Proof of Immortality III

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To be fair to Jabba,

Hey a like minded soul mind. I share your horror about the idea of eternal life, and mentioned it before on another thread, but didn't seem to strike a cord with anyone else.

I brought this up years ago, and he deigned to reply, something to the effect of "we don't know what the afterlife is like," cool breeze from the hand-wave, amen.

He was right, of course: we don't know anything about any supposed afterlife

AND IT DOESN'T ****** MATTER! To paraphrase another poster here, from before Jabba's day, "The most exquisite paradise would become an unendurable hell long before eternity even began."

Old stuff, ackshully. But believers refuse -- as they must! -- to accept that eventually they'd get sick of all that pie in the sky.

Wonder where Jabba stopped reading this one?
 
I brought this up years ago, and he deigned to reply, something to the effect of "we don't know what the afterlife is like," cool breeze from the hand-wave, amen.

He was right, of course: we don't know anything about any supposed afterlife

AND IT DOESN'T ****** MATTER! To paraphrase another poster here, from before Jabba's day, "The most exquisite paradise would become an unendurable hell long before eternity even began."

Old stuff, ackshully. But believers refuse -- as they must! -- to accept that eventually they'd get sick of all that pie in the sky.

Wonder where Jabba stopped reading this one?

Hmmm. I find it akin to asking people to imagine world peace in their minds eye. Almost invariably, the internal image contains no people whatsoever.

World peace thus is dependant upon the elimination of people.

Try it. Ask anyone to picture in their imagination the entire world at peace. What would it look like? Describe how it looks.

Never any people in it. Odd.
 
It goes further than that. Faith in blatant contradiction of evidence makes one's connection to God even stronger. In the most Fundamentalist circles, Satan fakes scientific evidence in order to deceive uncommitted believers. This leads to the anti-science sentiment in such circles, where scientists are agents of evil who help Satan destroy faith in God by developing evidence that contradicts religion.

Not everyone is so dogmatic, however. There are plenty of people who, despite their faith, recognize that if religion alleges an ordinary testable fact, then it stands to reason there should be secular evidence to facilitate the test. That's why, for example, you have Mormon archaeologists scurrying all over the Americas trying to find evidence of the Book of Mormon. If you find secular evidence in favor of your belief, you trumpet it to the world. If you find evidence that contradicts it, then you fall back on faith and say there must be some nuance that's yet undiscovered, that lets both the evidence and your belief coexist. If you find no evidence either way, then your faith at least has no secular contradiction you need to explain away. This is how some people reconcile religion and science.

While it's easy to see that Jabba's persistence manifests a religious style of faith, it's only been in a few cases I can recall where he has professed any sort of faith. And it wasn't faith in any particular tradition; it was just a vague expression of belief in mysticism and miracles. It's hard to tar Jabba as any sort of dogmatic believer based solely on his posts here. But his desire to prove, according to secular principles, propositions generally found only in religion is consistent with at least one expression of religious belief.
Jay,
- My basic belief is that modern science/reductive materialism is missing a big piece of the puzzle. I believe that for a few different reasons:
1. Nothing really makes sense. If there were nothing, now that would make sense!
2. Free will doesn't make sense, but I tend to believe in it anyway...
3. I still believe that scientifically speaking, we're all absolute miracles! We take our existences totally for granted -- but, where in the hell did we come from?
4. I believe that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
5. I believe that analytic minds have difficulty perceiving (or, imagining) what holistic minds call "transcendence" -- what makes a philosophy religious.
6. Etc.
 
I brought this up years ago, and he deigned to reply, something to the effect of "we don't know what the afterlife is like," cool breeze from the hand-wave, amen.

He was right, of course: we don't know anything about any supposed afterlife

AND IT DOESN'T ****** MATTER! To paraphrase another poster here, from before Jabba's day, "The most exquisite paradise would become an unendurable hell long before eternity even began."

Old stuff, ackshully. But believers refuse -- as they must! -- to accept that eventually they'd get sick of all that pie in the sky.

Wonder where Jabba stopped reading this one?
Sackett,
- I tend to believe that "heaven" is a meaningful allegory, but nothing like what most of us humans think.
 
Jay,
- My basic belief is that modern science/reductive materialism is missing a big piece of the puzzle. I believe that for a few different reasons:
1. Nothing really makes sense. If there were nothing, now that would make sense!
2. Free will doesn't make sense, but I tend to believe in it anyway...
3. I still believe that scientifically speaking, we're all absolute miracles! We take our existences totally for granted -- but, where in the hell did we come from?
4. I believe that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
5. I believe that analytic minds have difficulty perceiving (or, imagining) what holistic minds call "transcendence" -- what makes a philosophy religious.
6. Etc.

