Problems with forgiveness

[Professor Yaffle]

You don't have to forgive someone in order to let things go. You just have to decide that whatever it is, is not worth getting yourself worked up over in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Polaris]

I'll generally hold a grudge until the cockroach goes extinct. Still have an active one since 1991 (5th grade English teacher).

 

[Dinwar]

You don't have to forgive someone in order to let things go. You just have to decide that whatever it is, is not worth getting yourself worked up over in the grand scheme of things.

That implies having some criteria by which to make that judgment. Some things ARE worth getting worked up over. For example, I certainly get upset when people put me on a hit list (it's happened).

 

[BStrong]

I've got the same issues on some levels.

I don't hold grudges per se, but if someone reveals themselves to me to be untrustworthy, or makes comments that go against my fundamental core values, I choose to not have any further contact with that individual unless required through business or family obligations.

I do have a very short list of individuals that my father's favorite saying applies to "I don't wish the man any ill-will, I just wish a truck would run over their *********** head," and that list does grow shorter over time, but I imagine a couple may outlive me.

 

[Zelenius]

Frozenwolf,

I think you're a lot more normal than you think. You're just more honest about your feelings and fantasies than most. Although I believe that forgiveness is overrated, it still is generally a good thing, if done right. It can just as easily be a bad thing if it allows you to get revictimized. And maybe this is the fear that inspires this hateful grudge and violent revenge fantasies, the fear of being revictmized.

Since I've had similar experiences as you, and have not forgiven even a close relative who harmed me, I think in part a fear of revictimization is an important factor here. Especially when/if you're feeling vulnerable. I think the thing to ask yourself is what are the chances of you getting revictimized by the same person or persons, or by other people? I think this may play an important part in allowing you to let go of your anger and revenge fantasies. Ultimately, it depends on the person, your relationship with them, what they did, if they've been punished, among other things.

This inability to forgive, to dwell on past offenses is, I think, something that grew out of an evolutionary adaptation to avoid danger or to avoid getting taken advantage of. In some people this "mechanism" is a bit more over-reactive than in others, for whatever reason. There is no on-off switch on this "mechanism" unfortunately. Now while this "mechanism" is meant to protect you, it can also backfire and "poison" you. It's not healthy to become too obsessed with past wrongs unless the offender can still do harm to you or others. If they are dead, or too far away, it is best to let go, maybe to forgive(though that doesn't mean telling them or no longer avoiding them), but not to forget(though not to obsess), just in case anyone ever tries to do something like this again.

It's interesting that we both use vicious, bloodthirsty carnivores in our avatars.

 

[I Ratant]

I can only recall having two people on my **** list currently.
It's about the same as putting a person on Ignore here.
I see they're there, but don't truck with them at all.
.
There's a difference between forgiving and putting up with ****... usually there's a personal need that lets one put up with ****.

 

[poblob14]

Pardon the many, many quotes, but they go directly to my point:

It's not that I don't know the purpose of forgiveness. It doesn't mean you let the person get away with it.

For me, forgiveness is a choice. My emotions are what they are. Sometimes I get over a thing, sometimes I don't. Forgiveness is something I choose, something I believe, not something I feel.

I detest the feeling of holding grudges, wanting revenge, being obsessively angry...people try it on and sometimes succeed but I see they play a game I am not interested in participating in.

In those situations where I forgive, there are three necessities: first, it must be someone that I already have a strong relationship with; second, it must be something that is not normal for them (ie. it's not something that happens regularly); and third, I must be convinced that they are truly sorry, and that they intend to never do such a thing again.

Don't underestimate the subversive power of forgiveness. Forgiving might seem like a cop-out or forfeit, but it's not. (I'm pretty sure it was invented by a Slytherin.) . . . .Try this experiment. Go to a message board where homophobes argue.* Call them bigots, call them haters, call them every negative thing you can think of. Watch them remain unfazed. Tell them you forgive them for being what they are and doing what they do. Watch them kick and scream.

I always forgive my enemies but first I get even.

Forgiveness, for me, means that I don't let things that I can't, or won't, do anything about ruin my life. There's crap that was done to me, then there's crap that I do. I focus on what I can or will do. If other people piss me off, or otherwise crap on me, I do whatever I do and then move on.

However, in my experience most people asking for forgiveness want you to pretend that the event never happened--they want you to correct their errors by pretending they didn't happen. That pretty much ensures that they'll happen again.

Forgiveness should only be handed out if it is wanted by the recipient. The recipient must genuinely crave for it and understand that although the bad deed done was difficult to forgive, nevertheless they will be forgiven. Both the forgiver and the forgiven should obtain relief and benefit from the process in equal measures.

