President Bush Quotes Soldier ... Selectively

I disagree with that. Few politicians are as selective in areas of foreign policy as George W. Bush.

When forming policy, his practice is to listen to those with whom he agrees, and pay no attention to others.

But now you're no longer discussing his speech, you're discussing his decision-making process, which wasn't the topic of the OP. And you're also in much more uncertain waters, because from our external position we really can't know what Bush considers when making decisions, we can only know what the final decisions are.

When advocating a policy publicly, his practice has been to stress only those things in favor of his view, and ignore the others.

But that ISN'T any different than other politicians. That IS politics.

Virtually no one in the world trusts Bush, and with good reason.

Trust is a funny thing, and there are different kinds of it. If Bush says he will do something, even our enemies trust that he will probably do it. That kind of trust is worth quite a lot. I doubt someone as "trustworthy" as Carter, for example, had as much of that kind of trust as Bush does.

You did not see this extreme selectivity from Clinton, who insisted upon being told both good news and bad, and who declined to paint a rosy picture when the picture wasn't rosy.

Back to speculation. And off topic as well: Clinton's actual speeches were still always given from a very definite perspective, and did not dwell on all the possible counterarguments. That's the way it has always been, and that's perfectly acceptable. I wouldn't want Lincoln, for example, to have talked about the possibility of making peace with the South during his Gettysburg address, even if it made his speech more "balanced" and less "selective".
 
I don't get it Brown. From your OPs' example the quotes are identicle in context.

Indeed, Wood said, "They're pretty much ready to go it on their own." Continuing his thought that day in October, Wood went on to say, "But until they are properly equipped, they'll need our help." Bush left out that second part.

The first part covers that there is indeed a qualifer to the statement.

If I was working on a project and you asked me if it was finished and my reply was "pretty much," would not a follow-up be, "What still needs to be done?"

It seems like this is a bit of nit-picking to me as both statement retain the same meaning.
 
Just two questions:

1. Do you really, honestly think that this makes it any better?
2. Can you really, honestly claim that you would have cut a Democrat - say, Clinton - the same slack under the same circumstances?
Everything's relative. It is hypocritical to hold one set of politicians to a different standard than others. I don't like it, and don't think it makes it better. But also don't think it is worthy of singling Bush out for doing this.

The media also does this constantly, on a daily basis. It really irritates me when anyone (media, Democrats, Republicans, some 3rd party) does it. So I don't like it, but I also wouldn't single out Bush.
 
Selective editing to present my side of things, using your words.

Am I lying when I quote you as saying that?

Yes, since you have not only omitted parts of my text, but you have intentionally made them mean something exactly opposite of what they actually meant. That is not the case here, as the article linked in the OP clearly shows. There was never a claim that Bush's selections actually CONTRADICT what the soldier actually said, but merely that it omitted parts of his meaning. No argument to the effect that Bush lied has actually been advanced in this thread, only an accusation flung casually about.

The distinction between an actual lie (which you gave an example of) and only being selective is obvious. And yet, you choose not to see it, or at least pretend that it does not exist. I cannot believe that you were actually unable to recognize it.
 
The media also does this constantly, on a daily basis. It really irritates me when anyone (media, Democrats, Republicans, some 3rd party) does it. So I don't like it, but I also wouldn't single out Bush.
While it is wrong regardless, I have higher expectations for the POTUS.
 
Yes, since you have not only omitted parts of my text, but you have intentionally made them mean something exactly opposite of what they actually meant. That is not the case here, as the article linked in the OP clearly shows. There was never a claim that Bush's selections actually CONTRADICT what the soldier actually said, but merely that it omitted parts of his meaning. No argument to the effect that Bush lied has actually been advanced in this thread, only an accusation flung casually about.

The distinction between an actual lie (which you gave an example of) and only being selective is obvious. And yet, you choose not to see it, or at least pretend that it does not exist. I cannot believe that you were actually unable to recognize it.

I disagree.

Wood said, "They're pretty much ready to go it on their own." Continuing his thought that day in October, Wood went on to say, "But until they are properly equipped, they'll need our help." Bush left out that second part.

"They're pretty much ready to go it on their own" suggests they don't need our help. "But until they are properly equipped, they'll need our help" means that a) they're not properly equipped, and b) they need our help still, and b) seems to be a contradiction of "they're ready to go it on their own". Which makes it odd that Wood would have said "they're pretty much ready to go it on their own", unless he was speaking extemperaneously and thought to modify the statement when he was stating something he didn't think to be the case. Certainly the end effect of the two sentences isn't "they're ready to go it on their own", which is what Bush presented him as saying. He DID say the first bit, the bit quoted. But he didn't MEAN it, as he went on to qualify it into a contradiction.

