Professor charged with incest

The issue for a case like this should be about consent (and any coercion) not the fact that they are biologically related.

This is my feeling also, in an ideal world- but, it is my understanding (from talking with friends who have been on Childrens' panels) that brother sister incest is most common, often involves coercion and also often involves mentally handicapped siblings. Given the probability of heritable mental problems, this has a high probability of becoming a self-reinforcing problem across generations.

While I would support the right of two mentally competent adults to live in a legal incestuous relationship, I doubt most cases really are like that.
 
From everything I've heard (including people I know), most parent/child sex happens when the child is a minor. So while pedophilia and parent/child incest may not be axiomatically connected, there definitely appears to be a real-world correlation. Given that sex between consenting adults is rather easy to hide and a rather low enforcement priority, there's no reason to think that legalization of adult incest would change that correlation either. If a few adults who only developed a sexual attraction to their children after their children reach adulthood are denied carnal satisfaction, I can live with that. So can they, in fact.

Some people draw a line between sex with prepubescent children and sex with pubescent children, with only the former being labeled pedophilia and the latter called hebephilia or ephebophilia. These distinctions are not relevant to my argument, and in fact I never used any of these terms in my previous posts. So I'm taking your introduction of the term pedophile to mean broadly an adult who has sex with a minor with a significant age gap (so not including an 18 year old who has sex with a 17 year old), because otherwise your response wouldn't make sense.
What you have seen is that having sex with your child when it is young may lead to having sex with it as an adult. This does indeed mean that having sex with a child as an adult makes it more likely that you have had sex with it as a child. However, you are confusing correlation with causation, as this does not indicate that someone who would have sex with an adult child would automatically be more likely to want to have sex with a young child, just that someone who had sex with a young child in the first place would take this habit into adulthood.

Thus, your argument holds no water.


Well, yes. Unless it's fraternal twins, many of the same problems exist. And if it's unfair that fraternal twins can't legally have sex with each other, well, they'll just have to suffer the terrible injustice of it.

What problems? Siblings raising each other to have sex with them?
 
What you have seen is that having sex with your child when it is young may lead to having sex with it as an adult. This does indeed mean that having sex with a child as an adult makes it more likely that you have had sex with it as a child.

Indeed, but that's not what I'm claiming. I'm saying that legalization of adult child-parent sex may increase the risk of minor parent-child sex. Yes, parents can't travel back in time, but they can consider the future.

However, you are confusing correlation with causation, as this does not indicate that someone who would have sex with an adult child would automatically be more likely to want to have sex with a young child

Again, that's not my argument. Rather, parents who want to have sex with their minor children may be more likely to do so if they know that such sex will be legal when the child reaches adulthood.

Thus, your argument holds no water.

You'll have to try again, because you didn't get my argument right the first time.

What problems? Siblings raising each other to have sex with them?

Siblings using their power difference in order to have sex with younger siblings. Parents aren't the only people who have power over minor children.
 
I do for the sake of the potential children born out of incest.

The rate of birth defects is higher for people who have children when the parents are over 40.

ETA: If qayak is right, my stats might be wrong. I suspect that if first cousin marriages have a risk equal to 40 year olds, then sibling or parent-child incest has a higher rate. Must look it up.
 
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Also

If the only crime being considered here is 'incest', then why wasn't the daughter charged?

[speculation]She may be after all. But they might offer her immunity in exchange for testimony. This would necessarily involve the threat of charging her if she doesn't testify. Unless she's the one who reported it to the police in the first place.[/speculation]

A lot of information has not been made public yet that I know of. Like what is their evidence and who did they get it from.
 
[speculation]She may be after all. But they might offer her immunity in exchange for testimony. This would necessarily involve the threat of charging her if she doesn't testify. Unless she's the one who reported it to the police in the first place.[/speculation]

A lot of information has not been made public yet that I know of. Like what is their evidence and who did they get it from.

It might also be that the wife/mother reported it in the course of the divorce proceedings.
 
The rate of birth defects is higher for people who have children when the parents are over 40.

ETA: If qayak is right, my stats might be wrong. I suspect that if first cousin marriages have a risk equal to 40 year olds, then sibling or parent-child incest has a higher rate. Must look it up.

It is tough to find stats on that. No one seems to want to study it but are willing to study cousins.

I found the article on more distant cousins very interesting. Apparently, that is the safest for offspring, third and fourth cousin marriages.
 
Indeed, but that's not what I'm claiming. I'm saying that legalization of adult child-parent sex may increase the risk of minor parent-child sex. Yes, parents can't travel back in time, but they can consider the future.

Again, that's not my argument. Rather, parents who want to have sex with their minor children may be more likely to do so if they know that such sex will be legal when the child reaches adulthood.

You'll have to try again, because you didn't get my argument right the first time.
Except your entire argument was based on the fact (I presume it is a fact) that most parent-child sex happens when the child is a minor. This says a lot about the methods pedophiles may use to get victims, but nothing at all about consenting adults.


