Prof. Jones: Thermate on a Chip?

[leftysergeant]

I have checked out several types of paint and primers to see if any of them matched the composition of these chips. There are paints that contain iron oxides and feldspars, which would include k-feldspars (thus accounting for the silicon and potassiunm in Jones' sample) as a filler.

I cannot get the formula for the proprietary pigment in Tenmec primer, which was that used on the steel of the towers, at this time,so I cannot totally rule that out as a source of those elements, but it seems less likely, seeing that the filler was diatomaceous earth, nearly pure silca. There may have been aluminum oxide and some potassium compound in the pigment, but that would be speculative.

This does not rule out that there were fire extinguishers and such painted with a red oxide paint that does use a feldspathic filler. There were, without question, a few of those ground up in the collapses.

I seem to recall, as well, reading of a powder coating being applied to some extinguisher cyclinders before they are painted. That would be another source of aluminum.

This is, of course, also speculative, though well within the realm of possibility.

As I have noted before, their shape, thickness and fragility do suggest paint chips, and paint chips are to be expected in the dust.

 

[Apollo20]

I think it is important to keep in mind the RELATIVE AMOUNTS of the materials that were in the Twin Towers. The dust was over 70 % concrete, gypsum and various types of insulation. We know there were plenty of other things in the dust as well, but we have to be realistic about how much would have been in the dust as a percentage of the total.

Thus on a PER FLOOR basis we had, very roughly, about 600 tons of concrete, 100 tons of gypsum and insulation, 20 tons of glass, 10 tons of paper and cardboard, 5 tons of PVC, etc, etc......

Based on these numbers I would say we need TON QUANTITIES PER FLOOR of a material to have a hope (in hell!) of finding it in significant quantities in the dust. Consider, for example Chainsaw's suggestion that ink toner contains iron spheres. Now how many ink toner cartridges would there have been on a typical WTC floor? Let's say 100. Now if each cartridge contains 1 kg of iron that is only 100 kg per floor. Are we likely to find that in 1000 tons of dust from that floor?

I have had a stab at calulating the mass of primer paint on the structural steel. I get numbers less than 50 kg per floor. Now how much of that was scraped off during the collapse? Let's say 20 % ..... then we have 10 kg of primer paint chips in 1000 tons of dust, or only 10 parts per million!

Now suppose Jones' little bag of dust was 100 g. Then it would contain about 1 mg of primer paint chips.

 

[Dave Rogers]

I think it is important to keep in mind the RELATIVE AMOUNTS of the materials that were in the Twin Towers. The dust was over 70 % concrete, gypsum and various types of insulation. We know there were plenty of other things in the dust as well, but we have to be realistic about how much would have been in the dust as a percentage of the total.

This is a good point, and of course it's equally true of thermite. Has Jones published any estimates of the abundance of these chips in his dust sample, though? That in itself would be useful to suggest a possible origin, or to examine the validity of thermite theories. Given the amount of time he's had to sift through these samples, I wouldn't be surprised to find that he's down to fractions at the 10ppm level.

Dave

 

[metamars]

This is a good point, and of course it's equally true of thermite. Has Jones published any estimates of the abundance of these chips in his dust sample, though? That in itself would be useful to suggest a possible origin, or to examine the validity of thermite theories. Given the amount of time he's had to sift through these samples, I wouldn't be surprised to find that he's down to fractions at the 10ppm level.

Dave

I would. Have you seen the video of him extracting magnetic material from the dust in a baggy? If most of that stuff is chips, 10ppm seems most unlikely.

OTOH, as this dust is lighter, more 'settled out' than larger bits of mass, you'd have to try and calculate expected dust composition as a function of, hmmm, let's call it 'waftiness' (I don't assume it's simply a matter of mass, though that might be a good approximation).

I find it hard to believe that the exact chemical composition cannot, eventually, be determined. Professor Jones has only recently remarked that the grey side does not seem to be plastic, so this suggests that it's too early to rule out paint chips.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I think it is important to keep in mind the RELATIVE AMOUNTS of the materials that were in the Twin Towers. The dust was over 70 % concrete, gypsum and various types of insulation. We know there were plenty of other things in the dust as well, but we have to be realistic about how much would have been in the dust as a percentage of the total.