The end result of the complete statement is the conveying of the message "they're not ready now". The end result of taking the first part only is "they're ready now."

I suppose it's a philosophical ethical question, whether quoting someone's statement which is the opposite of what they were meaning is lying, libel, or nothing wrong. To me, it seems deceptive, if not an outright lie.
 
Yes, since you have not only omitted parts of my text, but you have intentionally made them mean something exactly opposite of what they actually meant. That is not the case here, as the article linked in the OP clearly shows. There was never a claim that Bush's selections actually CONTRADICT what the soldier actually said, but merely that it omitted parts of his meaning. No argument to the effect that Bush lied has actually been advanced in this thread, only an accusation flung casually about.

The distinction between an actual lie (which you gave an example of) and only being selective is obvious. And yet, you choose not to see it, or at least pretend that it does not exist. I cannot believe that you were actually unable to recognize it.
I see so it's wrong only if it "contradicts" or means the exact opposite. Wow, you really have set the bar low for honesty.
 
Most people as they mature, learn that people need to take responsibility for their own actions and not blame others. At least that's the lesson I've provided to my kids.

Uh-huh. Thanks, dad, I'll tell the Beaver.

You should also let your kids know how the real world works if you have the time, you know, the bits about politicians being slightly less complete and accurante than the Encyclopaedia Brittanica.
 
"They're pretty much ready to go it on their own" suggests they don't need our help. "But until they are properly equipped, they'll need our help" means that a) they're not properly equipped, and b) they need our help still, and b) seems to be a contradiction of "they're ready to go it on their own".

(snip)

The end result of the complete statement is the conveying of the message "they're not ready now". The end result of taking the first part only is "they're ready now."
But didn't the President spend much of the rest of the speech explaining that we were not withdrawing troops yet precisely because they are not ready to go it on their own?
 
I think the problem is that one can be deceptive without lying, via sophistry, omission, and stating something in a way that is factually truthful but meant to convey something else. The ethics of the individual determine whether it's wrong or bad to deceive, or whether it's only wrong or bad to lie.

You ask "Is Mark in today?" I reply "I haven't seen him." No, I haven't seen him. But I heard him come in, and we had a conversation over the cubicle wall, and I heard him tell me he'd be down the hall for the rest of the day. I didn't lie to you, I just chose to answer with a sophistry: the truth, presented literally in the knowledge you would misinterpret it. Truthful? Yes, my statement was exactly truthful. Deceptive? Yep: I know you're looking for Mark and I know he's here, and I answer in a way to suggest I don't know if he's here. Unethical? You decide.
 
I see so it's wrong only if it "contradicts" or means the exact opposite. Wow, you really have set the bar low for honesty.

No, I set the bar appropriately for what constitutes a lie, I made no claims in my response about the requirements for dishonesty (which is, believe it or not, not quite synonymous). And that is what Tragic Monkey asked me about - not if his statement was dishonest, but whether or not it was a lie. It is dishonest of YOU to misrepresent what I said, though unlike Monkey's misquote it is not actually a lie on your part. Can you understand that distinction?
 
I think the problem is that one can be deceptive without lying, via sophistry, omission, and stating something in a way that is factually truthful but meant to convey something else. The ethics of the individual determine whether it's wrong or bad to deceive, or whether it's only wrong or bad to lie.

You ask "Is Mark in today?" I reply "I haven't seen him." No, I haven't seen him. But I heard him come in, and we had a conversation over the cubicle wall, and I heard him tell me he'd be down the hall for the rest of the day. I didn't lie to you, I just chose to answer with a sophistry: the truth, presented literally in the knowledge you would misinterpret it. Truthful? Yes, my statement was exactly truthful. Deceptive? Yep: I know you're looking for Mark and I know he's here, and I answer in a way to suggest I don't know if he's here. Unethical? You decide.

Sure, if that's what the article was talking about. It's not. President isn't being symantec about the quotes, he's just not defining what "pretty much" means.
 
But now you're no longer discussing his speech, you're discussing his decision-making process, which wasn't the topic of the OP. And you're also in much more uncertain waters, because from our external position we really can't know what Bush considers when making decisions, we can only know what the final decisions are.
Ahem. I was responding to a point that I thought was not well-made. As for what Bush considers when making decisions, one can learn about this from a number of sources, including (but not limited to) Bob Woodward's "Plan of Attack," Colin Powell, Richard Clarke, and others. We also hear it from little Bush's own mouth, when he "advocates" for what he wants.
But that ISN'T any different than other politicians. That IS politics.
I recommend you pay more attention to the practices of past politicians and to history. I stand by my assertion that little Bush stands nearly alone in his selectiveness. His predecessors have not been as dishonest on foreign policy as he has, and it is incorrect to say that all politicians are that way.
Trust is a funny thing, and there are different kinds of it. If Bush says he will do something, even our enemies trust that he will probably do it. That kind of trust is worth quite a lot. I doubt someone as "trustworthy" as Carter, for example, had as much of that kind of trust as Bush does.
Bush cried "wolf" when there was no wolf, thereby trashing the United States' national prestige and credibility. In the event of an actual emergency, if Bush cries "wolf" again, it is very unlikely that anyone else in the world will take his warning seriously, even if it very well-founded in fact. People do NOT trust him.

