Pronouns in Signature

[arthwollipot]

The fact the number of people picking random pronouns is very small, is no justification for everyone else having to put their chosen pronouns in the email signatures.

But by all means, feel free to give me evidence otherwise.

What is wrong with just people who for some reason get paranoid of a pronoun used for them that might be wrong, which they will never know as they aren't present, just doing the signature thing (opt-in) and I and every other person will try to do it, if we remember, while leaving everyone else to live their lives doing things that are actually important?

I've already agreed that making pronouns in signatures mandatory is problematic, and Sherkeu has outlined one very good reason why. So exactly what are you arguing with?

 

[cullennz]

I've already agreed that making pronouns in signatures mandatory is problematic, and Sherkeu has outlined one very good reason why. So exactly what are you arguing with?

I am not.

You are the person who quoted me and called me "stubborn".


Maybe you could specifically say what you think I am wrong over?


Edit: What "you" think I am wrong over.

 

[arthwollipot]

I am not.

You are the person who quoted me and called me "stubborn".


Maybe you could specifically say what you think I am wrong over?

How much time have we got? Let's start with the two particularly relevant ones:

You're wrong to repeatedly cite alt pronouns as an objection to using correct pronouns.

You're also wrong in believing the fact that people never use someone's pronouns to their face is an objection to using correct pronouns.

I've explained why you're wrong in these two cases on several occasions. Your continuing to persist in these two behaviours is what I am referring to as stubbornness.

 

[cullennz]

How much time have we got? Let's start with the two particularly relevant ones:

You're wrong to repeatedly cite alt pronouns as an objection to using correct pronouns.

You're also wrong in believing the fact that people never use someone's pronouns to their face is an objection to using correct pronouns.

I've explained why you're wrong in these two cases on several occasions. Your continuing to persist in these two behaviours is what I am referring to as stubbornness.

The second point I haven't even said.

And I have never said I wouldn't use them.

Just that I tend not to and use peoples names.

 

[arthwollipot]

The second point I haven't even said.

And I have never said I wouldn't use them.

Just that I tend not to and use peoples names.

I bet you don't. I'll bet you use pronouns all the time. Probably without even noticing. But guess what? You'll notice them now.

 

[cullennz]

I bet you don't. I'll bet you use pronouns all the time. Probably without even noticing. But guess what? You'll notice them now.

I said I use their name first (as it would be a bit stupid trying to say who you are talking about)

And then they" (I assumed you get this might also be "them" or "their" and I didn't have to list them all)

Not sure why this is so difficult to get your head around.

 

[cullennz]

Obviously I would try to make allowances if they insisted on one of these made up ones, or any other random thing.

It isn't too hard to remember

Just don't ask me to put more effort into it

 

[arthwollipot]

Obviously I would try to make allowances if they insisted on one of these made up ones, or any other random thing.

It isn't too hard to remember

Just don't ask me to put more effort into it

Once again, and I don't know how to get you to acknowledge this, the number of people who insist on alt pronouns is vanishingly small. In the vast majority of cases they/them/their will get you by.

The plethora of alt pronouns is not an argument against using someone's correct pronouns, so I don't know why you continually bring it up in every discussion about pronouns. It's a distraction, a red herring, an irrelevancy.

 

[cullennz]

Once again, and I don't know how to get you to acknowledge this, the number of people who insist on alt pronouns is vanishingly small. In the vast majority of cases they/them/their will get you by.

The plethora of alt pronouns is not an argument against using someone's correct pronouns, so I don't know why you continually bring it up in every discussion about pronouns. It's a distraction, a red herring, an irrelevancy.

Which bit of I would try to do you not seem to get?

I even said it in the post you are actually quoting ffs

"Obviously I would try to make allowances if they insisted on one of these made up ones"

Just don't expect me to get into the weirdness and start including them in "my" email signature.

Seriously

I have said this about 5 times

 

[arthwollipot]

Which bit of I would try to do you not seem to get?

I even said it in the post you are actually quoting ffs

"Obviously I would try to make allowances if they insisted on one of these made up ones"

Just don't expect me to get into the weirdness and start including them in "my" email signature.

Seriously

I have said this about 5 times

And you have also brought up alt pronouns in practically every discussion about pronoun use, saying "oh, well if they insist on dumb made up **** bla bla" (that last part varies). Why do you keep doing that?

 

[cullennz]

And you have also brought up alt pronouns in practically every discussion about pronoun use, saying "oh, well if they insist on dumb made up **** bla bla" (that last part varies). Why do you keep doing that?

Because me trying if I remember to call someone the right thing if they make some stupid term up doesn't change the fact I think that it is incredibly infantile, stupid and frankly laughable.

But hey. If that is their big issue in their life, I am willing to go with the flow.

Disclaimer: As long as they aren't a complete prick in person, where I would basically ignore it.

JUST DON"T EXPECT ME TO START PARADING MINE.

 

[arthwollipot]

Because me trying if I remember to call someone the right thing if they make some stupid term up doesn't change the fact I think that it is incredibly infantile, stupid and frankly laughable.

But as I have repeatedly pointed out, that will probably never happen, so I don't know why you're obsessing over it.

But hey. If that is their big issue in their life, I am willing to go with the flow.

Nice. Thanks, I guess.

Disclaimer: As long as they aren't a complete prick in person, where I would basically ignore it.

Fair enough. I'm less inclined to acquiesce to the requests of pricks too.

JUST DON"T EXPECT ME TO START PARADING MINE.

Why not? And why so vehement as to use all caps about it?

 

[cullennz]

But as I have repeatedly pointed out, that will probably never happen, so I don't know why you're obsessing over it.

I'm not.