Jabba do you think you're the first person in history to have an existential crisis?
 
hmmmmmmmmmmm

Jay,
- My basic belief is that modern science/reductive materialism is missing a big piece of the puzzle. I believe that for a few different reasons:
1. Nothing really makes sense. If there were nothing, now that would make sense!
What is the measurement being used to judge if something makes 'sense'?
Talking donkeys? Does that make sense?

2. Free will doesn't make sense, but I tend to believe in it anyway...
because...........?
3. I still believe that scientifically speaking, we're all absolute miracles! We take our existences totally for granted -- but, where in the hell did we come from?
Is polio a miracle? How about smallpox?

4. I believe that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
therefore.......?
5. I believe that analytic minds have difficulty perceiving (or, imagining) what holistic minds call "transcendence" -- what makes a philosophy religious.
Right, you need to believe this because reason is failing you so badly.


????
 
Jay,
- My basic belief is that modern science/reductive materialism is missing a big piece of the puzzle. I believe that for a few different reasons:
1. Nothing really makes sense. If there were nothing, now that would make sense!
2. Free will doesn't make sense, but I tend to believe in it anyway...
3. I still believe that scientifically speaking, we're all absolute miracles! We take our existences totally for granted -- but, where in the hell did we come from?
4. I believe that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
5. I believe that analytic minds have difficulty perceiving (or, imagining) what holistic minds call "transcendence" -- what makes a philosophy religious.
6. Etc.
Your personal beliefs appear to be a mix of self-soothing and ignorance, with just a hint of narcissism. I would encourage you to abandon your beliefs for those that are testably falsifiable.

Though, to be honest, I don't believe you will.
 
I just felt a breeze

Can you expound your allegory? You call it meaningful, but that doesn't get us very far.

Not that it matters. You're avoiding the question of just what an immortal soul is supposed to do for eternity.

ETERNITY! Must I shout it every time?
 
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Jay,
- My basic belief is that modern science/reductive materialism is missing a big piece of the puzzle. I believe that for a few different reasons:
1. Nothing really makes sense. If there were nothing, now that would make sense!
Your inability to make sense of anything does not mean nobody else can make sense of anything. You are simply projecting your inability onto others. Don't do that.

2. Free will doesn't make sense, but I tend to believe in it anyway...
Religion seeks to steal that from you, not grant it to you.

3. I still believe that scientifically speaking, we're all absolute miracles! We take our existences totally for granted -- but, where in the hell did we come from?
Well, if you are going to define the mundane as miraculous, then every damn thing is a miracle.

Woke up this morning. Miracle. Made a nice tasty breakfast. Miracle. And so forth.

4. I believe that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
So what. In science, the process of emergent behaviour of systems demonstrates this all the time. Try explaining Langton's Ant. Tell me why it builds a highway. Is it a miracle?

5. I believe that analytic minds have difficulty perceiving (or, imagining) what holistic minds call "transcendence" -- what makes a philosophy religious.
No, see as science has closed down the god of the gaps, god botherers keep having to redefine terms arbitrarily to sustain the increasingly untenable. Thus they end up with both legs in one knicker hole. The god botherers cannot come up with a coherent definition of transcendence, holistic, perception, philosophy, religion, reductionism, etc. Ask any three and not one will agree with the other.

Additionally, actual philosophers get quite humpy at such abuse of their métier and rightly so.

WTF? "etc" implies there is more to add. I strongly suspect that there isn't. Either way "etc" alone is not a point in your favour.

You are posting in a space which allows you to present your cogent arguments in favour of your position. "6. Etc." is not a cogent argument.
 
My basic belief is that modern science/reductive materialism is missing a big piece of the puzzle.

First off, like most anti-skeptics you can't demonstrate a competent knowledge of science or an interest in learning about it. This was made very evident in your Shroud thread. So like most anti-skeptics, you attack a straw man you've constructed to represent science. Now we're faced with the irony of you trying to use science to prove the existence of one of the puzzle pieces you say science is missing. I speculated you want to prove immortality should be a scientifically tenable belief, and that skeptics' disbelief of it is therefore an ideological conclusion, not a scientific one. It's the age-old tactic of trying to classify scientific methods as a competing psuedo-religious belief system. Am I on the right track?

