast aspersions on H, picking away at P(H), as if that had any bearing on P(E|H). Some time ago I presented to you a list of individually fatal flaws in your argument. One of those was the observation that you do not understand the different components in an inferential model and the role each plays in the quantitative behavior of the model. You alluded to this lack of understanding when you presented the formulation of Bayes' theorem and admitted that you did not understand it. Your argument today is simply another in a long series of examples underscoring this point.

You said that if you could just get past the Texas sharpshooter fallacy, your argument would fall into place. Today's argument, which replicates another fatal error, says otherwise. Given the discrepancy between what we can observe about your proof and your expression of confidence in it, please take the time to go back to those dozen or so individually fatal flaws and write a sentence or two explaining how you plan to correct your proof to remedy those flaws.

Thusly expressing your opinion, does nothing to negate the critical differences between you and Rainier, and in no way sets Rainier apart from other geological formations.

You've shown no critical difference.

The point your critics have successfully made is that in materialism there is no critical difference between a human being and a mountain as far as your proof goes. Both are entities. Both exhibit emergent properties. The precise configuration of each is the product of a chaotic system that is unlikely to repeat. In neither case was any specific entity "set apart" in a way that allows the probability of its having arisen to be significant.

Because each entity is the product of a chaotic system, we can imagine that the system has the capacity to produce great variation. However, that is not a basis from which to reckon the probability of any particular specimen as meaningful information. Meaningfulness of that probability requires the precise specimen to have had meaning before the system operated. This does not happen in materialism in the case either of mountains or of human beings. Preference doesn't work that way in chaos theory.

In each case the chaotic system has produced many different specimens. There are different mountains. There are different human beings. Some categories of properties belonging to each type of entity do not vary in fine as the specimen varies. Each mountain, for example, has the property of causing local gravitational deflections, proportional to its mass. This is a property of all mountains of similar mass, regardless of their specific shape.

Similarly, all human beings exhibit the emergent property of emitting heat; each functioning body emits heat, roughly 80 watts in the typical ambient. This is because humans are endothermic, and in normal operation each functioning human body undergoes metabolism, an (ironically) exothermic chemical process. That property is roughly the same for all humans, regardless of otherwise observable differences. This property of human bodies is said to be emergent because the process of metabolism requires sufficient composition of different body parts before it can operate.

Further, each nominal human being exhibits the property of self-awareness. This too is an emergent property because it requires a functioning body up to the point where the process of conscious brain operation occurs. There is no operative difference between the self-awareness exhibited by one human and that exhibited by another human in equal working order. Just as there is no difference between the "going 60 mph" exhibited by one Volkswagen on the highway and other mechanically equivalent Volkswagen. This is the meaning of "property" that you simply refuse to listen to.

You concede that all the above regarding the emergence of properties should be the case for mountains, but you insist that such should not be the case for human beings because of some imagined critical difference between them. You cannot show any critical difference. You imagine that there is one. You ardently allude to the supposed nobility of man -- "We all take our existence for granted, but we shouldn't" -- as a means of pleading that such a difference must be present, even if you can't put your finger on it. You spout all kinds of babble purporting to be this magical difference, but in five years you haven't been able to define it, prove it exists, or show where any formulation of materialism involves it. In short, you just make stuff up and try to discredit materialism because it cannot explain your made-up, deliberately ambiguous, emotional life raft. An existential crisis is not evidence.

Now let's examine (for the umpteenth time) how your argument specifically errs.

Your argument relies upon observable differences in the entities necessarily reflecting in fine detail upon the exhibition of any given property. Some of your critics have indulged you in this reliance, owing in my opinion to their inattention to your various equivocations. You have tried to argue that materialism requires that a human being's "chemistry" or genetics must uniquely determine "a" distinct self-awareness. The question is meaningless in materialism, there is no concept of distinction for self-awareness any more than there is a distinction in the heat emitted by virtue of metabolism.

The article above is in cautionary quotes because "a" self or "a" consciousness is as grammatically valid under materialism, as "a going 60 mph" (as a property of cars) or "a heat" (as a property of endothermic organisms). (N.B., exothermic and endothermic have different meanings depending on whether the context is chemistry or biology.) Your argument simply ignores altogether what a property is. We say "consciousness or self-awareness is an emergent property of a functioning brain," and you blindly parse "self-awareness" as a reference to some entity that is, by your own admission, a flimsy synonym for a soul. This is the central question that you blatantly beg in your argument. The property of self-awareness under materialism is not anything like a soul, in any way, shape, form, or operation.

You have further conflated the products of these processes and the effects of these properties with the properties and processes themselves, in a further desperate effort to transform a property into an entity and thereby argue that they must be able to differ. Recasting properties as particularized entities is crucial to your argument, because your model is statistical and requires enumerability in order to work at all. Materialism does not provide you that enumerability, so your model -- any statistical model, in fact -- is the wrong tool to use.

You want to expand the notion of self, self-awareness, consciousness -- or any of the other in a long string of words you've worked your way through in an effort to keep ideas ambiguous -- to include the effects of properties in specific environments. Being self-aware causes us to make observations, form memories, experience emotions, make decisions, and so forth. Because each person experiences a different set of stimuli, the results of the process of consciousness differ in each case. In materialism these are reflected simply as physical and chemical changes in the brain that alter how the brain will process subsequent stimulus.

In your theory, that essence is what is preserved after death as the soul. But in materialism it cannot be preserved after death, because the death of the organism results in the degradation of the persistent chemical and physical states that embody that essence as materialism theorizes it to be held. You conflate your desired theory with materialism and argue that self-awareness includes the persistent state upon which the process operates. That, in your argument, converts self-awareness into a particular entity, even in materialism. But it does not, as materialism maintains the distinction between process and material. Process is abstract; the effects of process do not have to be.