I think there's a huge difference between choosing to forgive someone, and choosing not to waste time on an unproductive or counter-productive relationship with someone.

You don't have to forgive someone in order to let things go. You just have to decide that whatever it is, is not worth getting yourself worked up over in the grand scheme of things.

It's not healthy to become too obsessed with past wrongs unless the offender can still do harm to you or others. If they are dead, or too far away, it is best to let go, maybe to forgive(though that doesn't mean telling them or no longer avoiding them), but not to forget(though not to obsess), just in case anyone ever tries to do something like this again.

What I find fascinating is that everyone seems to have his own definition of forgiving. For some, it's an internal act of letting go. For others, it's something you say or do to the person you're forgiving. For some, it's a feeling; for some, it's explicitly not a feeling. For some, it means keeping a relationship alive; for some, it has nothing to do with that. For at least one person, it must be requested; others say the forgiven person need not even know about it. Some seem to imply it's merely not taking revenge; others say it goes far beyond that, or even that it follows taking revenge.

I think this is why the concept of forgiveness has no real meaning for me; no two people mean the same thing by the word, so I've never internalized any meaning for it.

 

[The Norseman]

If I do something that hurts another, I will nearly always apologize for it, but I never seek their forgiveness. That's on them whether they are willing to or not. I know that I've done what I can (sometimes if it's fixable or whatever, I do that) and I have to let it go.

If it's someone else who I feel wronged me, I can offer forgiveness but knowing that I don't have to have that behavior in my life. So, to the latter, it depends on the situation and the person.

An example that I've said before on JREF: after I filed for divorce with my then-wife, it took me a solid year to come to a level of forgiveness that allowed me to continue living my life as I wished with no negative feelings that arose in relation to her or a memory of her. When she died about six months ago now, I could fully grieve her loss with no anger or frustration to hinder *my* process. I was grateful for the work that I did during that first year.

For me, forgiveness is a choice. My emotions are what they are. Sometimes I get over a thing, sometimes I don't. Forgiveness is something I choose, something I believe, not something I feel.

For me, forgiveness has no value if it's a slave to my emotions. Forgiveness is meaningful to me precisely because it's something I choose whether I feel it or not. Though, when my feelings are strong, that choice is hard--sometimes too hard.

Though I find that when I choose forgiveness, when I believe in forgiveness, it helps with the emotions I feel.

And also, it feels good to forgive. Sometimes--often, too often!--it doesn't feel good enough to outweigh the other emotions, the emotions against forgiveness. But it does feel good, and I try to use that when I can. I'd rather live that way, with my emotions in service to my intellect, my choices making use of my feelings, than the other way around.

My advice: Choose to forgive. Let your emotions come and go in their own time, and their own way.

This is just QFT.

 

[The Norseman]

That fact is what should really scare everyone.

We all have Hitlers within us.

Some have bigger Hitlers than others!

 

[blutoski]

You don't have to forgive someone in order to let things go. You just have to decide that whatever it is, is not worth getting yourself worked up over in the grand scheme of things.

I think this might be the question really.

FrozenWolf150 might be conflating the inability to forgive with the inability to forget.

I think there's a personality type that is more likely to ruminate over past events, good or bad.

 

[surrogate]

I used to be a lot angrier and indulge in revenge fantasies quite a bit. Anything you have thought up is most likely far tamer than the depraved horrors I used to concoct on a nearly daily basis. A few years ago my overall health started to decline (nothing major, but not exactly minor either), and obsessive thoughts about my well being started to compete for thinking time with thoughts of past wrongs inflicted upon me. Sometime during this period I came to the conclusion that people will do whatever they believe to be in their own best interest nearly without fail.

With this outlook in mind, when I revisit thoughts of the past, is see things from a different perspective, Instead of one dimensional adversaries, I see flawed people with questionable logic and though processes shaped by their own past and genetics. While I can't say that I forgive any of them, in a way I sort of feel sorry for them, and don't think about inflicting retribution for "crimes against me" nearly as much. I've come to the point where I believe that my best interest is served better by thinking of things that would be more beneficial to me than evening the score.

ETA: Non-religious

 

[Dissolution]

I think that you might be focusing too much on the person and too little on the event itself, Frozenwolf150.
You're taking things too personally, going by what you've posted, particularly the part about wanting revenge for insults.

By building these acts up, replaying them over and over, compounding any perceived damage done, you're inflicting far more harm to yourself than anyone else has.
Learn any lessons that may need to be learned and then dump what's left.
Assess things rationally, see what you actually lost each time, work out if there's something that you could've done differently to avoid taking a hit and then consign the event to history.

You're giving other people far too much power over you.