Since you brought up Carter, let's talk about him. Carter has tremendous personal prestige and trustworthiness now, and he also was deemed internationally trustworthy while he was president. His perseverence and prestige led to the Camp David accords, recognition of China, and widespread consistency in foreign relations. He did not invade any countries under false pretenses.
Back to speculation. And off topic as well: Clinton's actual speeches were still always given from a very definite perspective, and did not dwell on all the possible counterarguments. That's the way it has always been, and that's perfectly acceptable. I wouldn't want Lincoln, for example, to have talked about the possibility of making peace with the South during his Gettysburg address, even if it made his speech more "balanced" and less "selective".
You'd better go back and read Clinton's speeches, because you seem to be the one who is speculating. Or, to be more blunt, you don't know what you are talking about. First, Clinton did not habitually paint a rosy picture when the situation was not rosy, as little Bush has frequently done. Second, Clinton's people--from both parties, mind you--marveled that he made a point of knowing as much as he could about a foreign policy issue, to the point of being the most educated person in the room. Third, Clinton had the b@lls to stand up and take questions about his policies from the media, even from people in the media whom he knew did not like him and who asked hostile questions. Clinton defended his policies exceptionally well. Little Bush does not have the b@lls to do this.
 
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Sure, if that's what the article was talking about. It's not. President isn't being symantec about the quotes, he's just not defining what "pretty much" means.

In this case, the speaker seems to have defined "pretty much" as "not"! Which makes him pretty much a good speaker.
 
Everything's relative. It is hypocritical to hold one set of politicians to a different standard than others. I don't like it, and don't think it makes it better. But also don't think it is worthy of singling Bush out for doing this.
So because something happens often, you cannot bring yourself to condemn any particular case.

Orwell would be proud. (Well, horrified, but then proud - of himself.)
 
No, I set the bar appropriately for what constitutes a lie, I made no claims in my response about the requirements for dishonesty (which is, believe it or not, not quite synonymous). And that is what Tragic Monkey asked me about - not if his statement was dishonest, but whether or not it was a lie. It is dishonest of YOU to misrepresent what I said, though unlike Monkey's misquote it is not actually a lie on your part. Can you understand that distinction?
No, sorry, I can't. It seems to me you are playing a silly semantics game to be consistent with your political bias. You could help me understand better by telling me about a similar situation involving someone with whom you disagree.
 
"They're pretty much ready to go it on their own" suggests they don't need our help. "But until they are properly equipped, they'll need our help" means that a) they're not properly equipped, and b) they need our help still, and b) seems to be a contradiction of "they're ready to go it on their own". Which makes it odd that Wood would have said "they're pretty much ready to go it on their own", unless he was speaking extemperaneously and thought to modify the statement when he was stating something he didn't think to be the case. Certainly the end effect of the two sentences isn't "they're ready to go it on their own", which is what Bush presented him as saying. He DID say the first bit, the bit quoted. But he didn't MEAN it, as he went on to qualify it into a contradiction.

This is one of the more substantive arguments put forward so far, and I want to acknowledge that before I start arguing with it.

For clarity, let me label the two sentences fro, Lt. Col. Wood:
(1) They're pretty much ready to go it on their own
(2) But until they are properly equipped, they'll need our help
Now there's a bit of tension intrinsic in these two sentences. On one level, they seem a little contradictory, as you point out. My problem is with your contention that (1) is somehow negated by (2) so that using the first sentence alone is deceptive. The implication here is that using (2) on its own, without (1), would be more accurate. But based only on the record we have of Wood's comments, we can't really conclude that.

There are a number of different ways the two statements could be meant, some of them make the former statement more relevant, some the latter. For example, if the Iraqi troops Wood refers to are being equipped and that process is nearing completion, then (1) would seem to be more relevant. If they're completely trained and ready to go except for the equipment, but the equipping process is only beginning and has a long way to go, then (2) would seem to be more relevant. So which is it? I don't know, but the best person to answer that question would be Lt. Col. Wood himself, not the journalist who interviewed him.
 

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