The proof is in the examples I raised earlier. Metabolic heat remains unchanged as a property regardless of the results of emission. Whether the heat from my hand warms a glass of overchilled wine or the cheek of my dog has not the slightest effect on the property of heat emission. There isn't a different "kind" of heat that goes into the wine versus the dog. Metabolism doesn't fundamentally change because a dog received the heat as opposed to wine. The concept of heat transfer doesn't suddenly have to be described differently depending on the arbitrary identity of its receiver. Yet a reasonably persistent effect is had upon the environment. We can observe the wine warming, with the effect that some of its flavors are opened up. Or we can observe the dog to respond affectionately. Make no mistake: a different result ensues. But that difference doesn't transform the process.

Similarly "going 60 mph" had the result this morning of depositing me at work. In a few hours the result of "going 60 mph" will return me home. Right now, at this very hour, I'm sure the result of "going 60 mph" is having the effect of transporting a lovely family to the seaside in Blackpool, England. We can point out numerous results of different entities exhibiting the property of "going 60 mph" in different times and places. And those results have persistent, perhaps irreversible, perhaps irreproducible effects on the physical world. But luckily none of those affects the essence of the property. We don't have to rewrite Newton's Principia Mathematica to reformulate the property of velocity in order to incorporate all the effects it may have. The effects do not retroactively affect the property, are not part of the property, and do not cause us to think differently about the property.

In sum, materialism holds as a matter of principle that there is no inherent difference between human beings and mountains in the ways that apply to the exhibition and observation of properties. It is according to those principles -- not those you invent yourself -- that you must evaluate P(E|H). Any other analysis is immediately invalid. Since you refuse to evaluate materialism except as you've improperly amended it (i.e., straw man), your argument fails.

...but there is reason to wonder about my self (and, I assume, your self) existing again...

The only reason you've ever provided to wonder about yourself existing again is your fervent desire to do so, which you admit is a strong emotional conviction. That is insufficient to support a mathematical proof that it will, in fact, happen.
 
I'm on the scientific side of this but I will play for the other team briefly to generate (hopefully) better discussion.

Three different points really.

1. Is a running engine not different than an engine? What do you call that difference?

2. If the brain gives us the mind, but using the mind we can make a new brain, have we not broken the bounds of the material philosophy at that point? (or something)

3. If using our material faculties, we decide that all things are material, isn't that at the very least ironic?
 
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I'm on the scientific side of this but I will play for the other team briefly to generate (hopefully) better discussion.

Three different points really.

1. Is a running engine not different than an engine? What do you call that difference?
What difference does it matter what you call the difference? :confused:

Besides, a running engine isn't different than an engine because it is an engine. A running engine is different than a non-running engine, but I don't see the relevancy of what you call that difference.

2. If the brain gives us the mind, but using the mind we can make a new brain, have we not broken the bounds of the material philosophy at that point? (or something)
No. I don't understand the question at all or what it's relevancy is.

3. If using our material faculties, we decide that all things are material, isn't that at the very least ironic?
No. Why is it ironic? And why is it relevant to the discussion at hand? :confused:

I'm really not sure what you're getting at here.
 
1. Is a running engine not different than an engine? What do you call that difference?

A running engine is different by observation than a non-running engine, clearly. The difference can go by any number of suitable names: turned-on, operating, functional, etc. The analogy in this thread would be to a living person versus a freshly-deceased corpse. They would both be mechanically equivalent humans, for the most part, with the difference being that one has decayed to the point of no longer being able to sustain an emergent property. The engines don't differ in their mechanical construction, we presume.

A better question might be the difference between two engines of the same design, both running. "Running" is a property of an engine, or any other kind of dynamic machine. Is "running" something that differs between the two engines? Or is running and abstract concept that is simply being displayed in each individual engine? Materialism conceives of self-awareness in that way. There aren't two "self-awarenesses" in two human beings any more than there are two "runnings" in the two engines.
 
Jesse, I'm trying to think like a woo-believer, asking the sorts of questions that are intended to throw a wrench in the works of science and reason.

Thanks Jay. I do like your formulation better. I think it's an interesting question, philosophically, perhaps only by a sort of rhetorical sleight-of-hand, but still interesting.
 
Alright, to expand on this one:

2. If the brain gives us the mind, but using the mind we can make a new brain, have we not broken the bounds of the material philosophy at that point? (or something)

It was said earlier that the mind is an emergent property of the brain, which I really like by the way. But if that mind creates a new brain, and then manages to transfer* their mind to that new brain, does that not put an end to materialism or at least redefine it in some way?

*Not so much transfer as re-create. This brings to mind the old teleportation question. If the teleportation device creates a new duplicate of you, is destroying the original you an ethical act as part of the transfer, and is it really you that comes out the other end?
 
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Alright, to expand on this one:

2. If the brain gives us the mind, but using the mind we can make a new brain, have we not broken the bounds of the material philosophy at that point? (or something)

It was said earlier that the mind is an emergent property of the brain, which I really like by the way. But if that mind creates a new brain, and then manages to transfer their mind to that new brain, does that not put an end to materialism or at least redefine it in some way?

No, and it all depends on what you mean by "transfer their mind to the new brain." A transfer of one's mind would be at the instant of the transfer. So you'd now have two of the same minds which would diverge from that moment as each mind would then have it's own set of experiences going forward.

Alternatively, an identical brain from birth would need to have all the same experiences as the original to be the same as the mind/self, etc isn't a static thing but is rather an ongoing process being added to with every experience the brain has.
 
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