 

[Navigator]

I hold grudges for a very very long time.

I was thinking more about your OP Frozenwolf.

I think the worst thing about that which causes the rise for the need to forgive is if it walks away, itself unscathed and even in a better position if that position was stolen from that which then needs to forgive.

Importantly I say this with the word 'need' and 'forgive'.

It is 'worse' in the sense that it leaves one hopeless and walked over and shunned and defeated and nose rubbed in the **** and on and on it goes.

It is only possibly to forgive such if such no longer matters in relation to personal hopefulness.

Of course one would not expect that to come from the thing once held in grudge.

That thing does not need to change in order for ones hope to surface.

I hope you find it in your heart.

 

[Wolfman]

Nope. I'm pretty sure it's the person that tried to rape my relatives that diminished the quality and happiness of my life. It's not a question of whether or not those aspects will be deminished, but by how much. And if throwing away the quality and happiness of my life keeps those close to me from suffering unmitigated horror for the rest of theirs, I'm inclined to do it.

It's always hard to respond to the rape thing, because it's so emotionally laden. "How dare you tell me how I should feel!?!?"

I myself was sexually abused by a trusted older male when I was young. I have friends who have been raped. For all of them, it was a traumatic experience; for all of them, it had a traumatic impact on their lives.

But in my experience, people went one of two ways afterwards. One was to obsess on the act committed to them, and on hating the person who did it to them. And I never saw any of the people who did that achieve meaningful emotional recovery from the trauma of their abuse. The other was to acknowledge what had happened, but not to let it control/overwhelm their lives. These people, including myself, were eventually able to move on to 'normal' lives, where that abuse was an unforgettable and undeniable aspect of their past, but was not an important part of their present.

The man who abused me was never punished (I never told anyone until after he was dead); he died of cancer. Personally, I was quite happy that he died a slow and rather painful death. I never forgave him. But nor did I sit around wishing he would die, or contemplating how I'd like to get revenge on him.

Again, when someone has done something terrible like this, I have a choice. I can choose to let their actions affect me in such a way that I will carry that rage/anger/shame with me for the rest of my life; or I can move past it. The latter choice is not, by any means, easy. But at least in my experience and opinion, it's the only option that allows the abused person to actually move beyond the abuse. Maintaining that rage/anger requires revisiting and reliving those abuses over and over and over again (how can you maintain your rage/anger without remembering what caused it?); which in turn makes recovery all the more difficult.

Not trying to tell you what to do; only to relate the reasons for why I respond the way that I do.

 

[dlorde]

I think there's a huge difference between not forgiving someone, and actively holding a grudge.

There are people -- particularly those close to me -- who I have forgiven for various wrongs. Because hey...sometimes, people **** up. Gawd knows, I've done things in the past that needed a great deal of forgiveness from others.

In those situations where I forgive, there are three necessities: first, it must be someone that I already have a strong relationship with; second, it must be something that is not normal for them (ie. it's not something that happens regularly); and third, I must be convinced that they are truly sorry, and that they intend to never do such a thing again.

But outside of that, I don't forgive. And I don't forget. You had a chance, you blew it, that's it. I'm not going to waste time/energy/effort on you, I have more important things, and more important people, to focus on.

And that's where I differ from you. I don't seek revenge. I don't dream of retaliation, I don't obsess over a personal grudge. Because the moment I do that, I am granting those ******** the power to diminish the quality and happiness of my life. I'll simply ignore them (or, where impossible to ignore, such as a colleague, will not trust them or engage with them beyond what is necessary according to the requirements of the situation).

Anger, regret, frustration...none of these are emotions that lend anything to improving mylife, to making me happier, more productive, more successful, etc. So why let some ******* who did something wrong to me cause those emotions? I'd far rather spend my time, energy, and efforts on things that are taking me forward, that are improving the quality of my life, that are enhancing the quality of the friendships with people I do trust, etc.

This ^

 

[Frozenwolf150]

I think therein lies the problem. I don't know how to draw that distinction. I don't know how to separate out the lack of forgiveness from the obsessive grudges. This is precisely why I asked. I have trouble letting go. If someone has wronged me or harmed me, I don't want to let my guard down, because I know it'll happen again. However, this has turned me into a very paranoid person, which isn't healthy either. I have trouble trusting anyone now because I've been burned in the past.

It's difficult for me to simply return to my life and concentrate on what moves me forward, because I don't have much of a fulfilling life to return to in the first place. This is probably why I hold on to these obsessions for so long; they give me a sense of continuity. Without them, I would lose track of time. So I can't afford to not forgive, because there's no other way to let go of these incidents.

I suppose I could do worse than to try, and let my feelings sort themselves out on their own.

