Proof of Immortality II

[George]

- We aren't looking for the causes of the locations. I would assume that it doesn't matter how the original and the replica got to where they were upon inception -- what matters is that where they were were different (in your model).
- I think that is what you should have said the first time.

Sad preacher nailed upon the coloured door of time
Insane teacher be there reminded of the rhyme
There'll be no mutant enemy we shall certify
Political ends as sad remains will die
Reach out as forward tastes begin to enter you

Na na na nanaaaaa
Na nanaaaaaaaaaa
Na na na na

Coming quickly to terms of all expression laaaaaid
Emotions revealed as the ocean maaaaaaid
As a movement regained and regarded both the sa haymeeee
All complete in the sight of seeds of life with youuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

Noooo nee nee ne nne

Na na na nanaaaaa
Na nanaaaaaaaaaa
Na na na na

eta, er that's enough singing for now lads.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Sad preacher nailed upon the coloured door of time
Insane teacher be there reminded of the rhyme
There'll be no mutant enemy we shall certify
Political ends as sad remains will die
Reach out as forward tastes begin to enter you

Na na na nanaaaaa
Na nanaaaaaaaaaa
Na na na na

Coming quickly to terms of all expression laaaaaid
Emotions revealed as the ocean maaaaaaid
As a movement regained and regarded both the sa haymeeee
All complete in the sight of seeds of life with youuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

Noooo nee nee ne nne

Na na na nanaaaaa
Na nanaaaaaaaaaa
Na na na na

eta, er that's enough singing for now lads.

Yes! Yes, indeed!

 

[John Jones]

Na na na na
Na na na na
Hey hey hey, goodbye!

 

[Jabba]

Everything needs a cause, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to call a difference a thing. Elephants and squid need causes, but the difference between them just is. A difference isn't even an action!

- The first glass of milk is white, while the second glass of milk is brown. There is a cause for the difference -- chocolate was added to the second glass of milk.
- There has to be a cause for the difference between the SELVES produced by two identical brains.

 

[John Jones]

- The first glass of milk is white, while the second glass of milk is brown. There is a cause for the difference -- chocolate was added to the second glass of milk.

As you have always done, you are begging the question. The second glass of milk is brown because it is brown. If you can demonstrate that it was brown-colored because of chocolate as opposed to fecal matter, let us see you do it.

- There has to be a cause for the difference between the SELVES produced by two identical brains.

Says who? Cite somebody. Cite anybody. I'm afraid we'll all meet our end before you provide evidence.

You've only had one claim as far as I can see: "I don't like the idea of my mortality, therefore I am immortal"

 

[Slowvehicle]

- The first glass of milk is white, while the second glass of milk is brown. There is a cause for the difference -- chocolate was added to the second glass of milk.
- There has to be a cause for the difference between the SELVES produced by two identical brains.

Mr. Savage:

The two (different, even if "identical") brains are two different (even if "identical") neurosystems; each different (even if "identical") neurosystem will have a different (even if "identical") consciousness (or SELF); the "identical" (although different) nature of the two (hypothetically) "Identical" (although different) will only last as long as the experiences of each are "identical" (even if different). The very fact of one SELF seeing the other on the left and the other seeing the first on the right will be enough to erase the identicality of the two consciousnesses.

Since this is all hypothetical, of course, it does not really matter; not does it do a single thing about presenting evidence that the "soul" exists, and is "immortal".

 

[jond]

- The first glass of milk is white, while the second glass of milk is brown. There is a cause for the difference -- chocolate was added to the second glass of milk.
- There has to be a cause for the difference between the SELVES produced by two identical brains.

The first glass of milk is white, while the second glass of milk is also white. What is the difference between them?

 

[Giordano]

The first glass of milk is white, while the second glass of milk is also white. What is the difference between them?

I think I've given up on him posting that he understands these points, for whatever reason. But I haven't given up on pointing out the errors in his arguments.
Great question by the way!

 

[xtifr]

- The first glass of milk is white, while the second glass of milk is brown. There is a cause for the difference -- chocolate was added to the second glass of milk.

That's why the milk is brown. That's not why the glasses are different. They're different because they're not the same.

Is there a "cause" for why two is different from one? Or why happy is different from sad? No, they just are. You can point to causes for the things that happen to be different (there's a cause for whiteness and a cause for brownness; a cause for happiness and a cause for sadness), but that is, at best, an indirect cause for the differences. And for some differences, you can't point to a cause, because nothing causes. e.g., the numbers one or two. They just are.

In any case, even if the milk was the same color in both glasses—even if the milk was atom-for-atom identical between the two glasses—they'd still be different. Two identical things are different from each other because they're not the same thing. Two is different from one.

