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Predicting Random Events Accurately 60% of the Time?

It's also important to realize that the probability of each event is not necessarily one divided by the number of possible events. And when you are dealing with an ordered set, like a deck of Zener cards, then the probability is described by permutations instead of combinations, which increases the probability of getting it right compared to one in five.


That's ignoring the effect of human fallibility. Chances are, the professor isn't going to be much good at keeping track of which cards have been used (unless he's a professional card-counter -- or the Rain Man).

If he's still be making his guesses on the assumption that each card is equally likely to show up, the results will still be close to 20% correct.

An extreme example would when there's only two cards left. If there's only two possible outcomes, in theory he has a 50% chance of getting it right, but in practice he'll have no idea which two cards are left, and only have get it right 20% of the time.

And as for the last card, there's only one possible outcome, so in theory he has a 100% chance of getting it right... but if he still has no idea which card it is, that doesn't help him at all.
 
fls,

Regarding the Zenner Cards, I did bring up that issue, but the professor had in mind an experiment with 5 shuffled cards where a prediction was made and one was selected. The card would then be replaced and the deck shuffled before another prediction was made, making each trial independent.

That brings up the issue of adequate mixing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markov_chain_mixing_time) if it was an actual experiment.

It does sound interesting. I hope the professor is able to give you more information about what he is talking about.

If I do decide to experiment, are there any online calculators or tools that would help me calculate the odds of, say, getting 60 coin tosses right out of 100?

There are lots of free online binomial calculators (or apps if you have a smart phone).

I'm also thinking about doing something with a coin toss simulator or random generator - if there was a way to generate two lists of coin toss results (prediction and trial) and cross reference them, that would be a fairly quick way of showing the professor's claim wrong.

Chris

You could do a Monte Carlo simulation with Excel, although it sounds like the experiments are taking advantage of a bias which might not show up in a model. Does this have something to do with early stopping (i.e. stopping when you're ahead) or a Random Walk where one side tends to be ahead more than the other?

ETA: I see you've answered the question as to the source. I'll look through Drunkard's Walk to see if I can figure out which part he's referring to.

Linda
 
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I'm really inclined to set up an experiment now - using coin tosses, I'd need at least 59 / 100 accurate predictions to confirm my professor's hypothesis at the .05 level of statistical significance. That still leaves wiggle room (since the actual figure may be around 57%), but Zenner Cards would do the trick pretty quickly and easily. 5/10 accurate predictions would be statistically significant while remaining below the 57-60% figure my professor is claiming.
 
He also added that a person predicting what card would be chosen at random from a deck of Zenner Cards would observe the same 60% success rate.

He is talking about a case where there are only two symbols in the deck, or is he talking about a standard Zenner deck where there are five different symbols in the deck. If the latter, that is an amazingly simple thing to disprove with only a few minutes time. If I were you , I would bet him money on the outcome.
 
Ladewig,

He's talking about a packet of 5 cards, one of each symbol. The cards would be mixed, then a prediction would be made and a card would be chosen. The card would be replaced (after being recorded of course), the packet would be shuffled, and the procedure would be repeated. I couldn't believe he was making that claim, but he was adamant that that was the probability, and insisted I was confusing the probability of the event with the probability of the prediction being accurate.

It would be very easy to disprove - the chances of his predictions being accurate even 50% of the time over 10 trials is just over 3% - but I'll have to see if I can interest him in trying it.

Chris

ETA: I do have money riding on this, but not with the professor - I bet my friend $50 that he and the professor were wrong.
 
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Today, my psychology professor asserted that people can accurately predict random events roughly 60% of the time (he qualified this statement by saying that the actual figure lay around 57% and he was rounding). I asked him for an explanation of this claim, and in the following class discussion, he proceeded to assert that a random person predicting coin tosses would be right, on average, 60% of the time. I countered that that was impossible and the figure should be 50%, but he insisted on 60%. He said I was confusing the actual event with the prediction and that, while ratio of heads to tails should average 50/50, any person or machine making predictions should expect to average around 60% accuracy.

I discussed this claim further with a friend in the class, who said he had seen the study the professor referenced and insisted that a person predicting coin tosses would, in fact, average 60% accuracy. I insisted this was not possible, but he said that it was statistically proven, even though it seemed counterintuitive.

Later, I got a chance to engage the professor further, and he reaffirmed his assertion. He also added that a person predicting what card would be chosen at random from a deck of Zenner Cards would observe the same 60% success rate. He again countered my arguments by saying I was confusing the probability of the event itself with the probability of the prediction. I realize these figures are different (the ratio of heads to tails in a sequence of coin tosses may be 50/50 while the percentage of current predictions may differ substantially), but as far as I can see, the rate of accuracy for predictions should be 50% for a coin toss or 20% for the Zenner Cards no matter how you slice it.

I'm getting the feeling my friend and professor are misquoting whatever study they're trying to reference, but both were adamant about a 60% rate of prediction accuracy on coin tosses and Zenner Cards. Can anyone shed some light on what they might have been getting at?

I'd start by asking for this alleged citation.

Over and above that: it sounds like your psychology professor does not understand statistics. Like... at all.
 
Did the professor say that the number of trials would be fixed in advance? This is crucial. If not, then don't bet against him. Flip coins for long enough, and he could well indeed end up with a 60% hit rate, eventually. At that point he stops the experiment and collects his winnings. It's called "cheating".
 
I'd ask if he understands the result to be a consequence of the probabilities involved, or if he believes the study demonstrated an unknown factor at play, for example "humans have some unknown ability to predict at better than chance". If it's the former, he ought to be able to find a proof. If it's the latter, the circumstances of the trial need to be examined carefully. Will it work if it is a perfectly balanced coin, and if the human is isolated from clues about how the flip is being performed? Will it work if it is a random number generator rather than a physical coin?
 