 

[The Norseman]

I think therein lies the problem. I don't know how to draw that distinction. I don't know how to separate out the lack of forgiveness from the obsessive grudges. This is precisely why I asked. I have trouble letting go. If someone has wronged me or harmed me, I don't want to let my guard down, because I know it'll happen again. However, this has turned me into a very paranoid person, which isn't healthy either. I have trouble trusting anyone now because I've been burned in the past.

It's difficult for me to simply return to my life and concentrate on what moves me forward, because I don't have much of a fulfilling life to return to in the first place. This is probably why I hold on to these obsessions for so long; they give me a sense of continuity. Without them, I would lose track of time. So I can't afford to not forgive, because there's no other way to let go of these incidents.

I suppose I could do worse than to try, and let my feelings sort themselves out on their own.

Ah. My advice is to affirm the good that you find in others. The more you gently catch yourself returning to the old ways, just as gently remind yourself of a good thing that happened that day or the day before. Start small. You might feel foolish in doing this, too. That's okay. No one else has to know. Sometimes even saying positive things aloud helps reinforce the new-ish channels in your thinking and behavior.

They say that it takes just two weeks to form new habits. So, promise to yourself you'll do it for two weeks at first, then another two. Then re-evaluate. If it's not working, no harm and no foul (literally).

 

[Navigator]

I think therein lies the problem. I don't know how to draw that distinction. I don't know how to separate out the lack of forgiveness from the obsessive grudges. This is precisely why I asked. I have trouble letting go. If someone has wronged me or harmed me, I don't want to let my guard down, because I know it'll happen again. However, this has turned me into a very paranoid person, which isn't healthy either. I have trouble trusting anyone now because I've been burned in the past.

It's difficult for me to simply return to my life and concentrate on what moves me forward, because I don't have much of a fulfilling life to return to in the first place. This is probably why I hold on to these obsessions for so long; they give me a sense of continuity. Without them, I would lose track of time. So I can't afford to not forgive, because there's no other way to let go of these incidents.

I suppose I could do worse than to try, and let my feelings sort themselves out on their own.

Well imo you are moving in the right direction because you are able to appraise your motivations honestly AND make them public.

Sometimes the mundane is the perfect place to accomplish what you need to do to move on with your life.

Forgiveness is exactly as you say. You cannot move on without letting go. Some stuff is just unnecessary baggage but the difficulty is recognizing that. What to keep and what to let go.

Just because you are aware of this (not withstanding the emotional stuff) you are 2/3rds the way to completion.

We are more than our feelings but they do represent something of who we are - even if that 'who' is a passing phase. From what I hear you saying, you are more in touch with your 'heart' than you might fully realist.

Forgiveness is an act of self kindness.

ETA

Also don't be too hard on yourself in relation to:

I have trouble letting go. If someone has wronged me or harmed me, I don't want to let my guard down, because I know it'll happen again. However, this has turned me into a very paranoid person, which isn't healthy either. I have trouble trusting anyone now because I've been burned in the past.

It is actually okay not to trust and let your guard down. Often 'forgive and forget' are slapped together as somehow synonymous. You are not required to prostrate upon the whipping block. If we cannot learn from what has happened we cannot move forward.
Forget and you open yourself to further abuse.

There is no logical reason to trust anyone but yourself, although sometimes we do find ourselves in situations where some form of trust is required. Trust yourself.

 

[Astreja]

I have a very hard time with forgiveness, either giving or receiving. If I've done something wrong, I'd rather make it right; similarly, I can't let go when I've been hurt by someone else. I expect to see a balancing of the scales before I'll close someone's "account."

Just about everyone I deal with gets one chance, and if they blow it I cut them loose. Very few get more than one chance to do the right thing, and it's usually against those few that I hold intractable grudges. The passage of time doesn't seem to heal the old grudges; it turns down the volume a bit, but a grudge can spring back to life when I least expect it. Fortunately this doesn't happen as often nowadays, but if I choose to be angry and indulge the memories, it does feel rather like a jolt of adrenaline.

 

[scarlettinlondon]

I forgive those who offend against me. Then I cut them out of my life ruthlessly and never think of them again. Harsh but it works and I do sleep easy with it. Mind you, it has to be a big offence, like stealing from me, not a little one like just being rude or short tempered.

Those who injure my friends and family I never forgive. I am far more harsh on people if they hurt those I love, particularly those who are vulnerable. I consider no punishment too harsh for them and actively look forward to their untimely death. Whilst I wouldn't hasten that untimely death I would not go out of my way to stretch a hand out to save them and I often spend time thinking up inventive ways for revenge.

I can live with myself.