Not being the same is always and invariably the only direct cause of two different things being different.

- There has to be a cause for the difference between the SELVES produced by two identical brains.

Yes there is, and it's a simple one: the brains are different. They're not the same brain, so they're different brains, so they produce different SELVES.

This is really not a difficult concept.

 

[Loss Leader]

- The first glass of milk is white, while the second glass of milk is brown. There is a cause for the difference -- chocolate was added to the second glass of milk.
- There has to be a cause for the difference between the SELVES produced by two identical brains.

The first glass of milk is white. The second glass of milk is white. There is a cause for the difference - they exist in separate places, made of separate molecules, and were poured at different times.

Yet both have the quality of milkiness. Is the quality of milkiness in the first glass different or distinct from the quality of milkiness in the second glass? Probably not because how the heck does one measure the milkiness of milk? They have the same quality yet are not the same glass of milk.

 

[PixyMisa]

- The first glass of milk is white, while the second glass of milk is brown. There is a cause for the difference -- chocolate was added to the second glass of milk.
- There has to be a cause for the difference between the SELVES produced by two identical brains.

Have you considered that the fact that there are TWO BRAINS might be significant here?

Two brains, two minds. If the brains are identical and receiving identical data (which is of course not possible) then the minds will be identical, but there will still be two of them.

This is not complicated, Jabba. Two-year-olds can grasp this level of arithmetic. Why do you have so much difficulty?

 

[godless dave]

- The first glass of milk is white, while the second glass of milk is brown. There is a cause for the difference -- chocolate was added to the second glass of milk.
- There has to be a cause for the difference between the SELVES produced by two identical brains.

What difference?

 

[Humots]

- There has to be a cause for the difference between the SELVES produced by two identical brains.

What I believe most everyone is saying is that there is no difference between the SELVES produced by two identical brains until their experiences diverge.

Your claim is that there is an initial, innate difference of some kind between the SELVES produced by two identical brains.

What is this difference?

What is your evidence for your claim?

 

[Akhenaten]

Duplicate.

I see what you did there. How is that post different from your last post?

One was a duplicate and the other was a DUPLICATE.

 

[Butter!]

Now, don't be duplicitous.

 

[Mojo]

- There has to be a cause for the difference between the SELVES produced by two identical brains.

You're begging the question again.

 

[Pixel42]

There has to be a cause for the difference between the SELVES produced by two identical brains.

The only difference between the selves is their spacetime coordinates. The cause of that difference is the fact that there are two of them, because there are two brains.

 

[xtifr]

Two brains, two minds. If the brains are identical and receiving identical data (which is of course not possible) then the minds will be identical, but there will still be two of them.

Sure it's possible. (Or, at least, no less possible than making perfect copies of people.) Put the original and the copy into isolated, environmentally controlled, identical settings, and they could probably behave identically for an indefinite amount of time. Which could be an entertaining, if cruel, experiment to run.

What I believe most everyone is saying is that there is no difference between the SELVES produced by two identical brains until their experiences diverge.

Indeed, even subjectively, there'd be no difference. If you woke up to find a perfect copy of yourself lying in your bed beside you, you'd have absolutely no way of telling which was the original. You'd feel like the original, whether or not you were the copy. Your sense of self, your consciousness, and everything else would be perfectly identical with the other's. Subjectively, you'd be you, no matter which you you were.

 

[pakeha]

- The first glass of milk is white, while the second glass of milk is brown. There is a cause for the difference -- chocolate was added to the second glass of milk.
- There has to be a cause for the difference between the SELVES produced by two identical brains.

No, Jabba, it seems you've entirely misunderstood how self, or more correctly, the sense of self, is an emergent property of a functioning neurosystem.

Why compare an emergent property with a glass of milk?

 

[Agatha]

This is tremendously frustrating.

A glass of milk is a tangible thing, Jabba. An emergent property is a process.

Two identical brains - something which is only possible as a thought experiment - would have two identical-but-separate senses of self. Both would have all the memories, thoughts and feelings that would lead each one to believe that they were the original rather than the copy. Nobody, including the original and the copy, would be able to identify which was which.

But since all this is a hypothetical and a diversion from the subject of immortality, is it possible that you could progress to some discussion of evidence that any part of a person's sense of self (an emergent property of their functioning neurosystem) can continue after death of that person?

In answering that question, you may want to consider whether any part of one of the emergent properties of the legs of Pheidippedes* - his running - has survived his death. Other people may run, and indeed they may run from Marathon to Athens, but even if their every movement matched Pheidippedes' movements exactly, their running is not his running.

*Yes, I know his particular 246km run is probably legend rather than fact.