Problem with Pascal's Wager

[kmortis]

Are those Vikings? They look more like Huns to me.

According to a site that watches those kinds of things (This one here) calls them barbarians. Most of the other sites I found dealing with that campaign calls them barbarians. Of course, that term would cover the Vikings, the Huns, the Visi- and Ostragoths, and a host of other cultures of the day.

Seeing as I have no knowledge of the other's pantheons, I can only comment on the Norse, and therefore I'll assume that the ad is using Vikings in their ads.

 

[Belz...]

Why? Because people do in fact have their preferences. And without a hell -- both heaven and hell are diverse places by the way -- it cannot be maintained.

Ridiculous. No one WANTS to go to hell. And where did you get the crazy idea that they are "diverse" places, anyway ?

 

[richardm]

Really? I don't see how you can infer that.

Well, I'm trying to see how it is relevant to what we were talking about. I'm stating my opinion that God's attitude to humanity is an abusive one, because unless we toe the line we end up in the flames.

And you have provided several bible verses that seem to try to indicate that what people say and do in the name of religion - including, perhaps, some of the things that they say Jesus said - are their for their own expedience and not representative of what God really means:

Basically he was calling them all a bunch of criminals.

- for twisting God's word for their own purposes?

I think that you are attempting to imply that God is not really a bully, but humans have made him out to be one because that suits their agenda.

But then here:

Why? Because people do in fact have their preferences. And without a hell -- both heaven and hell are diverse places by the way -- it cannot be maintained.

You appear to be saying that there really is a hell. So I'm a bit confused as to what your position really is.

On the one hand, you seem to imply that I don't need to fear eternal damnation because that part is a just weapon of organised religion, but on the other you seem to confirm that there is a real hell that we are threatened with.

I'm not trying to be awkward, here, I'm trying to understand your position. Remember that my original premise was that God is a bully for threatening us. Is he - or isn't he?

Thanks!

 

[kmortis]

I'm not trying to be awkward, here, I'm trying to understand your position. Remember that my original premise was that God is a bully for threatening us. Is he - or isn't he?

Thanks!

I'm reminded of a quote (somewhat paraphrased as I don't have the text infront of me): "The Bible tells us to be like God; then page after page it describes Him as a domineering, psychotic tyrant. I think this explains the 20th century better than anything else." - Robert A. Wilson.

 

[Beerina]

It is quite possible to love what is good and just without believing that gods are responsible.

I love what is good and just - I do not believe in gods. QED

However, I believe that you haven't addressed what I wrote yet - perhaps you're getting around to it - but God appears to me to be strongarming people into worshipping him by beating us with the stick of eternal damnation. By itself, eternal life in heaven should be enough of a carrot, but it doesn't appear to be, so he must bully and threaten.

A typical response is similar to the claim that "hell" is simply being cut off from God forever and ever. If you knew how totally awesome it was to actually worship God in God's presence, then everything else is akin to sitting in flames.

Even, presumably, way, way better than the joy of being a 14 year old boy ejaculating for the very first time, and inside his best friend's wanton mother, who is also coincidentally his English teacher at Catholic school, where she sometimes beats him with a whip while wearing leather thigh highs.

Oh......kayyyyyyy........

Well, if it's better than that, sign me up!

But I don't think that's exactly what the Bible is implying, but is rather an after the fact explanation to reconcile a good God with Neanderthal stillborn babies being heaved into a lake of molton lava.

 

[Iacchus]

Ridiculous. No one WANTS to go to hell. And where did you get the crazy (???) idea that they are "diverse" places, anyway ?

Well, if I go to hell for something that I did or, more appropriately what I've become, there should be a place taylor-made to accomodate that, don't you think? Otherwise what would be the point? How else would it would it constrain the monster in me if it didn't address it specifically?

 

[kmortis]

Well, if I go to hell for something that I did or, more appropriately what I've become, there should be a place taylor-made to accomodate that, don't you think? Otherwise what would be the point? How else would it would it constrain the monster in me if I didn't address it specifically?

Wait, you could get WORSE??? Well, praise be to the FSM and the chicken that we have a hell then. I'd hate to see the circular logic you'd pull without it, it'd be something to give Mobeus the heeby-jeebies.

 

[Iacchus]

I'm not trying to be awkward, here, I'm trying to understand your position. Remember that my original premise was that God is a bully for threatening us. Is he - or isn't he?

Thanks!

Basically God let's us have we want but, not to the exclusion of what others want ... if, in fact it differs from our own. Otherwise it would be total chaos, and there would be no heaven, nor hell.

So yes, God does provide for the ability to bully others around in His name but, that does not guarantee, in the least, that we will go to heaven. I think Matthew 23 makes that quite clear.

 

[Iacchus]

I think that you are attempting to imply that God is not really a bully, but humans have made him out to be one because that suits their agenda.

Yes.

 

[Iacchus]

Wait, you could get WORSE??? Well, praise be to the FSM and the chicken that we have a hell then. I'd hate to see the circular logic you'd pull without it, it'd be something to give Mobeus the heeby-jeebies.

