Proof/falsification of god.

[Jekyll]

3) The evidence must be overwhelming, like Miss Anthrope's example. Every single sick person in the world suddenly being healed - and any injury over the next period of time also being healed. With a voiceover of "By my will be healed!" or something like that. Everyone who had broken the biblical laws being crisped by a pillar of hellfire and a voiceover "be punished by my will sinner!".

So burning then healing or healing then burning for the sick sinners?

 

[Beerina]

No good. Pi is an irrational number, meaning that it goes on for an infinite number of digits, selected pretty much at random. Because of its randomness and infinite length, ANY string of digits you would like to propose - no matter how long or unusual your string of digits is - MUST occur somewhere within Pi. Of course, you might have to go trillions and trillions of digits deep, but it'll be there.

The point of Sagan was that, although it was billions of digits out, that was still far too soon statistically to see a geometric drawing, much less several of them.

Given the way the book was written, there were probably harder messages encoded, both in ways to extract, and, in this case, in the distance of # of digits -- like the "next step" would be a quadrillion digits out, requiring decated of computer improvements, while the one after that might be a quarter of a googol digits out, requiring still more advances.

 

[Beerina]

I don't think it is possible to say MUST occur, but is highly likely to occur.

For some idea of this see http://pi.nersc.gov/ While this is still only representation of some of Pi, if even in that amount, some strings do not occur, I am willing to believe its only a probably thing, not a necessary.

For example "jamesrandi" does not appear in the first four billion digits of Pi

Nor would you expect to. "jamesrandi" is 10 letters long, and that would mean there are 26 to the 10th power such combinations, or 141,167,095,653,376.

With four billion digits, you would have, at most, four billion different sequences (which can start at any digit and would overlap). What this translates into is any random 10 letter sequence has only a 1 in 35291 chance of appearing.

Actually the math above is messed up a bit, since we're talking about number digits for the sequence and letter ones for randi, but the odds remain astronomical.

 

[drkitten]

Nor would you expect to .

See "point, unicity." See also Shannon, Claude E. (passim).

 

[Beerina]

A 14 billion year old, self-running process would convince me. But the problem is, it is hard to give proof without throwing off the cosmic plan. If the truth was given to you directly, you would have a problem convincing everyone else. If it were given to everyone, there is the risk of losing control of the personal direction of ones life.

I'll put up with people losing a need for personal direction in their lives, given the alternative involves, among other things, the rape and murder of children.

I highly suspect so would most people.

Absolute knowledge of an afterlife, may cheapen this one.

Perhaps, see above. But I know torture and murder and the pain of disease definitely cheapen this life in the sense that it appears to be just some academic experiment by a god. After all, if you're rewarded for being kind to the sick and poor by being placed in a heaven where there are no sick and poor, wasn't the whole thing a colossal waste of time?

 

[Beerina]

Also, it is impossible to find e in pi

If it were, it could be written as follows:

pi = c * e + a, where a and c are finite real numbers. In other words, their relationship would be linear, and I believe the formula actually relating them is not linear.

 

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

I'll put up with people losing a need for personal direction in their lives, given the alternative involves, among other things, the rape and murder of children.

I highly suspect so would most people.

Do you think that God revealing itself will stop all that? We will still be people, and some here have said that they would not accept anything as proof. And if God put "goodness" in the mind of all, most would cease to be who they are, we would truely have a world full of puppets.

Perhaps, see above. But I know torture and murder and the pain of disease definitely cheapen this life in the sense that it appears to be just some academic experiment by a god.

I think that those things also challenges life, but again, we would still be the same people, and I think the experiment has to do with individual choice.

After all, if you're rewarded for being kind to the sick and poor by being placed in a heaven where there are no sick and poor, wasn't the whole thing a colossal waste of time?

I don't believe in the heavenly reward thing. The person would still be who they, and their conditions, made them. I for one, would miss being able to go to the "red light district."

 

[thaiboxerken]

Do you think that God revealing itself will stop all that?

Probably not, since gods tend to encourage this behavior, according to the holy books.

We will still be people, and some here have said that they would not accept anything as proof.

I doubt it. Can you quote anyone saying that they would accept no evidence?

And if God put "goodness" in the mind of all, most would cease to be who they are, we would truely have a world full of puppets.

But it sure would be peaceful.

 

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

Probably not, since gods tend to encourage this behavior, according to the holy books.

I agree. Sacrifices, tests of loyality, "worship only me," none seem as perfect as they are billed to be. But then, that is men talking for their God. They say HE is perfect, and not perfect, almost in the same breath. I don't believe them. No self respecting God would need the stuff that they say HE does.

I doubt it. Can you quote anyone saying that they would accept no evidence?

Yes, I think he even said he wouldn't accept any. I don't hold him to it though. My point was, that there would be lots of people who wouldn't. Even if there is an afterlife, and a God there, there would be people who were taught, not to accept anything unless it is what they were told was there.

But it sure would be peaceful.

Yes, it would be that, though I think free will would be too high a price.

 

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

Hmm. If there is a formula which can work out any digit within PI then it's not, by definition, random. You could call it pseudo-random, perhaps.

