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Power cords improve audio performance!

Then what is the point of it?

isn't it possible that there is a measureable mechanincal/electronic difference in current that doesn't amount to a measurable audible difference?

A properly designed piece of equipment, an amplifier for example, would not be affected by variations in the a/c supply. I'd agree with your post because that is the way the equipment should be working. Yes, a measurable fluctuation in the input current (actually the current should always fluctuate, the voltage should not) may not cause any change in the audio.

Now, if there is a difference in audio, it can be measured, and I dare say better than a person can hear it.

If the difference in the audio is not audible, why chase it? Oh wait, audiophiles can hear it....

I think all "audio magic" products are pure BS.
 
The entire loop from the watt-hour meter through the wall wiring through the power socket through the power cord into the transformer in the equipment and back again may easily be more than 2 ohms. But we are talking about "magic power cords" here though, and how much these cords will affect the audio.
I agree! I guess I was unclear in my previous posts that the average audiophile, in a residential structure, without specially installed high-spec circuits for their audio room, are already hamstrung so badly that solid oxygen-free copper silver-plated 10mm square bus bars from the amplifier to the wall receptical coulld not improve the sound.:D

I agree that if you use less than minimum spec wiring, going to proper spec will help. Nothing much you can do about the entire electrical loop, so let's look at only the power cord.
Well, unless the cord you are using is effectively just tinsel wire, bad supply to the wall outlet will dominate.

How much effect does a properly specced and constructed power cord affect the audio as compared with them "magic power cords"?
Not At All.:D

And for your "ETA", equipment is run from a d/c supply internally with the support of large value capacitors to provide a stable voltage. A properly designed regulated power supply will provide a stable d/c that should not be affected by the load. Even if they were not properly designed psus, how will the "magic power cord" affect the d/c voltage?
There are two kinds of regulation specified for proper power supplies: line and load. Load regulation is the change in output voltage with changes in load current, which includes transients. Line regulation is the change in output voltage under load with changes in input voltage. If the changes in load current (caused by music dynamics) reflected back to the input cause the input voltage to change (due to drop in the line wiring), it can show up as an output voltage change that then could affect the sound. If the cord is REALLY bad, then a new (but only reasonable quality) cord could help. No need to spend more than $10.00 or so.:)

Cheers,
Dave
 
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I also am an audio professional. The only times I've seen ANY cable make a difference in sound quality is if, say, a mic cable is wired single ended and has poor shielding, or a speaker wire is too thin and drops voltage at high drive level.
That, and some just have nicer connectors on them and are more supple and fail less.
But any sufficiently conductive (heavy guage) speaker cable is fine.
Long runs of low level signals should be dual-ended (balanced audio) and properly shielded with a continuous shield.
Professional audio is WOO FREE.
Only the uneducated slobs believe in this brilliant pebble kind of BS. Of course, they don't even know what causes hum, distortion, etc, so they have to pretend to be audio afficionados with fancy do nothing gadgets.
Good speakers and a decent amp DO make a difference. Having 10dB more power available than what you intend to really use (having headroom) makes a pretty noticable difference because both music and voice program material has a load of dynamic range, so if the sound aaaah takes 10 watts to reproduce at a comfortable level, use a 100 watt amp for that room and music won't distort. Of course, even 10 watts of voice is good enough for a pretty big room....
 
These topics are debated long and hard on Hi Fi forums.

http://forum.hifichoice.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=15486&sid=474044a9416dc1619f9c97bb36858e07

This excellent thread was started by the resident sceptic at Hi Fi Choice and is terrific and entertaining

also read the following glossary of nonsense

http://forum.hifichoice.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=20002

And finally the great cable debate on Hi Fi Wigwam with results of a genuine double blind listening test conducted by members

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/forum1/1614-12.html

The bottom line of which was that the golden ears of the testers could not reliably detect the difference between a £2 kettle lead and a £100 audiophool lead.

If you want a better sound, buy better hi fi that sounds better to your ears when you listen to your favourite music in your own home. If you have money to burn, sell me the kit you no longer want at second hand values and then go out and spend the national debt of a small banana republic on your next set of boxes
 
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The best power cables for good sound are definately 3 phase 128 amp... :p carrying em around sure is a pain though...

-Andrew
 
Hi,
Re: Batteries in stomp boxes, specifically Fuzz Faces.
I can testify that near-dead batteries in the 60's models (germainium transistors vs later silicon, and almost certainly what D.A. would have used) make them sound different in measureable ways. I don't know about the other models, since I've never played with them much, but I've built a few of the Ge ones and they're finicky. Ambient temperature, battery voltage, variations in the bias... they all make them sound a little (or a lot) different, not to mention the less-than-stellar consistency between old Ge transistors.