Second, even after repeated questioning you can't show or describe what, if anything, science is missing. All you can bring up are vague impressions or ideas you have, which you declare are forever beyond science's ability to understand. You even go so far as to accuse scientists of deliberately avoiding them. The best you can come up with are web links to various woo peddlers spouting nonsensical, mystical-sounding platitudes to uncritical and gullible followers.

It amounts to a vast circular argument designed to compensate for (usually unjustified) feelings of inferiority. I'm sorry the intellectual world rejected you all those years ago, but find a less vindictive way of dealing with that.

Nothing really makes sense.

I'll echo Joe Bentley. Have an existential crisis if that's what you want. But have it on your own time. Don't project it onto others. If you can't make sense of something or anything, deal with it. Don't blame people who think differently than you do about the world and don't presume to speak for them out of what is basically an argument from ignorance.

Again we face irony that despite your excoriation of science, you're trying to compute your way out of this crisis. The only thing I can imagine would cause proof of immortality to suddenly make sense of things is if it were somehow to invoke one of the classical formulations of religion that preaches immortality and goes on to invent a purpose and plan for life out of whole cloth. If there were some grand design upon which you could rely, you could personally make better sense of your world.

If you need that crutch, fine. Don't insinuate that we all should.

Free will doesn't make sense, but I tend to believe in it anyway...

Sounds like your personal problem to me. I don't have any issue with free will, and I don't see how trying to prove immortality would affect your evaluation of it. In our one finite life we exercise free will and bear its consequences. I don't see how that would change if extended to eternity.

I still believe that scientifically speaking, we're all absolute miracles!

That's not speaking scientifically.

We take our existences totally for granted -- but, where in the hell did we come from?

I don't agree that we take our existence for granted. But obviously your judgment arises out of your made-up notion that we are all miracles. You see people who, in your estimation, don't properly respect the "miracle" of their own existence and you translate that into some shortfall on their part. For my part, I don't need some narcissistic notion of self in order to live my life. I don't have to believe, as do the Mormons for example, that I'm a god in embryo, created to fulfill some galactic master plan and destined for greatness.

We are the vanguard of an evolutionary process. The mind is merely one emergent property of that evolution. I am quite aware that many people desperately wish there to be more, and aspire to some lofty genesis. However they can show no evidence for it, or evidence for a need for it. It is for some a comfortable belief, and were it left a belief I wouldn't mind. But when they claim it is fact and that they can prove it to a skeptical mind by objective means, they had better be able to deliver the goods. Failing at it and falling back on "holistic thinking" to soothe their shattered egos doesn't interest me, nor does veiled elitism against those who don't need their emotional and pseudo-intellectual crutch.

I believe that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

That can mean many things, not all of which your critics would dispute. The problem is that here and now you've proposed an aspect of the whole -- an immortal soul -- which alludes to certain specific properties, none of which you can demonstrate exists or has an effect. In fact you can't even describe the characteristics of the synergistic whole, and have at times denied that they have any characteristics.

That pseudo-philosophical and pseudo-intellectual gibberish does not substitute for reasoning in any way of thinking.

I believe that analytic minds have difficulty perceiving (or, imagining) what holistic minds call "transcendence" -- what makes a philosophy religious.

Asked and answered.

1. Holistic thinking doesn't mean what you think it means.
2. The distinction you propose to draw was discredited decades ago.
3. You have not shown you are any more a holistic thinker than your critics.
4. You have not shown your critics are any less able to think holistically than you or anyone else.
5. You have not shown that "holistic thinking" is best at addressing the questions you raise.
6. You have here proposed a mode of proof that is, in your taxonomy, clearly analytical.

By my count this is the fourth time I've confronted you with these facts, and this will almost certainly be the fourth time you ignore it. You can't address them, and that inability reveals the fundamental delusion behind your claim. The upshot is that you've invented a mode of thinking out of thin air, declared it to be superior at the sorts of things you deem critical, declared yourself a master at it, and reprehend those who don't accept your particular self-styled genius. Again, don't take out your academic failure on others.

What you call "transcendence" I call irrational superstition. That's what makes a philosophy religious. You had plenty of opportunity to discuss actual philosophy here, but as I mentioned before all you can manage is meaningless starry-eyed mysticism. If you want to make up stories and believe them, go right ahead. But giving that exercise a pretentious name and boastfully climbing atop a pedestal for it only engenders laughter.


