Problem with Pascal's Wager

[Tricky]

I recall last time we played the dictionary game you didn't come off so well did you?

Iacchus has his own "special" dictionary, where evidence=faith, dreams=reality and logical=circular. Don't ask him to use a standard dictionary. That would involve learning, which is against his religion.

 

[richardm]

I never even implied it. Now, if you would like to get some idea as to who this might entail, please read Matthew 23.

Thanks, I have read it, but I don't understand the relevance. Could you explain?

As I said, God doesn't bully people, people bully people.

Do you completely reject the analysis that if a person threatens to hurt people who don't conform to their ideas, then that is bullying? If so, why? If not, why is it not bullying when God does it?

Let's not forget that these people were also brought up in a desert climate, which might account for the nature of God's fierceness.

Are you proposing that the furnaces of hell are a metaphor? Because I disagree, based on what Chapter 9 of Luke tells us that Jesus himself said:

23 Andin hell he lift up his eyes,being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Flame. Not just heat like you might get in even the hottest desert.

A quick search around gives us:

In Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

In Matthew 25:41, Jesus says: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,. . ."

I think it's clear what's on offer.

So, why is it that you think people do bad things? Apparently, according to what you're saying here, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with God. And maybe that "is" the problem?

I think that in the main people do bad things because they want personal gain of one kind or another and do not care that they hurt people in the process.

 

[richardm]

And do you love what's good and just (ethical and moral that is) or, do you despise it?

It is quite possible to love what is good and just without believing that gods are responsible.

I love what is good and just - I do not believe in gods. QED

However, I believe that you haven't addressed what I wrote yet - perhaps you're getting around to it - but God appears to me to be strongarming people into worshipping him by beating us with the stick of eternal damnation. By itself, eternal life in heaven should be enough of a carrot, but it doesn't appear to be, so he must bully and threaten.

 

[kmortis]

It is quite possible to love what is good and just without believing that gods are responsible.

I love what is good and just - I do not believe in gods. QED

However, I believe that you haven't addressed what I wrote yet - perhaps you're getting around to it - but God appears to me to be strongarming people into worshipping him by beating us with the stick of eternal damnation. By itself, eternal life in heaven should be enough of a carrot, but it doesn't appear to be, so he must bully and threaten.

Ya know, I never thought of that. How bad is heaven, really, if He has to resort to threats and beatings if you don't wanna go? Maybe heaven is the Bates Motel of afterlifes...afterlives...afterslife...afterslive...eternity.

Mother: "God, did you bring another dirty person here?"
God: "No, Mother. They're nice people."
M: "NO! They're filthy! They need to go to HELL!"
G: "No, Mother! DON'T!!!!"
[insert disturbing violin music here]

 

[Iacchus]

Thanks, I have read it, but I don't understand the relevance. Could you explain?

Matthew 23 is an indictment of organized religion ... at least of that time frame. Now, if you could equate that with some of the other "conscriptural" nonsense we've been talking about, perhaps you would understand what I'm saying?

 

[Iacchus]

However, I believe that you haven't addressed what I wrote yet - perhaps you're getting around to it - but God appears to me to be strongarming people into worshipping him by beating us with the stick of eternal damnation. By itself, eternal life in heaven should be enough of a carrot, but it doesn't appear to be, so he must bully and threaten.

Hell is there by necessity, to separate those who love what is good and just, from those who don't. It's as simple as that.

 

[richardm]

Matthew 23 is an indictment of organized religion ... at least of that time frame. Now, if you could equate that with some of the other "conscriptural" nonsense we've been talking about, perhaps you would understand what I'm saying?

You are saying that you can't believe everything that's in the bible because some of it has been inserted in order to propagate organised religion?

 

[richardm]

Hell is there by necessity, to separate those who love what is good and just, from those who don't. It's as simple as that.

The Bible is quite clear that you cannot go to heaven unless you follow Jesus. There are many people who are good and just who do not follow Jesus, but they are heading furnacewards. So it's not that simple at all.

 

[Belz...]

While it may be a decent argument for who you should believe in God, it doesn't tell you WHICH God to believe in.

Personnally, I'd pick Zeus or some other Olympian diety. At least I can understand some of their psychology: anger, violence, love, war. If you're going to anthropomorphisise (is that a word ?), better do it properly!

 

[Belz...]

Hell is there by necessity, to separate those who love what is good and just, from those who don't. It's as simple as that.

Let me put it this way: if we live on earth for just a few decades, and then die and go and live somewhere else for an eternity, and if there's a place where everyone's happy all the time and the pain of the past no longer matters, why WOULDN'T everyone end up in heaven ? I mean, what's the difference ?

Let's take Hitler. By no means a decent man. But, considering that, according to religion, all those millions of people who died because of him are now happy-deedly-doo in heaven, why would you want to punish Hitler for all eternity ?? I mean, once they're in heaven, would they still hate his guts ? That doesn't sound very happy to me! So, why send all these people to hell if what they did really doesn't matter, in the end ?

Disclaimer: I hate Hitler. Just in case anyone didn't get that.

 

[c4ts]

Sounds pretty interesting, but as I understand it's for warriors only. Where do Viking accountants go?

To Valhalla! Haven't you seen those Capital One ads? Viking accountants are the warriors who pillage your wallet in battle.

 

[cyborg]

Iacchus has his own "special" dictionary, where evidence=faith, dreams=reality and logical=circular. Don't ask him to use a standard dictionary. That would involve learning, which is against his religion.

That's why I consider calling him an idiot a matter of fact, not an insult.

 

[kmortis]

Good catch, c4ts. Of course, wouldn't their warrior status be recended with the follow-on ads?

 

[c4ts]

Only if they survive the initial conflict. And casting.

 

[kmortis]

good point. Then Huzzah! to all you Viking Accountants out there, Jeanne (sister of Brunhilda) will lead her Account-eyries to your death place and guide you to your afterlife!

 

[Tricky]

To Valhalla! Haven't you seen those Capital One ads? Viking accountants are the warriors who pillage your wallet in battle.

Are those Vikings? They look more like Huns to me.

 

[c4ts]

I dunno, man. All barbarians look alike after a while.

 

[Iacchus]

You are saying that you can't believe everything that's in the bible because some of it has been inserted in order to propagate organised religion?

Really? I don't see how you can infer that. Basically he was calling them all a bunch of criminals. And these are the very same people who crucified him.

 

[Iacchus]

The Bible is quite clear that you cannot go to heaven unless you follow Jesus. There are many people who are good and just who do not follow Jesus, but they are heading furnacewards. So it's not that simple at all.

If Jesus is good and just, and this is what He represents, then Jesus "is" the way. Obviously, people have a tendency of putting the cart before the horse in this regard. Or, consider what He says here regarding Isaiah's words ...

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

10 And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:

11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

12 Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?

13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. ~ Matthew 15:7-14

So, what guarantee is there when speaking in Jesus' name only?

 

[Iacchus]

So, why send all these people to hell if what they did really doesn't matter, in the end ?

Why? Because people do in fact have their preferences. And without a hell -- both heaven and hell are diverse places by the way -- it cannot be maintained.