Side note about the Si vs Ge transistors issue (if anyone likes old fuzz boxes). I found that if I dropped 2N3906's into a stock Ge circuit, they sounded horrid, but if one actually took the time to tweak the bias (about 1/2 supply voltage depending on the sound you like), they sounded similar to Ge, to the point that I'm not totally sure I'd consistantly hear a difference. I'd bet strongly against in a performance setting.

For the record, I'm a drummer, not a guitar player or Electronics Engineer. ***insert appropriate drummer joke here*** :)

Anyway, sorry about the minor derail. Back to lurk mode...
 
I wonder if there's money to be made selling vacuum pumps to hi-fi buffs

Well - not for use in cd players, but there have been (are?) turntables and tonearms that require the use of a vacuum pump. In some straight-tracking tonearms, the idea was to float the arm on air and thus reduce friction; in turntables, a vacuum is used to pull down and flatten the record, definitely a worthy goal as so many records have at leats a little warpage, and too many, a lot. I had such a tonearm once, which worked very well, and it once was my ambition to own a Versa turntable. The Versa turntables used a vacuum pump to float its tonearm and for record clamping. Price for the cheap model was over $7,000; the expensive one, $12,000. Never got close to being able to afford one. Now that I no longer own a phono system, I no longer care.
 
Well, I'm a guitar player *and* and an electrical engineer, and I can also hear the difference in battery types in certiain distortion circuits. The rumor I heard was that it was the cell chemistry (carbon-zinc vs. alkaline) that cause the difference in sound, not the brand of battery. The story was that carbon-zinc batteries (which were used in the 60's) sounded darker because they put out less voltage.

I didn't think there could be an audible difference so I went to the 99 cent store and bought a few packages of both 9V battery types. I tried them in my Tubescreamer and I was surprised that there was a real difference; the alkaline battery sounded brighter than the carbon-zinc. Next, I made some voltage vs. current measurements and found that the carbon-zinc battery actually had *more* voltage than the alkaline battery, not less. However, the voltage vs. current plot showed that the carbon-zinc battery had more voltage loss as more current was drawn. This means that the carbon-zinc battery has a higher internal impedance than the alkaline cell.

Battery internal impedance is important in a distortion circuit because it determines how stable the 9V supply will be. An ideal battery has zero internal impedace so any stray signals that try to get onto the 9V bus will be shorted to ground. If the impedance is higher, signals created in one stage of the disortion circuit can get onto the 9V bus and interact with the other stages. A signal on the 9V bus will look like a change in supply voltage to the other stages in the circuit, so an additional signal path is created within the circuit. When this kind of interaction exists, high frequencies are the first to be diminished because the 'filtering' is worse at high frequencies than at low. Anyway, my guess is that the carbon-zinc 9V batteries have less filtering ability than alkaline batteries, so signals are more free to interact within the circuit and kill highs.

I know many people will think this is all b.s., but I've found that guitar electronics are very different from the kinds of electronics that most people use. Guitarists actually want distortion to occur, and when distortion occurs, strange things happen in the circuit. Most electrical engineers don't think too much about what happens when their circuits distort because they don't allow their circuits to distort in the first place. In this respect and others, guitar electronics is its own field of study so it is common for a good hi-fi engineer to come along and tell the guitar players that everything we are doing is wrong!

Another example of this is the effect of guitar cable on sound. Hi-fi and studio electronics are designed to have a low output impedance and a relatively high input impedance. This allows long cable runs to be used without significant signal loss, so using better or worse cables isn't going to cause an audible difference. But some guitar players have noticed that some guitar cables sound different than others, and this is in conflict with what hi-fi and studio engineers believe. It turns out that guitar pickups actually have a very high output impedance. Their internal impedance is mostly inductive, on the order of 2 to 7 Henrys (not millihenries). On the cable side, the cable lengths are much longer than in a hi-fi system, at 20 feet or more. With that much cable, the cable capacitance is large (700pF or so) and this creates a resonant circuit with the guitar pickup inductance. I know that some hi-fi nuts talk about speaker cable resonance as if it made a difference (it doesn't), but in the guitar world, the resonance exists (around 3-4kHz is common). The resonance puts a peak in the guitar pickup frequency response and it *is* audible. I've experimented with adding other small capacitances to the pickup and moving the resonant peak around to create different effects.

