Potentialities of entheogenic psychedelics (drugs)

[beeksc1]

Thank you for trying to discuss in a peaceful manner. Sorry, you feel I am not a critical thinker; nevertheless, any person who is discussing the potentials of psychedelics has some kind of sense of what is going on.

And right on; all spiritual paths are not identical.

A person who has posted on this thread mentioned a psychological dependency upon psychoactives such as LSD; and concerning the benefits and relative harms of psychedelics, people as such may offer a biased perspective.

Someone who I met has engaged in practices associated with non-ordinary (holistic) states of consciousness (especially entheogens) and virtually all of his experiences were positive; and the one experience that was a "bad trip" was influenced by the presence of authority figures. Someone who I met says nothing negative came from the authority figures on that trip; but he says that he learned more on that journey than he did on some of the experiences that were positive.

It just depends on your take.

Yea, the previous posts does not include every single outcome measure that was used in these studies; yet, most of evidence (which is noted on this thread) is from prominent publications and journals that report on science articles. And no one has posted one reliable/valid/legitimate article reporting that psychedelics / MDMA have no medical or therapeutic value. Most of the comments have tried to express the idea:

1. that the person who noted the original post is trying to show others how to "suck eggs"
2. that the person who noted the original post is deficient in critical thought.

It is pretty obvious both of those opinions are off-base; are not most of people on this forum trying to expand his horizon? Comments that are bitter, caustic, and aim to cut down others are not called for and not needed. But post as your heart desires, it is your worldly freedom to do so.

David, as it sounds, you have much more "real world" experience than the person who noted the first post; and most likely, you have a valuable perspective that other people can learn from. So, if you are going to post, can you note in a way that is not hostile. Some of the people are very interested in what you have to offer; and, a brighter environment would be incubated, if posters simply added another perspective that is not identical to those that are reported in aforementioned journal articles.

That is, it just maybe more tactful, urbane, intelligible, etc. to constructively present another side of the coin, such as

"Some people may think that psychedelic therapy is not necessary; the same effects can be achieved through likewise practices that can induce non-ordinary states of consciousness, such as those that are associated with yoga and meditation."

This poster would agree with a perspective like that; but, it may come down to a time issue. Further, practices associated with psychedelics, yoga, meditation, sensory-deprivation are essentially the same. Yes they implore various ways; yet, all of the practices can yield non-ordinary states of consciousness, which are qualitatively different from the states of awareness a person experiences in everyday situations.

Among other benefits (such as facilitating creative expression, alleviation of anxiety, Tx for PTSD and other concerns; etc) Yoga, mediation, psychedelics, etc allow a person to delve into states of consciousness that may reveal ancient wisdom and the secrets of our universe.

Why would millions of people (for generations and thousands of years) dedicate a lifelong pursuit toward the practice of yoga and/or meditation, if the states of consciousness (that are induced) had no potentialities?

+++

John Halpern forecasts the future (NewScientist)

In the coming months I [John Halpern] will give psychotherapy assisted by MDMA (ecstasy) to dying cancer patients to see if their anxiety, pain and other end-of-life issues improve. I would like to test whether LSD or psilocybin can relieve debilitating cluster headache, and whether peyote offers Native Americans a treatment for drug and alcohol abuse. Within 10 years, enough positive results could establish that there are special benefits from "psychedelics". This may lead to a new field of medicine in which spirituality is kindled to help us accept our mortality without fear, and where those with addiction problems, anxiety or cluster headache discover a path to genuine healing. Capable of inducing the deeply mystical, these substances may prove to be a source for compassion and hope so desperately needed in these perilous times.

John Halpern is assistant professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School

http://www.newscientist.com/channel...n10484-john-halpern-forecasts-the-future.html

 

[Dancing David]

Look dude, you have linked to papers that allegedly support your point of view, and then when i ask critical questions concerning them, what did you say?

I did not examine every last word of the journal article; but if Nature is reporting on it, well... yea you know

what does that mean?

I belive, perhaps incorrectly that you do not understand research, that you are just cherry picking papers on google to support your POV and that you don't even know how to evaluate them.

And then you juts take another trip to Rock Candy Mountain, each one of the alleged 'research papers' you claim supports your position DOES NOT!

They may suggest tentative and speculative avenues of exploration. But they did not show that they reduce headaches, they did not show that they help addiction to alcohol.

Duder, this is the Science forum, if you post here you get what you get.

 

[Dancing David]

Thank you for trying to discuss in a peaceful manner. Sorry, you feel I am not a critical thinker; nevertheless, any person who is discussing the potentials of psychedelics has some kind of sense of what is going on.

