Merged Pox Party! / Chicken pox lollipops

[pgwenthold]

Sometimes there aren't enough face-palms.

I am old enough that I remember REAL "chickenpox parties" in the 60's. Yes, if someone in the neighborhood caught one of the "standard childhood diseases" your Mom--this was when Moms were at home--would send you to visit that kid. And the sick kids would rotate between houses as a bunch of us would be in the milder, recovery phases at the same time.

The thing is, once you were over, say, four then your likely course of the disease was milder (or that was the folk wisdom, anyway) than if you caught it as a teenager. So it was in your kid's best interest to catch these things sooner. I had mumps, chicken pox, and possibly the "German Measles" (rubella) before I was in 4th grade, and I caught every one of them from a kid we went to visit on purpose.

So these idiots--and I use the term with full intent--are basically replaying the method used when we HAD NO VACCINES. Because somehow, in their myth-filled minds, it is better to expose your child to a wild disease, with full strength and of unknown severity of results, than to have your child's immune system face the SAME ORGANISM that has been weakened or killed. Because....???

Vaccines do sometimes have side-effects, and they sometimes are severe. However, the only way a vaccine can be approved is if the bad outcomes of the vaccine are much lesser, and much rarer, than bad outcomes of the disease itself!

Those poor children...

I've said this in a few places in response to this topic: I don't get it. They are all so worried about the vaccine, which leads to mild soreness at the injection site for maybe a day in some cases, and where serious reaction is on the order of 1 in million, so they intentionally give the kid the disease, which typically involves more than a week of miserable torture. Moreover, I saw the other day that when the chicken pox was common, that 2 million kids a year would get it, and 100 would die from it. That means that 1/20K DIED from the chicken pox, but apparently more than a week with a miserable child and a 1/20K chance of death is preferable to a day of a sore thigh and a 1/million chance of severe reaction (although I don't believe there have been any deaths associated with the vaccine).

They're not even going the "I'll forego the risk of the vaccine and take my chances on not getting the disease" route. They are deliberately getting sick!

FWIW, the MonkeyBoy didn't even have redness at the injection site on his vaccination last month, and any soreness he might have had was not apparent an hour after the shot. But oh, a case of the chicken pox would have been so much better...

 

[Verde]

when we HAD NO VACCINES.

Quite. In the 50s and early 60s these pox-parties were popular, and I went through everyone of them. My children (80s) and grandchildren(2ks) have all been vaccinated and have suffered from none of the beasties.
That doesn't stop the occasional psychotic Mom (and it always seems to be the mother, protecting her 'little babies'. I've never seen a father do this.) from inviting the kids over whenever someone gets sick. Pointing out that the kids are immune doesn't seem to sit well with her.

V.

 

[ThunderChunky]

Chicken pox is not fun and nobody ever wants to get shingles later in life.... I suppose in some sense it was a right of passage. I felt that way as a child, but as an adult I know better. The idiocy of these parents is astounding.

 

[phildonnia]

If only there were some way to expose people to the virus without them getting sick.

If only...

 

[cwalner]

Sometimes there aren't enough face-palms.

I am old enough that I remember REAL "chickenpox parties" in the 60's. Yes, if someone in the neighborhood caught one of the "standard childhood diseases" your Mom--this was when Moms were at home--would send you to visit that kid. And the sick kids would rotate between houses as a bunch of us would be in the milder, recovery phases at the same time.

The thing is, once you were over, say, four then your likely course of the disease was milder (or that was the folk wisdom, anyway) than if you caught it as a teenager. So it was in your kid's best interest to catch these things sooner. I had mumps, chicken pox, and possibly the "German Measles" (rubella) before I was in 4th grade, and I caught every one of them from a kid we went to visit on purpose.

So these idiots--and I use the term with full intent--are basically replaying the method used when we HAD NO VACCINES. Because somehow, in their myth-filled minds, it is better to expose your child to a wild disease, with full strength and of unknown severity of results, than to have your child's immune system face the SAME ORGANISM that has been weakened or killed. Because....???

Vaccines do sometimes have side-effects, and they sometimes are severe. However, the only way a vaccine can be approved is if the bad outcomes of the vaccine are much lesser, and much rarer, than bad outcomes of the disease itself!