Since guitar cable capacitance has a direct effect on the sound of the guitar, it should not be surprising that guitar players will say they can differences in guitar cable. Some cables have more capacitance than others, and some people use short cables that have much less capacitance than is typical. Recently, I was at a studio doing some direct recording and the studio engineer handed me a very short cable he had made. I tried it out with a Stratocaster and heard some harsh noises coming out of the studio monitors. So I tried one of my 20' long cables and the extra capacitance took the edge off the guitar sound. The studio engineer was very impressed and didn't seem at all disappointed that his special short cable sounded bad.

Getting back to Eric Johnson, he's a frustrating guy because he believes *everything* changes the sound of his guitar. In certain cases, some of the weird things he believes are actually true but many other times, he is wrong. One story is that he had his guitar technician remove the steel screws from his guitar speaker cabinet and replace them with brass screws, hoping for an improvement in sound. Another is that he removed the screw from the bottom of his Fuzz-Face and used rubber bands to hold the cover in place. He says removing the screw made it sound better! Personally, I think Eric Johnson is more likely to be wrong than right, but he's right often enough that I investigate his opinions for myself and make my own decisions based on the facts I discover.
 
isn't it possible that there is a measureable mechanincal/electronic difference in current that doesn't amount to a measurable audible difference?

Yes, I've been able to measure signal losses that are not audible. For example, I repaired an old Ibanez analog delay pedal, and while it sounded great, I was measuring a 13% loss of signal at the input of the device. I thought something was wrong, so I built a copy of the input circuit and found there was always a measurable signal loss. 13% sounds like a large loss, but it works out to only 1.2dB. Most engineers start to worry when the losses get past 3dB, so this circuit was fine as it was.
 
bjb,

Interesting points about the carbon-zinc vs alkaline batteries. I've heard from others that they sound different in at least some boxes but I've never actually tried it myself because it sounded like bs. I'll go find some alkalines tonight and experiment a little. Being a cheapskate, I already have plenty of carbon-zinc 9v batteries around.
Poor neighbors...

weedillyweedillyweeeeee! :)
 
For the record, I'm a drummer, not a guitar player or Electronics Engineer. ***insert appropriate drummer joke here*** :)

How smart do you have to be to be a drummer? I mean all you have to do is count to 4 then start over.:D
 
Well, I'm a guitar player *and* and an electrical engineer, and I can also hear the difference in battery types in certiain distortion circuits. The rumor I heard was that it was the cell chemistry (carbon-zinc vs. alkaline) that cause the difference in sound, not the brand of battery. The story was that carbon-zinc batteries (which were used in the 60's) sounded darker because they put out less voltage.

I didn't think there could be an audible difference so I went to the 99 cent store and bought a few packages of both 9V battery types. I tried them in my Tubescreamer and I was surprised that there was a real difference; the alkaline battery sounded brighter than the carbon-zinc. Next, I made some voltage vs. current measurements and found that the carbon-zinc battery actually had *more* voltage than the alkaline battery, not less. However, the voltage vs. current plot showed that the carbon-zinc battery had more voltage loss as more current was drawn. This means that the carbon-zinc battery has a higher internal impedance than the alkaline cell.

Battery internal impedance is important in a distortion circuit because it determines how stable the 9V supply will be. An ideal battery has zero internal impedace so any stray signals that try to get onto the 9V bus will be shorted to ground. If the impedance is higher, signals created in one stage of the disortion circuit can get onto the 9V bus and interact with the other stages. A signal on the 9V bus will look like a change in supply voltage to the other stages in the circuit, so an additional signal path is created within the circuit. When this kind of interaction exists, high frequencies are the first to be diminished because the 'filtering' is worse at high frequencies than at low. Anyway, my guess is that the carbon-zinc 9V batteries have less filtering ability than alkaline batteries, so signals are more free to interact within the circuit and kill highs.

I know many people will think this is all b.s., but I've found that guitar electronics are very different from the kinds of electronics that most people use. Guitarists actually want distortion to occur, and when distortion occurs, strange things happen in the circuit. Most electrical engineers don't think too much about what happens when their circuits distort because they don't allow their circuits to distort in the first place. In this respect and others, guitar electronics is its own field of study so it is common for a good hi-fi engineer to come along and tell the guitar players that everything we are doing is wrong!