Unsupported assertion, kind of sense does not mean anything. Some people have a kind of sense that God exists and that racism is valid. i question them too.

And right on; all spiritual paths are not identical.

A person who has posted on this thread mentioned a psychological dependency upon psychoactives such as LSD; and concerning the benefits and relative harms of psychedelics, people as such may offer a biased perspective.

Nope I enjoyed the addiction from beggining to end. had a good time, except for the panic attacks. walked on the face of god and all that. My perspective is biased, it is called the scientific method, something most mystics are deathly afraid of.

Someone who I met has engaged in practices associated with non-ordinary (holistic) states of consciousness (especially entheogens) and virtually all of his experiences were positive; and the one experience that was a "bad trip" was influenced by the presence of authority figures. Someone who I met says nothing negative came from the authority figures on that trip; but he says that he learned more on that journey than he did on some of the experiences that were positive.

Anecdotes point out the individual nature of experience and are not science. And that is a standard shamanic teaching, the places of fear and dis-solution are the places of testing and growth, i wonder how many of the old schools teach that?

It just depends on your take.

Nope , science is science.

Yea, the previous posts does not include every single outcome measure that was used in these studies; yet, most of evidence (which is noted on this thread) is from prominent publications and journals that report on science articles. And no one has posted one reliable/valid/legitimate article reporting that psychedelics / MDMA have no medical or therapeutic value. Most of the comments have tried to express the idea:

Dude, you don't get. the papers that you linked to do not demonstrate what you said that they demonstrate, there is a process called the scientific method, which perhaps due to lack of training and experience do not know how to apply as a critical tool when you read a reserach paper.

the fact that something gets published means you examine it, try to understand it and ask questions about confounding factors.

The papers that you listed did not demonstrate what you said they demonstrate.

I am sorry but you have to read using those critical skills. especialy when it comes to social science.

The burden is on the one who makes the claim!

1. that the person who noted the original post is trying to show others how to "suck eggs"
2. that the person who noted the original post is deficient in critical thought.

It is pretty obvious both of those opinions are off-base; are not most of people on this forum trying to expand his horizon? Comments that are bitter, caustic, and aim to cut down others are not called for and not needed. But post as your heart desires, it is your worldly freedom to do so.

And I will do so, but when i point out the critical erros in methodlogy and confounding factots, they are imporatant questions to ask.

if you don't understrand why, then ask.

I am not opposed to the use of drugs, i am opposed to people selling snake oil as medicine.

David, as it sounds, you have much more "real world" experience than the person who noted the first post; and most likely, you have a valuable perspective that other people can learn from. So, if you are going to post, can you note in a way that is not hostile. Some of the people are very interested in what you have to offer; and, a brighter environment would be incubated, if posters simply added another perspective that is not identical to those that are reported in aforementioned journal articles.

Suck eggs again?

That is, it just maybe more tactful, urbane, intelligible, etc. to constructively present another side of the coin, such as

"Some people may think that psychedelic therapy is not necessary; the same effects can be achieved through likewise practices that can induce non-ordinary states of consciousness, such as those that are associated with yoga and meditation."

Suck eggs again?

Some people have not demonstrated that there is any benefit to psychedelic drugs as theraputic medications.

This poster would agree with a perspective like that; but, it may come down to a time issue. Further, practices associated with psychedelics, yoga, meditation, sensory-deprivation are essentially the same. Yes they implore various ways; yet, all of the practices can yield non-ordinary states of consciousness, which are qualitatively different from the states of awareness a person experiences in everyday situations.

Among other benefits (such as facilitating creative expression, alleviation of anxiety, Tx for PTSD and other concerns; etc) Yoga, mediation, psychedelics, etc allow a person to delve into states of consciousness that may reveal ancient wisdom and the secrets of our universe.

Um dude most of that is unsupported stuff, if you want to take it to religion and philosophy, that is the place to discuss it.

There is no proven bebefit for PTSD in the use of MDA or MDMA, there is some really poorly controlled research there.

Why would millions of people (for generations and thousands of years) dedicate a lifelong pursuit toward the practice of yoga and/or meditation, if the states of consciousness (that are induced) had no potentialities?

that is not the issue of the medical use of drugs. Now is it?

+++

John Halpern forecasts the future (NewScientist)

http://www.newscientist.com/channel...n10484-john-halpern-forecasts-the-future.html

Op Ed as science, i don't think so.

I kno where you are coming from, i agree with the basic ideas, i just disagree with the application. the use of powerful psychoactive substance, it is something to be done with cautions. As with any powerful substance. i follow many paths and know what benefit that they have for me.

that does not mean that anybody has demonstrated a medical/psychiatric benefit to psychedelia

Do you understand the difference?