Those poor children...

I was actually in quite the opposite boat. I was 5 years old when my brother caught chicken pox (probably at school or playing with friends that my parents did know have it). This was a huge worry for my parents, not for my brother's health, but for mine. He happened to catch it right as I was returning home from the hospital recovering from open heart surgery. Unfortunately, my parents could not keep me and my brother apart enough and I caught chicken pox from him. Fortunately, it had no lasting effects, but may have slowed my recovery a bit.

So, yeah, I do not understand intentionally exposing children to a disease to build immunity when a vaccine is available.

 

[sophia8]

Yes, another big facepalm here. There's other dangers in this too, besides catching chickenpox. Wrapping up a spit-covered sweet in plastic and letting it marianate for a couple of days in a nice warm padded envelope is a good way of growing all kinds of fascinating organisms. Also, what's to stop some random psycho - or even a bioterrorist - from joining one of these groups, pretending to be a mom with a sick kid and sending out lollipops laced with some interesting pathogen? None of these idiots would recognise that it wasn't chickenpox until way too late.
Oh, and as for letting strangers on the internet know where your kids live - way to go mom!

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Here's one:

http://www.nfid.org/pdf/factsheets/varicellaadult.pdf

Of course much of what I've read suggests it makes shingles less common because the virus is attenuated, but it's still there and can still occur. Nice thing is that there's also a vaccine for shingles.

A person can be vaccinated after the wild virus has already infected the person. Cultures of herpes zoster lesions have detected both vaccine virus and wild virus so both occur, a missed infection prevention and vaccine shingles.

ACIP on Varicella Vaccine:

Cases of HZ in healthy vaccine recipients have been confirmed to be caused by both vaccine virus and wild-type virus, suggesting that certain HZ cases in vaccine recipients might result from antecedent natural varicella infection that might not have been detected by the patient or from infection after vaccination (140).

140. Sharrar RG, LaRussa P, Galea SA, et al. The postmarketing safetyprofile of varicella vaccine. Vaccine 2001;19:916–23.

In a study of leukemic children, the rate of HZ after a mean 4.1 years of follow-up (range: 6 months–10 years) was 2% in vaccine recipients and 15% in controls with a history of varicella ...

...Analysis indicated that the incidence of HZ was approximately three times lower in vaccine recipients (0.80 per 100 person-years) than in the matched leukemic children who had experienced natural varicella (2.46 per 100 person-years) (p = 0.01).(54)

54. Hardy I, Gershon AA, Steinberg S, et al. The incidence of zoster after
immunization with live attenuated varicella vaccine. A study in children with leukemia. N Engl J Med 1991;325:1545–50.

A large postlicensure safety study performed through surveys conducted every 6 months and validated by medical chart review in the first 9 years of a 15-year follow-up study of >7,000 enrolled children vaccinated with single-antigen varicella vaccine at age 12–24 months estimated HZ disease incidence to be 22 per 100,000 person-years (CI = 13–37) as reported by parents (Steven Black, MD, Northern California Kaiser Permanente Medical Care Program, unpublished presentation, 2005). The incidence of HZ was 30 per 100,000 person-years among healthy children aged 5–9 years (154) and 46 per 100,000 person-years for those aged <14 years (64). However, these rates are drawn from different populations and based on different methodologies. In addition, a proportion of children in these age groups would not have experienced varicella disease; those rates are likely to underestimate rates in a cohort of children all infected with wild-type VZV, making direct comparison difficult with a vaccinated cohort.

64. Donahue JG, Choo PW, Manson JE, Platt R. The incidence of herpes zoster. Arch Intern Med 1995;155:1605–9.

There are a lot more studies described in the document for anyone interested. The consensus is the vaccine is safer than natural infection for both the problems with shingles and the primary infection.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

If only there were some way to expose people to the virus without them getting sick.

If only...

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Well, I still don't see where it says that the vaccine can cause shingles (though I suppose we'll find out when the the bulk of children who received the vaccination have reached a shingle-prone age). .....

See my post #47 above.

 

[Lisa Simpson]

My son developed arthritis in reaction to chickenpox and he used to get physical therapy with a boy who'd had a stroke in reaction to it. It's not always the easy peasy illness some parents think it is. I was happy to get my youngest the vax.

