Here are the top 5 (as of 2013, per capita, 100,000 adult population):
Louisiana 1,420
Oklahoma 1,300
Mississippi 1,270
Alabama 1,230
Georgia 1,220
I guess some state had to be first on the list.
Prison System Issues/Discussion
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Here are the top 5 (as of 2013, per capita, 100,000 adult population):
Louisiana 1,420
Oklahoma 1,300
Mississippi 1,270
Alabama 1,230
Georgia 1,220
I guess some state had to be first on the list.
Mumbles
Philosopher
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Actually, I also devoted my education to STEM - which in the late 90s as an engineer meant "you get six non-STEM classes." Reading up on relations between white and black Americans through US history is a years-long hobby - inspired partly by family history, and partly by the fact that I got tired of the sci-fi/fantasy books I had been reading for a couple of decades up to that point
Astonished to learn that the US does not have the world's highest incarceration rate. Seychelles does, oddly enough. Also, while US incarceration rates vary wildly from state to state, none of our states would be considered low by international standards and that's rather depressing. Also disappointing is that the state with the lowest incarceration rate (Maine) doesn't have a low recidivism rate, so it's not as if they're particularly good at reforming their crooks - they just don't have as many to start with.
Funny, I've read a lot of ancient history because I got tired of sci-fi/fantasy. Actually, its just that sci-fi/fantasy are genre's full of bad writing. I got tired of wading through a half dozen bad books for one good.Actually, I also devoted my education to STEM - which in the late 90s as an engineer meant "you get six non-STEM classes." Reading up on relations between white and black Americans through US history is a years-long hobby - inspired partly by family history, and partly by the fact that I got tired of the sci-fi/fantasy books I had been reading for a couple of decades up to that point
Anyrate, I have a stem degree and had a lot more than 6 non-stem courses. My university even required a junior or senior level humanities course, I don't imagine english majors were required to take a junior or senior level engineering course.
One of the many reasons I think the private prison discussion is largely a red herring. Closing all of the private prisons in the US will do little or nothing to solve the problems we have in our legal justice system.
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
Except it's not a red herring, as people don't seem to understand what private prisons do or why they exist, or prefer to deny the obvious. If you'd bothered to read the links, Louisiana has both the highest incarceration rates, and the highest population of private for-profit prisons, with private prisons holding more inmates than public prisons. It's clear from the article that for-profit prisons are the primary driver of the massive increase in incarceration rates in the state.
While private, for-profit prisons are as much a symptom as they are a cause, their existence, and that of their corporate lobbyists, helps perpetuate the idea of prisons as slave labour, rather than prisons as agents of reform for the incarcerated.
Louisiana demonstrates the extreme end of the spectrum, but it's quite clear from their example that the private prison lobby and the profit motive is the largest driver of incarceration in the state. Not criminal justice, profit. States that do not rely on private prisons also see lower incarceration rates, and more positive moves toward reform.
Crunching the numbers from several sources (US DoJ, prison corporation websites), the states that have the largest numbers of private, for-profit prisons are also the ones that have both the highest rates of general incarceration, and the highest rates of minority incarceration. And while the national prison population in declining sloly, the prison populations in these states are growing. The overwhelming majority of them are in the South, with a cluster in Southern California (which also has the largest population of undocumented immigrants, one of the primary drivers of private prison growth).
And the Trump administration has stated that they want to see more emphasis placed on private, for-profit prisons. Which means that the problem can only get worse.
Getting rid of for-profit prisons entirely would not fix the core problems; but it would remove one very large barrier that is currently blocking attempts at prison reform in the very locations that need it the most. Although on a national basis, private prisons do not carry a large number of inmates, they do carry a significant fraction, and do carry the overwhelming majority of undocumented immigrants. Without that multi-million-dollar lobbying effort, reforms could proceed at a much greater pace.
For anyone who hasn't read the articles luchog linked, it's worth noting that much of the for-profit prison activity in Louisiana is being engaged in by local sheriffs rather than by private prison companies. It's the for-profit distinction rather than the public vs. private distinction that seems relevant here. The state contracts out to them to hold convicts who'd otherwise be in state facilities or out on the streets. I see no indication that access to convict labor is a particularly strong motivator for this trend in Louisiana. Indeed, it seems that the state prison convicts are more likely to be working than the guys held in the for-profit sheriff facilities.
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
Prison labour is just one of the ways that private prisons recoup their costs and turn a profit. But yes, it's the "for-profit" motive that is the key driver of incarceration rates.