 

[Moochie]

Apropos of the general discussion here, there is good reading to be had at

http://www.bltc.com/

"BLTC" stands for "Better Living Through Chemistry." I found the information at the site generally of a high standard.


M.

 

[Zeuzzz]

Therapeutic Potential Of Psychedelics Part 1 (video presentation)

Therapeutic Potential of Psychedelics
Chris Wiegand, M.D.
Post-Graduate year IV, Department of Psychiatry
The University of Arizona College of Medicine

They conclude that there are psychological improvements that can be made, and look at some of the popular studies on these various drugs, etc. Its always a double edged sword, because of course some drugs cause psychological damage in the first place. Thats where the whole term "drugs" becomes a bit vague.

My fiend did MDMA therapy the other day with a somewhat unorthodox, though fully qualified and still working, physician. I'm gonna leave it at that as i'm not sure what the rules are here about telling about experiences on drugs, most forums are really, really strict as soon as you mention that there could be any kind of benefit from the use. I may be wrong, and I'm sure that someone will point out the rules here on this subject.

 

[Dancing David]

There may be benefit, i haven't seen a good demonstration yet. This forum is very open.

 

[CapelDodger]

"BLTC" stands for "Better Living Through Chemistry."

I read that and automatically looked over to my Fred Pohl books (SciFi; peer-reviewed in its own unique way). I guess you had to be there ...

 

[CapelDodger]

There may be benefit, i haven't seen a good demonstration yet. This forum is very open.

There clearly hasn't been any focused research yet, so even if that changes we'll be waiting a while for a credible demonstration of benefit.

 

[Dancing David]

From BLTC
"Opium was a traditional remedy for melancholic depression; its efficacy is arguably superior to Prozac,"

Not really but they may be using humor.\

The Good drugs section is not terrible, mostly good, and it has a lot of accurate information. There is some misinformation, and I just don't like the model used in Talking to Prozac because it uses a very gross scale measure (the BDI) as it's basis.

 

[quarky]

People will trip. It hardly matters about one's legal or moral opinions. I doubt i would have ever taken lsd if my govt. and my guidance counselor and my mom approved. it would be tasty if various authorities on the subject had more airtime, but who cares? What if psychedelic experiences were judged against the lack of them? How proud should we be about being straight, up-standing idiots, bringing on the destruction of everything beautiful and meaningfull? And how critical should we be of some teenager that eats shrooms, instead of driving around with a case of beer? Mind trips need no justification. What needs to be justified is the law. Pick on twinkies and Mt. Dew. Or ignore all that crap and take powerful psycho-active drugs, just for the hell of it. Or don't. Or do it for sacred reasons. Or not. I would love to see a more psychedelic world. I barely trust anyone who hasn't had a mind test experience. If I thought Obama hasn't tripped, I'd vote for someone that had.

 

[Moochie]

From BLTC
"Opium was a traditional remedy for melancholic depression; its efficacy is arguably superior to Prozac,"

Not really but they may be using humor.\

The Good drugs section is not terrible, mostly good, and it has a lot of accurate information. There is some misinformation, and I just don't like the model used in Talking to Prozac because it uses a very gross scale measure (the BDI) as it's basis.

Yeah, you are most likely right. I can speak only from a lay-person's perspective, and most of what I saw there rang true.

It's not easy finding balanced material on the issue of "drugs."

As for Prozac -- I found it of little or no efficacy. Same for Effexor and Zoloft. Given that "efficacy" is very difficult to assess for antidepressants, I'd say that opium's efficacy is arguably superior to the three I mentioned. If it weren't for its addictiveness I'd be willing to try it.


M.

 

[Dancing David]

Well, I would tend to use a quality of life survey when assesing improvement for depression. SSRIs are not going to work on 65% of the people who take them. SNRIs probably have a higher rate. There are also the TCAs and MAOIs. But some people do not have a medication that will work for them. Although some doctors try modd stabalizers as well.

The issue with the use of opium is "is it pallative or treatment?".

 

[quarky]

Why should it matter?

 

[Dancing David]

Because if you treat depression for one dose then the next day what happens? Especialy if they get addicted.

There is also a difference when you just make someone numb vs. making the symptoms go away. Many people with bipolar disorder 'self medicate' with alcohol, it is not an effective treatment. having alcoholism and bipolar disorder with flaming symptoms is not ideal treatment.

 

[PingOfPong]

This is only an anecdote of course but I'd like to throw it into the mix as someone who has partaken of the psychedelic (shrooms and LSD).