Thus on a PER FLOOR basis we had, very roughly, about 600 tons of concrete, 100 tons of gypsum and insulation, 20 tons of glass, 10 tons of paper and cardboard, 5 tons of PVC, etc, etc......

Based on these numbers I would say we need TON QUANTITIES PER FLOOR of a material to have a hope (in hell!) of finding it in significant quantities in the dust. Consider, for example Chainsaw's suggestion that ink toner contains iron spheres. Now how many ink toner cartridges would there have been on a typical WTC floor? Let's say 100. Now if each cartridge contains 1 kg of iron that is only 100 kg per floor. Are we likely to find that in 1000 tons of dust from that floor?

I have had a stab at calulating the mass of primer paint on the structural steel. I get numbers less than 50 kg per floor. Now how much of that was scraped off during the collapse? Let's say 20 % ..... then we have 10 kg of primer paint chips in 1000 tons of dust, or only 10 parts per million!

Now suppose Jones' little bag of dust was 100 g. Then it would contain about 1 mg of primer paint chips.

Apollo20,
You also have to include the paper, that was probably stored in an office building that would have had magnetic ink applied.
There is no telling how much of that there was in the buildings, combustion of it would have left residue in the smoke before the towers ever collapsed.

 

[leftysergeant]

We also have to consider the appearance of the chips as opposed to known forms of thermite.

I know of no form of thermite that does not have at least a semi-metallic appearance. These chips appear utterly non-metalic or the red side.

The luster of the grey side does appear to be quite metalic.

Thermite, as far as I know, only works if the aluminum and rust are more or less homogenized. Rust must be directly in contact with aluminum, not just layered with it.

It is unlikely that those which produced the signs of aluminum and silica are the red primer of the structural steel, but they are still consistant with other types of paint chips, as I pointed out, including that used of some fire extinguishes.

Metal pipes in large buildings are sometimes color-coded for quick identification. If we keep thinking, we can come up with a bunch of other possible metal objects and surfaces with red paint, perhaps over powder coating that could or should have been in the building.

So, the physical structure and appearance, as far as i can see, suggest something other than thermite, the color suggests something other than thermite, the luster suggests something other than thermite, their composition, as far as Jones has been able to confirm, includes elements that one would not expect to find in thermite, and there are a lot of sources for red paint chips (which can contain all the elements listed.)

I think logic is still leaning heavily toward paint chips.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

We also have to consider the appearance of the chips as opposed to known forms of thermite.

I know of no form of thermite that does not have at least a semi-metallic appearance. These chips appear utterly non-metalic or the red side.

The luster of the grey side does appear to be quite metalic.

Thermite, as far as I know, only works if the aluminum and rust are more or less homogenized. Rust must be directly in contact with aluminum, not just layered with it.

It is unlikely that those which produced the signs of aluminum and silica are the red primer of the structural steel, but they are still consistant with other types of paint chips, as I pointed out, including that used of some fire extinguishes.

Metal pipes in large buildings are sometimes color-coded for quick identification. If we keep thinking, we can come up with a bunch of other possible metal objects and surfaces with red paint, perhaps over powder coating that could or should have been in the building.

So, the physical structure and appearance, as far as i can see, suggest something other than thermite, the color suggests something other than thermite, the luster suggests something other than thermite, their composition, as far as Jones has been able to confirm, includes elements that one would not expect to find in thermite, and there are a lot of sources for red paint chips (which can contain all the elements listed.)

I think logic is still leaning heavily toward paint chips.

The planes had red iron oxide paint, along with yellow iron oxide and white aluminum oxide.

There are just to many possible sources there are other problems as well having to do with the multifaceted dynamics of the collapse, how do we know the chips are not from burn car paint.
Filing cabinets filled with paper, or steel doors.

 

[metamars]

The planes had red iron oxide paint, along with yellow iron oxide and white aluminum oxide.