Actually, people are only punished for the "crimes" that they commit while they're in hell. So, it's not like they don't have a choice, only that they're predisposed to behave in a manner that they "embraced" most -- as their own -- when they were alive.

 

[richardm]

Yes.

So the whole bible then must be considered unreliable. Interesting.

 

[Belz...]

Well, if I go to hell for something that I did or, more appropriately what I've become, there should be a place taylor-made to accomodate that, don't you think? Otherwise what would be the point? How else would it would it constrain the monster in me if it didn't address it specifically?

Since we are the sum of our parts, it stands to reason that, although we are accountable for our deeds here, any omniscient beign would know that, objectively, there was no other choice BUT for us to do these things. If so, why punish ? And also, why punish eternally ? If I've been a bad man for 80 years... why punish me for eternity ? I'd think a couple thousand years would set me straight!

 

[kmortis]

Actually, people are only punished for the "crimes" that they commit while they're in hell. So, it's not like they don't have a choice, only that they're predisposed to behave in a manner that they "embraced" most -- as their own -- when they were alive.

"Actually, people are only punished for the "crimes" that they commit while they're in hell."

Huh? People can commit crimes in hell? I assume you meant to say that people are only punished in hell for the crimes they commit?

Well, according to the New Testament (aka God's Contract with His People) the only necessary and sufficent requirement to get into heaven is to accept TLJC as Lord and Savior. That doesn't sound like "people are only punished for their crimes". Granted, we can get into the whole "Saved by Grace/Saved by Deeds" debate that has haunted the Protestant churches ever since Martin Luther banged his hammer.

 

[Iacchus]

Huh? People can commit crimes in hell? I assume you meant to say that people are only punished in hell for the crimes they commit?

No, hell is a place of containment, for those who don't wish to behave civilly towards others. Of course due to the life that they live in the world, they may be predisposed towards a certain attitude, but this is what determines who they are as people (typically self-serving and vindictive), and this is what keeps them in hell. It's all based upon free will in other words. If not, then the love of evil could not be maintained, neither could the love of good, which is to say there is no love at all, and nobody is happy.

So, "Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you," seems to be the rule of the day here.

Well, according to the New Testament (aka God's Contract with His People) the only necessary and sufficent requirement to get into heaven is to accept TLJC as Lord and Savior. That doesn't sound like "people are only punished for their crimes". Granted, we can get into the whole "Saved by Grace/Saved by Deeds" debate that has haunted the Protestant churches ever since Martin Luther banged his hammer.

Rhetoric.

 

[Belz...]

No, hell is a place of containment, for those who don't wish to behave civilly towards others.

No, it's a place of containment for those who disobey God.

Of course due to the life that they live in the world, they may be predisposed towards a certain attitude, but this is what determines who they are as people (typically self-serving and vindictive), and this is what keeps them in hell.

No, otherwise it wouldn't be ETERNAL.

 

[Plognark]

Did someone mention Pascal's Wager?

A comic I did a while back

 

[kmortis]

No, hell is a place of containment, for those who don't wish to behave civilly towards others. Of course due to the life that they live in the world, they may be predisposed towards a certain attitude, but this is what determines who they are as people (typically self-serving and vindictive), and this is what keeps them in hell. It's all based upon free will in other words. If not, then the love of evil could not be maintained, neither could the love of good, which is to say there is no love at all, and nobody is happy.

So, "Do unto others, as you would have them do unto you," seems to be the rule of the day here.

Your expansive vocabulary is too copious for my diminutive intelligence. Please elucidate.

Rhetoric.

Well, since it's obvious that I cannot give facts to this, I have to resort to rhetoric, dunn I? 'Cause that's what people do, right? You've taught me well, Iacchus.

 

[athon]

Why do you think Christ referred to Peter as Satan at one point, right after He promises Peter the keys to the Kingdom? [/URL]

Umm... don't know if anybody addressed this (haven't read the whole thread) but Satan is a Hebrew word (STN - no vowels, remember) that translates literally as 'The Opposer'. Jesus was literally calling Peter 'satan', as 'one who is opposing me'. It's a word that survived direct translation from early transcripts of Matthew's writings, adding confusion as Satan was also referenced as an actual figure.

Amazing what knowing a bit of history does to the Bible.

Athon

 

[Iacchus]

Your expansive vocabulary is too copious for my diminutive intelligence. Please elucidate.

Well, I guess it made sense to me at the time.

Well, since it's obvious that I cannot give facts to this, I have to resort to rhetoric, dunn I? 'Cause that's what people do, right? You've taught me well, Iacchus.

Nope, I was referring to the rhetoric associated with and, stems from the Church.

 

[kmortis]

Well, I guess it made sense to me at the time.

LOL.
Ok, let me ask it to you like this. Is, in yer opinion, hell a place for punishing crimes, or a place to commit them?

Nope, I was referring to the rhetoric associated with and, stems from the Church.

If I felt so inclined, I could quote chapter and verse, but since I see no value to a theological debate over this, I won't. I will say, however, that all Christian churches require that you pledge loyality to TLJC to be "saved", some then go on to mandate certain behaviors, some do not, but suggest a lifestyle. That is the dogma. I didn't start it, I don't follow it, I'm just pointing it out for reasons that, at this point, escape me.