This world is the important one. Do you know why? Because all of you are in it all the time. That world of random neon colored geometric shapes is just a silly place for silly people. I'm always puzzled by the proselytizers of LSD or any other drug. Driving to the top of a mountain is not the same as climbing one. Sure, the driver and the climber get the same view but the vision of the climber is different. One cannot buy enlightenment at 10$ a hit.

p.s. I totally stole that last bit. Sorry I can't remember who said it or the exact wording.

 

[Moochie]

This is only an anecdote of course but I'd like to throw it into the mix as someone who has partaken of the psychedelic (shrooms and LSD).

This world is the important one. Do you know why? Because all of you are in it all the time. That world of random neon colored geometric shapes is just a silly place for silly people. I'm always puzzled by the proselytizers of LSD or any other drug. Driving to the top of a mountain is not the same as climbing one. Sure, the driver and the climber get the same view but the vision of the climber is different. One cannot buy enlightenment at 10$ a hit.

p.s. I totally stole that last bit. Sorry I can't remember who said it or the exact wording.

I agree.

My experimentation with LSD happened decades ago, and it was very, very interesting, if only because it taught me how easily our senses can be meddled with.

I certainly would not advocate its use for recreational purposes, particularly by anyone experiencing depression.


M.

 

[CapelDodger]

This is only an anecdote of course but I'd like to throw it into the mix as someone who has partaken of the psychedelic (shrooms and LSD).

This world is the important one. Do you know why? Because all of you are in it all the time. That world of random neon colored geometric shapes is just a silly place for silly people. I'm always puzzled by the proselytizers of LSD or any other drug. Driving to the top of a mountain is not the same as climbing one. Sure, the driver and the climber get the same view but the vision of the climber is different. One cannot buy enlightenment at 10$ a hit.

p.s. I totally stole that last bit. Sorry I can't remember who said it or the exact wording.

Anecdotally, tripping alerted me to how little I was questioning the reality we're presented with. Once I'd got that on-board I carried on because tripping is fun.

I certainly wouldn't advocate it as a therapy; it "worked" for me but I wasn't trying to cure anything. I was coming from a safe place where I felt good about myself. And I tripped with the same kind of people.

 

[CapelDodger]

Because if you treat depression for one dose then the next day what happens? Especialy if they get addicted.

They get shelved, and as long as Mother's Little Helper is relatively cheap they're out of the GP's face. Repeat prescriptions, until they die.

Treatment means professional face-time, which is expensive.

 

[luchog]

This world is the important one. Do you know why? Because all of you are in it all the time. That world of random neon colored geometric shapes is just a silly place for silly people. I'm always puzzled by the proselytizers of LSD or any other drug. Driving to the top of a mountain is not the same as climbing one. Sure, the driver and the climber get the same view but the vision of the climber is different. One cannot buy enlightenment at 10$ a hit.

I certainly would not advocate its use for recreational purposes, particularly by anyone experiencing depression.

"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone; but they've always worked for me." -- Hunter S. Thompson.

LSD, like most "consciousness altering" drugs are vastly overrated. For me, I've found that it works as a sort of mental housecleaning, the sort of things that dreams do naturally, but on a more visible level. It has also functioned as an aid to creativity. Not a source of creativity, or even a stimulant for creativity, as so many acid casualties have claimed; since creativity has to be there already, as an inherent part of you if it is to exist at all. Acid has been merely a source of interesting ideas, when I have been in a creative mood.

"That was the fatal flaw in Tim Leary's trip. He crashed around America selling "consciousness expansion" without ever giving a thought to the grim meat-hook realities that were lying in wait for all the people who took him seriously...All those pathetically eager acid freaks who thought they could buy Peace and Understanding for three bucks a hit. But their loss and failure is ours, too. What Leary took down with him was the central illusion of a whole life-style that he helped to create...a generation of permanent cripples, failed seekers, who never understood the essential old mystic fallacy of the Acid Culture: the desperate assumption that somebody-or at least some force-is tending the Light at the end of the tunnel." -- Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas

 

[CapelDodger]

Oh lordy, spare me Tim Leary and the crusading crew. Puhleease ! Ditto Carlos Castaneda. Knobheads used to bend your ear with all this crapola back in the day. Me, I bought my acid wholesale and sold it on for a tidy profit. (Statute of limitations applies .)

I think I know what you mean by "mental housecleaning". Tripping can break the loops that sometimes form in your head, thoughts going round and round, never resolving.

eta : Hunter S Thompson I've got a lot of time for. No canting fool he. Mad, bad and dangerous to know, but no fool.