There are just to many possible sources there are other problems as well having to do with the multifaceted dynamics of the collapse, how do we know the chips are not from burn car paint.

We don't - not yet, anyway. IIRC, the reason Professor Jones spoke about his discovery prematurely and publicly is to get more people to look into it. Unlike NIST, Professor Jones' budget is $0. As the microspheres and chips have ended up in people's lungs, I have suggested that he appeal to the Union of Concerned Scientists for help in analysis. If anybody has any contacts there, please mention this to them.

As far as the pessimism expressed that the chips can be positively ID'd, I'll bet the boys and girls from CSI could nail this down.

In any event, I believe we need to let the chips fall where they may!

BTW, there's a humorous account of Einstein's angry reaction when a report of a paper he co-authored appeared in the "secular press" before the "appropriate (scientific) forum" in the lecture by Mermin at http://www.princeton.edu/WebMedia/lectures/

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

We don't - not yet, anyway. IIRC, the reason Professor Jones spoke about his discovery prematurely and publicly is to get more people to look into it. Unlike NIST, Professor Jones' budget is $0. As the microspheres and chips have ended up in people's lungs, I have suggested that he appeal to the Union of Concerned Scientists for help in analysis. If anybody has any contacts there, please mention this to them.

As far as the pessimism expressed that the chips can be positively ID'd, I'll bet the boys and girls from CSI could nail this down.

In any event, I believe we need to let the chips fall where they may!

BTW, there's a humorous account of Einstein's angry reaction when a report of a paper he co-authored appeared in the "secular press" before the "appropriate (scientific) forum" in the lecture by Mermin at http://www.princeton.edu/WebMedia/lectures/

So Dr. Jones has the same budget I have to investigate this, Yet I am hearing all kinds of claims of positive proof all over the INTERNET of thermite.

I wonder about all the micro inducers used in electronics back in the late 1990s why that did not come to anyones mind. I mean there were TV. stations and Cell phone providers operating out of the towers that technology would have been is usage.
The technology to imprint both iron oxide and aluminum on silicon was pioneered in the 1950s, I mean come on there is nothing new or exotic about it.

 

[T.A.M.]

We don't - not yet, anyway. IIRC, the reason Professor Jones spoke about his discovery prematurely and publicly is to get more people to look into it. Unlike NIST, Professor Jones' budget is $0. As the microspheres and chips have ended up in people's lungs, I have suggested that he appeal to the Union of Concerned Scientists for help in analysis. If anybody has any contacts there, please mention this to them.

As far as the pessimism expressed that the chips can be positively ID'd, I'll bet the boys and girls from CSI could nail this down.

In any event, I believe we need to let the chips fall where they may!

BTW, there's a humorous account of Einstein's angry reaction when a report of a paper he co-authored appeared in the "secular press" before the "appropriate (scientific) forum" in the lecture by Mermin at http://www.princeton.edu/WebMedia/lectures/

Yes he is so eager to get others to investigate that he has released all of his samples for independent testing by others...right?????

didnt think so.

TAM

 

[metamars]

Yes he is so eager to get others to investigate that he has released all of his samples for independent testing by others...right?????

didnt think so.

TAM

Why would he release all of his samples for independent testing? He is proceeding with analysis, with help from other scientists (he doesn't specify their numbers), so it's not like he and his team are dead in the water.

Tell me, what do you think of my suggestion that he appeal for help from the Union of Concerned Scientists? That would involve turning some of his samples over to them.

 

[Gravy]

Why would the Union of Concerned Scientists bother themselves with such a blatant anti-science charlatan as Jones?

 

[metamars]

Why would the Union of Concerned Scientists bother themselves with such a blatant anti-science charlatan as Jones?

If you were a member of the Union of Concerned Scientists, and if, furthermore, you or a relative of yours had red/gray chips and microspheres in your lungs, would you want to know what the heck they are, regardless of your opinion of Professor Jones?

The suggestion is to study the dust contents, not Professor Jones.