Another example of this is the effect of guitar cable on sound. Hi-fi and studio electronics are designed to have a low output impedance and a relatively high input impedance. This allows long cable runs to be used without significant signal loss, so using better or worse cables isn't going to cause an audible difference. But some guitar players have noticed that some guitar cables sound different than others, and this is in conflict with what hi-fi and studio engineers believe. It turns out that guitar pickups actually have a very high output impedance. Their internal impedance is mostly inductive, on the order of 2 to 7 Henrys (not millihenries). On the cable side, the cable lengths are much longer than in a hi-fi system, at 20 feet or more. With that much cable, the cable capacitance is large (700pF or so) and this creates a resonant circuit with the guitar pickup inductance. I know that some hi-fi nuts talk about speaker cable resonance as if it made a difference (it doesn't), but in the guitar world, the resonance exists (around 3-4kHz is common). The resonance puts a peak in the guitar pickup frequency response and it *is* audible. I've experimented with adding other small capacitances to the pickup and moving the resonant peak around to create different effects.

Since guitar cable capacitance has a direct effect on the sound of the guitar, it should not be surprising that guitar players will say they can differences in guitar cable. Some cables have more capacitance than others, and some people use short cables that have much less capacitance than is typical. Recently, I was at a studio doing some direct recording and the studio engineer handed me a very short cable he had made. I tried it out with a Stratocaster and heard some harsh noises coming out of the studio monitors. So I tried one of my 20' long cables and the extra capacitance took the edge off the guitar sound. The studio engineer was very impressed and didn't seem at all disappointed that his special short cable sounded bad.

Getting back to Eric Johnson, he's a frustrating guy because he believes *everything* changes the sound of his guitar. In certain cases, some of the weird things he believes are actually true but many other times, he is wrong. One story is that he had his guitar technician remove the steel screws from his guitar speaker cabinet and replace them with brass screws, hoping for an improvement in sound. Another is that he removed the screw from the bottom of his Fuzz-Face and used rubber bands to hold the cover in place. He says removing the screw made it sound better! Personally, I think Eric Johnson is more likely to be wrong than right, but he's right often enough that I investigate his opinions for myself and make my own decisions based on the facts I discover.
Great, informative post, BJB.:clap:

Sounds like you do the due diligence [sp?] that more people should do!

I especially liked the point about interaction on the Vcc bus and the point on impedance, resonance, and cable type.

Cheers,
Dave
 
electronic devices in general working differently as the batteries go flat -- that's reasonable.
In the case of a distortion unit, it makes perfect sense. When the battery dies, you get clipping. In a radio this sounds really nasty. But when the idea is to distort the input, you get a trashiness that in some musical settings is just right.

I use software instruments, effects, and gear almost exclusively these days, so I just adjust a waveshaper or tweak a foldback, as desired, with no worries about supply voltages. :-} Ahhh, such luxury -- for so little money compared to hardware!
 
bjb said:
The story was that carbon-zinc batteries (which were used in the 60's) sounded darker because they put out less voltage.

[...] Next, I made some voltage vs. current measurements and found that the carbon-zinc battery actually had *more* voltage than the alkaline battery, not less.

I suppose I could get round to testing that much myself. I don't have any effects pedals. I'm mostly an acoustic player. When I do use effects, it's from an all in one processor which has tailor-made power supply.



But as I remember it, Eric Johnson favoured a particular brand rather than a particular type. I don't have an actual quote of him, however. All I can find are rumours regarding what he said ('he favours Duracell'). But maybe he prefers a particular type.

bjb said:
Getting back to Eric Johnson, he's a frustrating guy because he believes *everything* changes the sound of his guitar.

Somedays I sound better than others. I take that as I phrased it, ie: the difference is down to me being inconsistent. But maybe it is the cable!

Anyway, I'm not a perfectionist the way Eric Johnson is. That probably takes a lot of pressure off me, and explains why I settle for one effects processor rather than a whole bank of boxes!

ChrisC said:
I can testify that near-dead batteries in the 60's models (germainium transistors vs later silicon, and almost certainly what D.A. would have used) make them sound different in measureable ways.

The flat batteries thing I can believe. Bjb's "internal impedance" argument for battery types is out of my league to assess without an experiment.

ChrisC said:
I'll go find some alkalines tonight and experiment a little.

Would you mind trying the experiment by having someone else install batteries at random, so that we have a more objective answer to whether you really can tell the difference?

ChrisC said:
Anyway, sorry about the minor derail. Back to lurk mode...

No, no.
Now we have to switch to talking about getting that elusive Hank Marvin sound! To power the amp you need a lemon, a copper coin and a steel fork!
 
pfft! Lemon shlemon. Limes make your amp warmer and AT LEAST one louder...