Well, thank you. I can't have asked for a better confirmation that your purpose here is to make yourself feel better by calling small-minded any who don't think as you do and accept your evasive, nonsensical dribble as some sort of gospel. Now that we've cleared the air on that, are you finally ready to give up your clearly deceased attempt to "essentially prove immortality mathematically?"

You cannot do it. You've been thoroughly refuted and you know it. After four years of stubbornly pushing the same error, can we finally be rid of your folly?
 
No, see as science has closed down the god of the gaps, god botherers keep having to redefine terms arbitrarily to sustain the increasingly untenable.

And that's all this slow moving rolling dumpster fire of a thread has been about, pretending there are still gaps to shove God into.

Call everything a miracle, sure. Pretend science can't explain things that it demonstrably can explain, sure. Make up tacked on meaningless definitions to add to understandable things and demand science explain them, sure. Create the classic strawman version of science as cold and emotionless and narrow minded.

We've seen it all before.
 
Jay,
- My basic belief is that modern science/reductive materialism is missing a big piece of the puzzle. I believe that for a few different reasons:
1. Nothing really makes sense. If there were nothing, now that would make sense!
2. Free will doesn't make sense, but I tend to believe in it anyway...
3. I still believe that scientifically speaking, we're all absolute miracles! We take our existences totally for granted -- but, where in the hell did we come from?
4. I believe that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
5. I believe that analytic minds have difficulty perceiving (or, imagining) what holistic minds call "transcendence" -- what makes a philosophy religious.
6. Etc.

Does this mean you accept the H is more likely than ~H, and now you're moving on to whine about science being mean?
 
No, it is not. You have specified winners who are all related to the controller of the lottery. That makes them a special case because, before the lottery is drawn, they have a particular characteristic that is not shared by all the ticket holders.

For everyone who exists to be an analogous special case they would need to share a particular characteristic other than the fact that they exist that is not shared by people who d on't exist.
You are trying to claim that your existence is a special case analogous to a relation of the lottery controller winning the lottery.

Your existence is not analogous to this unless you are claiming to be related to the controller of the universe.
Mojo,
- My best guess is that I am related to the controller of the universe/the force/the over soul/the conscious universe...
- But, that's just my best guess.
- Re the hilited paragraph, I need to think about it. I'll be back.
 
Jabba your goalposts are breaking the land speed record at this point.

Your original claim, now lost to the myths of history and time in your world it seems, was that you could use math, most notably Bayesian statistics, to prove immortality.

Once that particularly claim was quickly and overwhelmingly burned to the ground and had salt sown into its Earth you ran and hide behind probability itself. After the entire population of a small city's worth of people took turns explaining it to you over and over in every possible way how wrong your understanding of statistics and probability were (and suffering through a couple of your patented fringe resets back to square one and a few detours into your befuddled old man routine and a couple of test runs into outright snarky trolling) you've been reduced to the lowest of the low of the Woo Slinger arguments, the "Science and Skeptics are big meanies" song and dance.

Just go full anti-intellectual and take a powerskid into full on solipsism. I can't wait to see what you do with the word "qualia."
 
Mojo,
- My best guess is that I am related to the controller of the universe/the force/the over soul/the conscious universe...
- But, that's just my best guess.
- Re the hilited paragraph, I need to think about it. I'll be back.

Alternatively, there is no conscious universe and your consciousness is merely an emergent property of your neuro system. Human consciousness is little more powerful than that of other animals with brains, but not particularly important in the context of the universe.
 
My best guess is that I am related to the controller of the universe/the force/the over soul/the conscious universe...

That doesn't fix anything. It only adds to the things you need to prove exist and have the effect and characteristics you claim. So now you're going to prove the existence of God mathematically?
 
Mojo,
- My best guess is that I am related to the controller of the universe/the force/the over soul/the conscious universe...
- But, that's just my best guess.
- Re the hilited paragraph, I need to think about it. I'll be back.

Over the course of this interminable thread you have devolved from a claim of mathematical proof to an outright guess.

What does this tell you about your proposition?
 
Mojo,
- My best guess is that I am related to the controller of the universe/the force/the over soul/the conscious universe...
- But, that's just my best guess.


No, it's just you making something up. There is no reason to think that there is a "controller of the universe", no reason to think that you are related to this "controller" if it did exist, and no reason to think that it would make you different from potential people who don't exist if you were.

You might as well just say, "I'm special because God chose me", and leave it at that.
 
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We're one more semantic rearrangement from Jabba just straight out claiming to be the Second Coming.
 
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