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One other thing that comes to mind - the professor said that 60% of people choose 60% of their lottery numbers correctly. In other words, if you could gather up all the lotto tickets that have ever been played, 60% of them will have 3 out of 5 numbers correct.

ETA:

Ctamblyn, we didn't get into an experimental design - it was discussed as a function of the laws of probability. I agree that setting the number of trials would be crucial.

Gnome, he seems to think it's a matter of probability - he did say a machine could perform just as well as a human.
 
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Over and above that: it sounds like your psychology professor does not understand statistics. Like... at all.


Other people have said or intimated that in this thread, but you don't say WHY he's wrong. That leads me to believe that you don't understand statistics any more than he does.

Unless of course you want to expand on your post and prove me wrong.

:duck:
 
just cut to the chase, bet your professor $100 that he can't predict the outcome of a coin toss 60% of the time in front of the rest of the class

thats that solved eh
 
Can you get a math professor to talk to this professor?
 
One other thing that comes to mind - the professor said that 60% of people choose 60% of their lottery numbers correctly. In other words, if you could gather up all the lotto tickets that have ever been played, 60% of them will have 3 out of 5 numbers correct.
As with the casinos, such results would put the lottery out of business. The MegaMillions and PowerBall lotteries, for example, pay out $7 for getting 3 correct standard numbers.
 
One other thing that comes to mind - the professor said that 60% of people choose 60% of their lottery numbers correctly. In other words, if you could gather up all the lotto tickets that have ever been played, 60% of them will have 3 out of 5 numbers correct.

ETA:

Ctamblyn, we didn't get into an experimental design - it was discussed as a function of the laws of probability. I agree that setting the number of trials would be crucial.

Gnome, he seems to think it's a matter of probability - he did say a machine could perform just as well as a human.

Well, it was the reference to drunken walks that made me wonder about the number of trials. The ratio hits/trials would fluctuate up and down as the experiment progressed. If you're extremely patient, it seems to me that you would be very likely to see that ratio fluctuate as high as 0.6, at which point you halt the process. I've been trying to find some good references, but I expect some bright statistician will beat me to it :)
 
There's a couple of times you can utterly bug out statistics, but it all works mathematically.

If you flip two coins, and one comes up heads, there's a 67% chance the other one was tails.

It really sounds like he was getting something like that screwed up with predicting which coin flip does what.
Somebody help me out with how that's not slippery language on the slope toward the Gambler's fallacy.

There are four possible outcomes to a set of two coin flips: HH, HT, TH, TT

If you flip two coins, and you know at least one has come up heads (TT didn't happen) there's a 2/3 chance that at least one has come up tails (one of HH, HT, or TH).

Fixing which one has come up heads (say, the first), however, eliminates *two* of the possible outcomes for the set (TH and TT now out of play), leaving only a 50% chance that the specified other will be tails (either HH or HT)
 
As with the casinos, such results would put the lottery out of business. The MegaMillions and PowerBall lotteries, for example, pay out $7 for getting 3 correct standard numbers.

Furthermore, sites like this one Texas lotto show that in the last drawing, only 35,207 people got three out of six. No one could seriously believe that 35,207 represents 60% of all the people who bought lotto tickets in Texas.
 
Other people have said or intimated that in this thread, but you don't say WHY he's wrong. That leads me to believe that you don't understand statistics any more than he does.

Unless of course you want to expand on your post and prove me wrong.

:duck:

I hear what you're saying, but this is an informal discussion forum.

The prof's statements are a sort of 'this one goes to eleven' type of thing that is so not right it's not even wrong. It's hard to know where to start with a refutation. "Dogs are not animals", "the sky is made of fish", "three is a colour, not a number" - how do you refute these claims that are just so obviously wrong?

After 20+ years of dealing with cranks as a skeptic, I want to start a proper debate carefully, lest it go all Neal Adams.
 
I can't help but think that if he truly understood what he was talking about, he would have been able to explain or indicate what he was talking about much better. It sounds like he misunderstood something or it's a trick.

Linda
 
Somebody help me out with how that's not slippery language on the slope toward the Gambler's fallacy.

There are four possible outcomes to a set of two coin flips: HH, HT, TH, TT

If you flip two coins, and you know at least one has come up heads (TT didn't happen) there's a 2/3 chance that at least one has come up tails (one of HH, HT, or TH).

Fixing which one has come up heads (say, the first), however, eliminates *two* of the possible outcomes for the set (TH and TT now out of play), leaving only a 50% chance that the specified other will be tails (either HH or HT)
You gave me different information than I asked for.

All I asked is if one came up Tails. If it did, the chance the other one was Heads is 67%. Period.

You can do this in all sorts of ways. If a family has two kids, and one of them is a boy, the chances that the other one is a girl is 67%.

You worked this out yourself, and then tried to deny what you found out ;)

P.S. Fixing which one was tails totally doesn't help you at all. If I ask 'did one come up tails' and you respond 'the first one came up tails' the second one still has a 67% possibility to be heads. You only decouple the system if I ask 'what did the first coin do' at which point it goes back to 50/50 that you want to see.

P.P.S. This doesn't let you predict the outcomes of any one coin flip 67% of the time, just the outcome of a pair of coin flips given information about the pair.
 
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It sounds to me like your psych prof needs help with rudimentary statistics, if such an obviously-bright student thinks he is saying what it sounds like he's saying. Coinflip = 50/50. Next question.
 

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