I've been very busy (read: I forgot), but I'll definitely try the battery test tomorrow. How about I have someone connect both types in a box with an unlabeled switch so that I can switch them by myself without a long pause?
From careful study of top-notch audiophile research, I know the switch will add all kinds of quantam negative-energy fields and cosmic oogey boogey resonances, but I'm pretty sure I can hear through it.

If anyone is interested in advising on a serious DBT method, I'd be into trying it for fun with other musicians I know. It was harder than I thought to come up with a good one.

Results to follow.
 
It's hard for me to believe that anyone even falls for this. It's gotten bad. At Tweeter (can I use the name of an acutal company?) they carry high-quality aftermarket power cords, which is sad, because that place is usually pretty good and non-BS.

If you have very bad power. (if it's off frequency, undervolted, full of interferance, varies in voltage), then that could definately mess with components. In that case, an active conditioner might help. But give me a break! The power cord is somehow a weak link (forgetting about all the other crap wiring the power has to travel through).

I got news for these folks. This is 120volt 60hz current. (or 220/50 outside the US/Canada/South America/Japan). 60Hz is relatively...er...low as far as frequency goes. We ain't talking about microwaves here. It's not like you're going to have to go into the RF properties of capacitive and inductive reactance. Jesus...if you're than concerned, you could run your power through an LMR cable all the way out to the pole (to the old ferrite circa-1960 transformer which is past due to be replaced).

'sides. Most of this stuff runs on DC anyway, so it's just gona take your current, downvolt it and then rectify it. If the equipment is decent, it oughta filter out any minor problems.

Selling overprices highquality interlinks...that's one thing. At least there's *some* logic to it. But this. God!
 
From careful study of top-notch audiophile research, I know the switch will add all kinds of quantam negative-energy fields and cosmic oogey boogey resonances, but I'm pretty sure I can hear through it.

Magic happens.

A Story About `Magic'
Some years ago, I (GLS) was snooping around in the cabinets that housed the MIT AI Lab's PDP-10, and noticed a little switch glued to the frame of one cabinet. It was obviously a homebrew job, added by one of the lab's hardware hackers (no one knows who).

You don't touch an unknown switch on a computer without knowing what it does, because you might crash the computer. The switch was labeled in a most unhelpful way. It had two positions, and scrawled in pencil on the metal switch body were the words `magic' and `more magic'. The switch was in the `more magic' position.

I called another hacker over to look at it. He had never seen the switch before either. Closer examination revealed that the switch had only one wire running to it! The other end of the wire did disappear into the maze of wires inside the computer, but it's a basic fact of electricity that a switch can't do anything unless there are two wires connected to it. This switch had a wire connected on one side and no wire on its other side.

It was clear that this switch was someone's idea of a silly joke. Convinced by our reasoning that the switch was inoperative, we flipped it. The computer instantly crashed.

Imagine our utter astonishment. We wrote it off as coincidence, but nevertheless restored the switch to the `more magic' position before reviving the computer.

Cheers,
Dave
 
ChrisC, when I was testing 9V batteries in my TS-10 Tubescreamer (JRC 4558 chip), I soldered a barrel plug to a 9V battery clip and plugged it into the external power jack of the effect. This way, I could install one type of battery inside of the pedal and attach a different type to the clip. I started the test with the external battery plugged in, then I unplugged it to hear what the internal battery sounded like. I plugged and unplugged the battery several times to make sure I really did hear a difference. This wasn't a blind test but there was enough of a difference that I didn't bother with one.

For a real double-blind test, you could make up several of the barrel plug/9V clips and use them to quickly change batteries. Radio Shack has the parts you will need, and cheap batteries can be found at the 99 cent store. The batteries themselves could be covered with masking tape and marked with random numbers, then the batteries would be selected at random for test. I would want two clips with clearly labled carbon-zinc and alkaline batteries available at all times, this way, the guitarists could listen to them for comparison with the unknown battery. This would be an A/B/X test, but it still counts as blind since no one knows what type of battery is being used as the 'X' battery.
 
For the double blind trial:

Prevent people touching the batteries, even if they are covered in tape - alkaline batteries may be heavier than zinc carbon, or the case may feel hotter/colder, etc. I suppose the batteries could be encased in some protective wrapper, and matched in weight, but this would probably make them too large to fit in the available space.

Make sure that all the batteries are equally fresh.

Rechargable NiCad and/or NiMH batteries could also be included in the trial, with or without prior knowledge by the blinded.
 
Here is an interesting blind test in which a bunch of audiophiles listened to music played on the same system using a cheap AC power cord and also an expensive one. The result was, they couldn't hear the difference.
 

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