 

[dirtywick]

Well, I still don't see where it says that the vaccine can cause shingles (though I suppose we'll find out when the the bulk of children who received the vaccination have reached a shingle-prone age). I suppose, as you implied above, the smartest thing to do is to get the shingles vax as well.

When I got it, my younger brother and sister also got it. There were three of us sick at once. I just remember itching like crazy - and being told not to scratch.

It's the last sentence under the prevention section.

The same virus is responsible for both. The virus is always present, but dormant in nerve tissue after you get chickenpox and can emerge and cause shingles later in life when the immune system is weakened or under stress (probably has something to do with elevated cortisol I'd guess).

The chickenpox vaccine is a live virus vaccine, but attenuated so the symptoms of shingles tend to be less extreme and less frequent than those who got it the old fashioned way. My guess would be that while it's mostly a children's vaccine, adults can get the vaccine as well and they're basing most of their statistics off of them.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

....
The chickenpox vaccine is a live virus vaccine, but attenuated so the symptoms of shingles tend to be less extreme and less frequent than those who got it the old fashioned way. My guess would be that while it's mostly a children's vaccine, adults can get the vaccine as well and they're basing most of their statistics off of them.

Who do you mean by, "they"?

The studies on the disease and the vaccine include many children in the study groups.


As for the stats, before the vaccine, in the US, roughly 10% of people age 19 and over escaped childhood without getting chicken pox. These people make up one of the most important groups to vaccinate.

About 30% of cases of chicken pox in children do not have a rash at all. If you are an adult or older teen now, and you had chicken pox you need not do anything. If your parents don't recall you've ever had it, it is recommended you get a blood test to see if you have had the infection and if not, get the vaccine.

 

[stevea]

You can still get shingles from the vaccine also. But not dealing with chicken pox and having the risk of shingles is better than having the same risk but also going through the full blown virus.

Yes - true as it's a live virus but some large scale study showed a significant but much lower incidence.

...The idiocy of these parents is astounding.

So is the entire UK populated by idiots in your closed minded opinion too ? They don't use the vaccine as a national policy except for immune compromised and special cases.

The concern is that the vaccine, unlike the conventional infection, will not confer lifetime immunity and therefore might result in a lot of geriatric chickenpox with much higher health consequences. The widespread use of the vaccine is a national experiment. Yes it's effective at preventing pox and even reducing the incidence of shingles for a few decades, but the long term consequence are unknown. Lacking any real evidence of the long term effects, then opting-out of the vaccination experiment and choosing a 'traditional' infection (as the UK does) is not idiocy at all.

I'm really tired of ppl on this forum demagoguing valid ideas they disagree with.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

....
So is the entire UK populated by idiots in your closed minded opinion too ? They don't use the vaccine as a national policy except for immune compromised and special cases.

The concern is that the vaccine, unlike the conventional infection, will not confer lifetime immunity and therefore might result in a lot of geriatric chickenpox with much higher health consequences. The widespread use of the vaccine is a national experiment. Yes it's effective at preventing pox and even reducing the incidence of shingles for a few decades, but the long term consequence are unknown. Lacking any real evidence of the long term effects, then opting-out of the vaccination experiment and choosing a 'traditional' infection (as the UK does) is not idiocy at all.

I'm really tired of ppl on this forum demagoguing valid ideas they disagree with.

This is an economic concern, not a medical concern. When you look at risk vs benefit, there is no question the vaccine is safer, When you look at cost vs benefit, poor countries are better off not vaccinating unless they can assure the funds to give adult boosters if they are needed. Better to lose 10 kids now than 100 adults later.

That the UK decided not to save the 10 kids/yr* at the cost of vaccinating everyone including future boosters was more an economical decision than a medical one. I suppose if you wanted to justify your economic decision you could argue adults are less reliable for getting needed boosters. The fallacy with this argument is we know the 10 kids are going to die this year and we don't know a failure of adults to get boosters in the future is going to be an issue. For that matter, it is very possible, even probable that we could have excellent anti-viral drugs to treat varicella in 20 years.


*Going by my memory, there were ~10 varicella fatalities the year the US decided to implement universal vaccine recommendations.