I just had to keep saying it because you refused to acknowledge I had said I would use them

Nice. Thanks, I guess.

Fair enough. I'm less inclined to acquiesce to the requests of pricks too.

Why not? And why so vehement as to use all caps about it?

TBF the caps were over kill but given the last accusations, thought I should highlight the point.

Why is because, while I have the patience to put up with peoples strange traits to an extent, it doesn't mean they can make me join in their group love in.

It is a bit like religion again.

I am cool with people into it, preaching it, having rational codebates about it, but don't expect me to respect it or actually hang out in their church.

I personally think the whole "you have to join our club too!) thing is basically some kind of weird need for validation.

And people like the bosses the OPer works for seem to jump on the bandwagon.

 

[Elagabalus]

Don't worry. It won't be long before employers "request" that you include this information, and more, as well.

Quit melting on my shoe, snowflake.

 

[Darat]

That's a helpful and well-articulated perspective that I will try to consider carefully. Thank you.

However, there is a prevailing thinking that this is just a tiny thing (adding pronouns) and even if it only helps a small number of people, why not do it since it costs you nothing. What I'm trying to express is that my gut response made me aware that I felt this was costing me something. And I'm trying to explore and understand what I felt it was costing me and why that is valuable to me. Some may well feel that something as small as this is not too much to ask for the benefit of those who may be vulnerable and feel very strongly about their pronouns and gender identify. However there are also those who feel strongly about the value of their current cultural norms and for whom the change (particularly mandated) makes them feel vulnerable.

Also, as I have mentioned, I think choosing pronouns as a "priority of the day" is odd/arbitrary.

I’m going to be brave and tell you that I think you are misunderstanding your own feelings!

I think it is the change that is bothering you and you are trying to understand why you feel that disquiet and have in effect “rationalised” the discomfort change often creates in us rather than understanding it is the fact that something has changed - no matter what the change is - that is causing the discomfort.

We are as a species conservative in our behaviours, once we’ve learned something we really don’t want it to change.

I’m now more convinced then ever - and entirely from my personal knowledge - that we all tend to do this i.e. there is a change and rather than recognising “oh right a change I’m going to have an emotional discomfort because it is a change” we look for a another “reason” to explain the discomfort.

These days when I learn about a change I try to school myself with a “OK it’s a change so that is going to make me uncomfortable and I don’t need to have another reason for that discomfort”.

I think a lot of the social issues we have arise because people have rationalised a reason for the discomfort a change causes rather than a true reason for objecting to what is being changed.

 

[Darat]

It's important to point out that jurisprudence in the US is moving towards making workplace hostility and discrimination towards trans people unlawful. There's probably a very good business reason to start adopting these kinds of policies, and I wouldn't be surprised if gender identity non-discrimination starts showing up as explicit corporate policy in the near future, even for mainstream companies. Coming to a long, tedious yearly corporate compliance training near you!

HR is getting out in front to mitigate the risk of sex discrimination lawsuits filed by trans employees. Given how rabid the transphobes are becoming, I suspect this is going to a be a recurring and expensive problem, just as anti-women or anti-gay discrimination have been.

personally looking forward to more bigots that get ****-canned for being a bigot at work. Those are always fun stories with top-tier discourse.

I think the larger companies tend to be a bit ahead of the curve, when I worked at a large USA corporation they had HR policies in place regarding discrimination against homosexuals and benefits could be passed onto same sex partners and this was quite some time before the law in the UK included homosexuality in anti-discrimination legislation or even civil partnerships.

 

[cullennz]

I’m going to be brave and tell you that I think you are misunderstanding your own feelings!

I think it is the change that is bothering you and you are trying to understand why you feel that disquiet and have in effect “rationalised” the discomfort change often creates in us rather than understanding it is the fact that something has changed - no matter what the change is - that is causing the discomfort.

We are as a species conservative in our behaviours, once we’ve learned something we really don’t want it to change.

I’m now more convinced then ever - and entirely from my personal knowledge - that we all tend to do this i.e. there is a change and rather than recognising “oh right a change I’m going to have an emotional discomfort because it is a change” we look for a another “reason” to explain the discomfort.

These days when I learn about a change I try to school myself with a “OK it’s a change so that is going to make me uncomfortable and I don’t need to have another reason for that discomfort”.

I think a lot of the social issues we have arise because people have rationalised a reason for the discomfort a change causes rather than a true reason for objecting to what is being changed.

Darat

Why should people with non weird pronouns have to add them to their email signature?

Both in a practicality sense and/or logical?

Or what ever reason you have?

If it helps. Making a few people feel warm and fuzzy doesn't really do it for me.

 

[Darat]

Darat

Why should people with non weird pronouns have to add them to their email signature?

Both in a practicality sense and/or logical?

Or what ever reason you have?

If it helps. Making a few people feel warm and fuzzy doesn't really do it for me.

Why quote my post since you aren’t addressing anything I said in the post?

 

[cullennz]

Why quote my post since you aren’t addressing anything I said in the post?

I assumed by change you were referring to the thread topic which was email signatures.

And trying to say it is just a change that needs to be adapted to.

I apologise for not realising you were talking off topic.

I could add this is something (off topic) I tend to get binned for 48 hours for by one person, but that would probably get me in trouble and not sure if you are still a mod.

So I will avoid mentioning emails and signatures

 

[Roboramma]

I have two middle names, which has often caused me trouble on official forms.

I have a middle name, which is recorded on my passport.

But in China there's no where to put your middle name on forms (for instance when buying an airplane ticket). On the other hand, I'm supposed to include my middle name, as the name should be the same as on my passport...

The solution is to just write my first and middle names together without a space in between (no spaces allowed). It always looks weird to me.