To be impressive, a message would really have to start from the beginning of PI onwards.

Wouldn't a message "meant for all" have to be simple enough for all to understand? Something that can't be faked, and clearly visible? If only some can understand it, how can the rest of us be sure that they will "deliver it?"

 

[Beerina]

Wouldn't a message "meant for all" have to be simple enough for all to understand? Something that can't be faked, and clearly visible? If only some can understand it, how can the rest of us be sure that they will "deliver it?"

No, which was Carl Sagan's point in Contact. More complicated messages that require higher brainpower to decode were placed precisely to keep savage nations and peoples away from it -- they were the ones that still behaved in primative, murderous manners.

I would also like to point out what many have pointed out over the years -- that the "messages" that religious hucksters heave out are typically rather inane and simple-minded. This is evidence against them being anything special, no matter how peaceful and loving the message.

Tell us something new that we'd have to work to prove -- like a simple cure for cancer. Or the fifty trillionth digit of pi, base seventy three, not counting the 3. Something useful.

 

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

No, which was Carl Sagan's point in Contact. More complicated messages that require higher brainpower to decode were placed precisely to keep savage nations and peoples away from it -- they were the ones that still behaved in primative, murderous manners.

That makes sense, "keep out of reach of children," and hope the adults have more sense.

I would also like to point out what many have pointed out over the years -- that the "messages" that religious hucksters heave out are typically rather inane and simple-minded. This is evidence against them being anything special, no matter how peaceful and loving the message.

Special can be placed in what they do with it, though of course, that is a judgement call.

Tell us something new that we'd have to work to prove -- like a simple cure for cancer. Or the fifty trillionth digit of pi, base seventy three, not counting the 3. Something useful.

Help like that would be better coming from an alien race instead of a creator. The alien race could just be more advanced, but a message of the creator could send people in a search for a method everywhere. It could make them second guess their own decisions too much.

 

[The Grave]

I think therefore I think I am...is the idea!

Quote...
That despite the size of the sun and the moon, that they appear the same size. That they line up just right to put on a show with a near perfect fit. And that "the show" probably helped to influence observation, study, and measurement of those two bodies, and time itself.
I am not saying it is a sign (or that it isn't) but as signs go, blocking out the sun is pretty good.

They "appear" the same size? They "line up just right" for a show? With " a near perfect fit"?

And if you want to block out the Sun, all you do is raise your hand...thus!

Wow, look mom, my hand is the same size as the Sun, and pa's little finger, too! Must have been designed...

Griff...You'd expect a "perfect" fit from a god, not near perfect...

And as for an after life...well every suicide bomber, is one less faither!

 

[Yiab]

First, to the math.

No good. Pi is an irrational number, meaning that it goes on for an infinite number of digits, selected pretty much at random. Because of its randomness and infinite length, ANY string of digits you would like to propose - no matter how long or unusual your string of digits is - MUST occur somewhere within Pi. Of course, you might have to go trillions and trillions of digits deep, but it'll be there.

You know what else is an irrational number? Any infinite non-repeating string of 0s and 1s interpreted as a decimal number. Clearly such an irrational number will not have any string involving digits other than 0 or 1 anywhere in its written form.

For example "jamesrandi" does not appear in the first four billion digits of Pi

Also, it is impossible to find e in pi

Actually, "jamesrandi" does appear in the first four billion digits countless times... given the right encoding schemes.
Also, "finding e in pi" in what sense? Are you saying that listing all the prime numbered digits of pi when written in base 187, rewriting that number into base 7, then selecting every digit after the decimal that sits at a perfect number location except for the 28th won't give e in base 13?

You wouldn't be the least bit shocked if pi started going into patterns... first 100 primes.... first 100 binary numbers... .first 100 fibonacci numbers... etc. then the pattern gets repeated... .followed by a vast list of 0s and 1s which then appear to be some alien universal mathematical language?

And then, you found this same pattern at the exact same point in other constant numbers?

I would be extremely surprised, considering that this is mathematically impossible. pi and e are not algebraic over each other, there can be no such pattern present in reasonably expressible similar points in them.

Now, to god. In order for me to believe in god, no evidence or structure in the universe would be sufficient - there is no experience I can ever have that would not be equally explainable by the hallucination hypothesis. That is not to say that I can never be convinced, however.
What it would take for me to believe in god would be two things. First, I would need a definition of the term "god" which is, as far as I can tell, logically, ontologically, physically and epistemologically internally consistent. Second, I would need time to think about it, consider a large variety of possibilities, get used to the idea and assimilate it into my thought processes.
Of course, given the first condition the second would come naturally. The first condition could be delivered by another person, by text randomly found on the internet, or by spontaneous personal inspiration, in fact any method of communication which I can interpret works fine.

I agree completely that my requirements do not prove the existence of the god so referenced, but consistency would be sufficient for me to put serious consideration into belief.

Oh yes, I'd also like to say hello to everyone here as this is my first post.

 

[Hokulele]

Welcome Yiab!

At least you didn't start off in the train wreck of the 432 thread over in Science.

 

[CapelDodger]

First, to the math.

[snip]

Now, to god ...

And a big Hi! from me .