Personally, I find the individual ownership by state sheriffs to be even more problematic than corporate ownership; since these are essentially publicly-elected officials using their positions for personal enrichment. They have a far higher motivation to pursue racist and excessively punitive policing, and to strongly encourage recidivism. Independent reports on for-profit prisons in general have found that they have greatly scaled-back or cut programs that help to reduce recidivism.
One thing both the sheriff's associations and private prison corporations have been lobbying hard against is reform of the drug laws, particularly hard against cannabis legalization and re-scheduling, as drug laws are one of the biggest drivers of incarceration for non-violent offenders, which are the preferred type of offender for for-profit prisons.
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I've just had a magnificently evil idea. The current system in Louisiana pays the sheriffs about $25 a head for the convicts they imprison. Instead, they could be allowed to release prisoners for a "liberty fee" of oh, say, $25 dollars a day. Any convict who can scare up his daily 25 gets to stay free for the day. Lowers the prison population while still keeping the revenue flowing at the same rate.
Pterodactyl
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I'm confused by some of your verbiage. You get that prison and jail are different things, right?
I bolded the term "state sheriffs" because I have no idea what that is.
Sherriffs are elected at the county level, and to my knowledge they do not oversee prisons at all. Most of these are state or federally managed with a smaller percentage managed privately, and definitely not at the county level, where a sheriff would even be involved.
County jails, which typically do fall under a Sherriff's jurisdiction are not typically used for housing inmates for sentences of more than one year, so the recidivism argument doesnt really work there, because as inmates get longer sentences on successive charges, they are no longer held at county jail, but instead go to prison.
Totally agree with the idea that it's wrong for Sherriffs to personally profit from inmate services, but I dont see that it fits in with your larger point on prisons since they are not at all involved in prisons, public or private as far as I know.
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Louisiana is just different. This article luchog posted upthread explains it a bit. Sheriffs in Louisiana have much more control over prisons than would normally be the case and are using some of the money they get for housing convicts to pay for other departmental activities.
Pterodactyl
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Gotcha.
I will look into that further. Definitely different in my state. Was really confused reading some of these posts.
Keep in mind that the legal system in LA is significantly different from the rest of the country.
It seems in Lousiana, the State pays Sheriffs to build and operate prisons, unlike the rest of the nation in which sheriffs only operate jails. Jails typically being used for holding prisoners before trial and for more minor offenses.
It also appears that they are not technically run for profit, the excess is funneled in to the sheriff's operating accounts. I'm sure there's plenty of graft but that appears to be illegal.
As the sheriffs are elected this system also as the benefit of jobs for constituents. A win-win for the sheriff. The sheriffs also lobby to ensure the funds keep coming.
Personally, I think this still supports my point. This is lobbying by public officials not just private corporations and as I mentioned, they aren't technically for profit. This falls into a similar category of prison guard unions that also lobby to maintain and increase incarceration.
It seems in Lousiana, the State pays Sheriffs to build and operate prisons, unlike the rest of the nation in which sheriffs only operate jails. Jails typically being used for holding prisoners before trial and for more minor offenses.
It also appears that they are not technically run for profit, the excess is funneled in to the sheriff's operating accounts. I'm sure there's plenty of graft but that appears to be illegal.
As the sheriffs are elected this system also as the benefit of jobs for constituents. A win-win for the sheriff. The sheriffs also lobby to ensure the funds keep coming.
Personally, I think this still supports my point. This is lobbying by public officials not just private corporations and as I mentioned, they aren't technically for profit. This falls into a similar category of prison guard unions that also lobby to maintain and increase incarceration.
Looking at some comparisons between Louisiana and Mississippi, it seems that limiting the ability of the corrections system to find innovative means of housing additional prisoners forces them to engage in policies that reduce the prison population a little. Unfortunately, I'm not seeing any indication that Mississippi actually got any better at rehabilitating criminals. They just seemed to reduce the number they arrested for parole/probation violations.
Agreed. Maybe the best distinction is people who have a significant financial or professional interest in maintaining high incarceration rates and people who do not.
From what I understand of the penal system, that's probably a reasonable reform.
luchog
Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist
Not the case in Lousiana, but in Alabama, money that is not spent on inmates go directly into the sheriff's pockets. So yeah, while not technically for-profit that is in fact the ultimate result. Private prisons being run for the personal profit of their owners.
However, the situation in Louisiana isn't all that much different, since although the sheriffs do not directly pocket the overage, they re-direct that money to pay their own and their deputies' salaries, so it amounts to effectively the exact same thing, in practice. They skimp on programs and food for prisoners, paying on the bare minimum to meet the notoriously lax state requirements, and the rest finds its way into their pockets by a slightly more circuitous route. All perfectly legally. Private for-profit in fact if not in name.
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