 

[catsmate]

As for the stats, before the vaccine, in the US, roughly 10% of people age 19 and over escaped childhood without getting chicken pox. These people make up one of the most important groups to vaccinate.

About 30% of cases of chicken pox in children do not have a rash at all. If you are an adult or older teen now, and you had chicken pox you need not do anything. If your parents don't recall you've ever had it, it is recommended you get a blood test to see if you have had the infection and if not, get the vaccine.

My own experience of chickenpox was unpleasant, I didn't get it as a kid but picked it up from a nephew in my twenties. If the vaccine has been available back then I'd certainly have opted for it once my siblings started breeding and bringing their disease magnets to visit.

 

[Corsair 115]

So some folks think imitating an episode of South Park is a good thing?

 

[Susheel]

I remember getting chicken pox as a kid...goave it to my sis and dad. I remember dad being a whiny grouch during the period and my mom still says that he was the worst of the lot. We were happy with staying at home from school and watching tv or reading comic books. My sister spent most of her time using the bed as a trampoline.

When my son was born and we went through his vaccination schedule, the chicken pox vaccine was offered as an option at extra cost. When i asked his pediatrician about this, she suggested that it would be a good idea and wait until ten and see if he got it naturally. If not, then vaccinate. Something about his resistance to other diseases being stronger and longer lasting if he got it naturally. Not sure how much substance there was in this stance, but she has been an efficient and caring doctor to my son so I bowed to her expertise. He got chicken pox and got over it in a little over a week with no fuss.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I remember getting chicken pox as a kid...goave it to my sis and dad. I remember dad being a whiny grouch during the period and my mom still says that he was the worst of the lot. We were happy with staying at home from school and watching tv or reading comic books. My sister spent most of her time using the bed as a trampoline.

When my son was born and we went through his vaccination schedule, the chicken pox vaccine was offered as an option at extra cost. When i asked his pediatrician about this, she suggested that it would be a good idea and wait until ten and see if he got it naturally. If not, then vaccinate. Something about his resistance to other diseases being stronger and longer lasting if he got it naturally. Not sure how much substance there was in this stance, but she has been an efficient and caring doctor to my son so I bowed to her expertise. He got chicken pox and got over it in a little over a week with no fuss.

Three things to consider:

1) When any new drug comes on the market, including vaccines, the risk/benefit comparison is different than when the drug has been on the market for a few years and we gain more knowledge of the risks and effectiveness. When varicella vaccine was first introduced, the target was older teens and adults that had not had natural chicken pox since the disease is much worse on average in that group. The benefit of preventing disease in that population is great. After years on the market the risks remained minimal. The benefit even in younger children could now be said to be greater than any risk the vaccine might pose.

2) When new treatments/drugs/medical knowledge are discovered or determined to be the best practice, it takes time for the information to be disseminated and integrated into standard practice.

3) Not all doctors are well informed on everything and can be good doctors that nonetheless still have knowledge deficits (hopefully temporary deficits).


I work in a specialty. I find good physicians all the time that are not current in their knowledge of infectious disease. It's the nature of the business with so much rapidly changing/growing information.

 

[pgwenthold]

Not sure how much substance there was in this stance, but she has been an efficient and caring doctor to my son so I bowed to her expertise. He got chicken pox and got over it in a little over a week with no fuss.

Well, my 1 yr old got the vaccine. HE got over it in about 20 minutes (by the time we got out of the doctor's office), although he did have a little fuss. Then again, 20 minutes of fuss is pretty normal for him. He does that when he doesn't get a banana the instant he wants it or when I refuse to let him have Froot Loops for a snack.

Now, getting vaccinated is no guarantee, but it does reduce the likelyhood of getting the disease, and reduce severity of it if you do, so putting up with 20 minutes of fuss is pretty minor.

 

[Susheel]

Oh, by the way, I am not condoning "pox parties" or the "pox pops" (saliva coated sugar sweets let to mature poses quite a lot of dangers besides the cp virus, and i dont think my doctor would agree with me on this). I guess one of the issues in countries like India is that the transport and storage of the vaccines are not under ideal monitored and optimum conditions. This could mean that the efficacy of the vaccine may not be optimum. And as illnesses go, cp is a pretty benign disease. So getting it naturally at a young age seems to be better than being injected with some stuff that may not ultimately even have the desired effect.