Siblings using their power difference in order to have sex with younger siblings. Parents aren't the only people who have power over minor children.
Minor children? You're the one who keeps bringing up minors. I'm talking about consenting adults.
 
Minor children? You're the one who keeps bringing up minors. I'm talking about consenting adults.

I know you're talking about consenting adults. But what you allow adults to do will affect what happens to children. You may not intend that, but that doesn't stop it.
 
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It is tough to find stats on that. No one seems to want to study it but are willing to study cousins.

I would imagine that even if you wanted to study it, getting large enough sample sizes to do good statistics would be rather difficult.
 
I would imagine that even if you wanted to study it, getting large enough sample sizes to do good statistics would be rather difficult.

But, genetically, they shouldn't need a sample at all. They didn't use one with cousins, they used genetic information and calculated the chances statistically.

I have read 50% chance but with nothing to back it up. I heard a geneticist "guess" that it would be about 25% but admitted he had never thought about it.

You'd think that someone would have taken the cousin studies further but there seems to be a taboo about it just like their is about studies on paedophilia.
 
You'd think that someone would have taken the cousin studies further but there seems to be a taboo about it just like their is about studies on paedophilia.

I've seen data from cousin studies. It's very close to what you posted. Of course, exact data is very difficult to come by, but the data I saw was not small sample data. Some cultures have no taboo on cousin marriages, and a significant fraction of marriages are between cousins. I've seen data on prevalence of defects in those cultures, and it's comparable to 40 year old parents.
 
People have been studying the effects of cousin marriages for years. Royalty! It seems pretty evident by now that cousin marriages don't produce problematic offspring any more than non-cousin marriages---provided there aren't multiple cousin marriages going on in the family tree. That narrows down the number of ancestors too much, a thing that's called "pedigree collapse". Wikipedia has a pretty interesting article on that. I especially like this bit:

Most historians consider the House of Habsburg as an example of genetically-induced disease as the direct result of pedigree collapse. The last Habsburg King of Spain, Charles II, makes an instructive case. In anyone's family tree, there are seven unions in the most recent three generations. In Charles' case, there were three uncle-niece marriages among those seven unions. His father and two of his great-grandfathers married their nieces. His paternal grandparents were first cousins, once removed, but they comprised two of the seven marriages because they were also parents to his maternal grandmother. His maternal grandparents' marriage and the final marriage of great-grandparents was between first cousins.

Like most people, the family tree of Elizabeth II to six generations has 62 different people in the 62 different positions. The family tree of Charles II had only 32 different persons in these 62 positions; going back two more generations, he had only 82 different people in the 254 positions. Charles II was born with extensive physical, intellectual and emotional problems and was sterile, a fact which resulted in the War of Spanish Succession. His lineage was so intermarried that he had a higher inbreeding ratio than if he had been born to a brother-sister couple (40.625% to 25%).

I think the lesson with cousin marriages is that an occasional one doesn't hurt, but the more cousin marriages there were in their ancestral line, the more likely it is to be problematic.
 
The main reason he gives here is that incest breaks the conservative view of what a family should be, which "violates the natural order" and "messes up the kids". But any first year anthropology course will teach you that there are and have been many, many functional systems of kinship relations and family units that are significantly different from the "mom, dad, kids" structure this article claims is natural and necessary. Is there evidence that children raised in an environment where incestuous relationships occur are "messed up" and "disoriented" like this article is claiming?

I AM an anthropology grad student, and one of the first things we learned is that virutally every human culture has some sort of incest taboo (though as has already been established, what is designated as "incest" varies from one culture to another. I.E. for some cultures cousins are considered incest, in other cultures they aren't). And incest taboos against IMMEDIATE family members are pretty universal, especially when it comes to parent/child relationships. Obviously there are exceptions, but taboos against incest with immediate family, especially between children and parents, are simply one of the most universal social rules in human civilization.

And in general, people in positions of authority are not allowed to enter into sexual relationships with people they are in positions of authority over because it is too easy to manipulate the person they hold authority over. A doctor can't have sex with their patient. A professor can't have sex with their student. And likewise, a parent can't have sex with their child, even an adult child, because even as adults parents are in positions of authority over, and has been stated before, there is such as an inherent risk of adults grooming their children for such a relationship while still developing minors.

So obviously, birth defects for potential offspring are a major concern when it comes to incest laws, but the general rules we have against authority figures being able to date/have sex with people they have authority over also come into play.


From a legal perspective, I imagine the argument is that even though a patient and doctor, a child and parent, etc, CAN possibly have a relationship which is truly consentual and not influenced by the authority figure's position of power, the risk of abuse/manipulation is great enough that whoever instilled the rules/laws concerning such relationships have decided it's more important to protect potential victims than to protect the rights of people who genuinely enter into such relationships without any sort of abuse of power. I'm not a legal person, so I don't know for sure, but that's just my guess.
 
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