 

[leftysergeant]

Let's go at this from another angle. Jones is probably not the only person holding dust samples. Maybe some of you engineers and chemists know someone who has a sample? Can they be persuaded to look for similar chips in their samples? Maybe do a spectorgraphic exam? Maybe confirm that any paint-like chips red, versus some other color over aluminum?

I recall paint not sticking too well to glossy aluminum. Would there be a primer under the airline livery on an airliner?

Or am I just JAQing off here?

 

[Gravy]

If you were a member of the Union of Concerned Scientists, and if, furthermore, you or a relative of yours had red/gray chips and microspheres in your lungs, would you want to know what the heck they are, regardless of your opinion of Professor Jones?

The suggestion is to study the dust contents, not Professor Jones.

You have evidence that people have red-gray chips in their lungs? I've read a lot about WTC dust and health issues, but never that. The effects of breathing iron particles are known, which is one reason that respirators are recommended equipment for welders.

The dust composition is well known. Steven Jones is a lying douchebag who shouldn't be wasting the time of scientists. If you appreciate his work, then why don't you contribute money to his cause?

 

[FactCheck]

Jones is once again doing this...

He says he has evidence of thermite and the so called "scholars" praise his keen eye without checking to see if it the evidence can hold up to scrutany. They pass their so called evidence in front of debunkers instead of respected scientific journals because they know the evidence is smoke and mirrors. No matter how many times we catch him in a BS his koolaid drunk deciples continue to ask "What about this?" As if there were some other outcome expected from his scam.

Did I just disrespect a professor or a con man. You be the judge...

http://www.debunking911.com/thermite.htm

http://www.debunking911.com/jones.htm

http://www.debunking911.com/moltensteel.htm

 

[metamars]

You have evidence that people have red-gray chips in their lungs?

No, I don't. Are you implying that that dust laden air, containing chips of "typical" size 1 mm x 1 mm x 65 nm, wouldn't be inhaled? If so, please tell us what threshold size would be inhaled, and why such threshold is what it is.

I've read a lot about WTC dust and health issues, but never that. The effects of breathing iron particles are known, which is one reason that respirators are recommended equipment for welders.

The microspheres were not all pure iron.

The dust composition is well known.

Meaning what? That Professor Jones added the chips?

Do tell.

 

[HereticHulk]

Gee, I'm so sorry you feel I was condescending. Please forgive me. Maybe I should just accuse you of criminal neglect as it relates to the murder of 3000 people, you don't seem to have any issues with accusing people of that now do you.

Are you serious!?

Inside Job or not, there is definite criminal neglect involved w/ 9/11. You have to concede that at least!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6KbUpGNBts

 

[Pookster]

No, I don't. Are you implying that that dust laden air, containing chips of "typical" size 1 mm x 1 mm x 65 nm, wouldn't be inhaled? If so, please tell us what threshold size would be inhaled, and why such threshold is what it is.

An argument from ignorance isn't very productive, and it certainly isn't evidence. I suggest putting your agenda aside and stick with using science. Your posts will be much more meaningful to the pursuit of the truth.

It would seem to me that one of the first things to determine is whether these chips were a result of the events on 9/11. One logical step in doing that is to see if these or similar chips show up in other dust samples. Also, you seem to be assuming that some, if not many/all, people were exposed to these chips in the dust they breathed. Could we be looking at the product/byproduct of some event(s) before and/or after 9/11? Could it be the result of a localized event(s)? Is all of this just making a mountain out of a molehill? Inquiring minds want to know.

Has Dr. Jones described how he's approached these kinds of issues? That is, if he has.

Do tell.

 

[T.A.M.]

Why would he release all of his samples for independent testing? He is proceeding with analysis, with help from other scientists (he doesn't specify their numbers), so it's not like he and his team are dead in the water.

Tell me, what do you think of my suggestion that he appeal for help from the Union of Concerned Scientists? That would involve turning some of his samples over to them.

I would say he should turn over SAMPLES of all of his samples for independent analysis to MULTIPLE bodies or entities, for a full independent analysis. I think that the UCS is one entity that should be given samples, but that more than one body should be given such, to confirm the results through repeatability.

TAM