Post-revolution polls in Egypt

You didn't, actually. You simply never mentioned them at all. Nor did you mention the rulers of Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, or Libya.

You also haven't answered my questions regarding why you consider the rulers you named to have been "totalitarian", while the megalomaniacal, paranoid autocrat who used his own personal secret police to suppress opposition via torture and murder and who was at the head of his own one-party state (with that party used for top-down rule, political indoctrination, and that everyone had to belong to if they wanted to avoid suspicion) was not totalitarian.

Totalitarians seek to break down all social institutions and remodel them according to some psychopathic ideology. Like what the Communists did, who invented the modern totalitarian state.

Autocrats generally leave traditional social institutions as they are.

In terms of conduct, totalitarians tend towards genocide, invasion of their neighbours, sponsorship of international terrorism and the desire to cleanse racial or ethic minorities like Jews.

The Shah did none of these things but revolutionary Nationalist, Baathist and Islamist regimes did and they impoverished and destroyed their own societies in the process.
 
Just going back to this:

Turkey used a moderate autocrat to transition the country into a modern nation-state.

Why can't democracy transition the country into a modern nation-state? The nature of being under an autocracy is that the autocrat shapes the country in their image. It's a game of chance what country it turns out to be.
 
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Just going back to this:



Why can't democracy transition the country into a modern nation-state? The nature of being under an autocracy is that the autocrat shapes the country in their image. It's a game of chance what country it turns out to be.

It can. But it's not the only way its happened in history. The question was "what other ways are there?"

Ask a question, get the answer.
 
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More on-topic, here's the rather depressing thoughts of someone in Egypt with a rather first-hand experience of what's going on politically:

In the past two months I have been both a candidate and a campaign manager, and what you see as a campaign manager is very different than what you see as a candidate, especially when you are a campaign manager in Suez. To make a long story short, in the 10 days we were there, this is what went down: We had one of our campaign workers fall victim to a hit and run “accident”, a campaign operative getting arrested by the military police at a polling station for filming the army promoting the Salafi Nour Party (with a big banner carrying the Noor Party slogan being placed on the side of an Army Truck) and his film confiscated of course, our campaign headquarters got attacked with molotov cocktails by thugs sent by a “moderate” islamist centrist party (hint: It’s not ElAdl) , the hotel we were staying in got repeatedly attacked by thugs till 3 am, with the army platoon leader protecting the Hotel informing me that if I don’t resolve the situation, he will “deal violently” with those outside and inside the hotel, the Leader of the 3rd Egyptian Army calling us looking for me, the Chief of Security for Suez doing the same thing, Lawyers and thugs working for a semi-leftist party filed police reports against us claiming we hired them and owed them money when we didn’t, and the other campaign manager finally going to deal with the situation, ends up getting arrested, and the two campaign members that were with him were left outside under the mercy of groups of thugs, and we managed by the grace of god get them all out unharmed and we escape Suez while Trucks filled with guys with guns going around Suez looking for us.

Oh, and we also sent in one of our campaign operatives dressed as a salafi into the Suez central committee for vote counting, where Army personnel assured him that they have helped the Noor Party and told him that they hooked them up with two seats, while winking.

Oh yeah.

In other news, we won a seat there.

………………………….

So, why would the military be “helping” the Salafi Noor Party get votes? Well, mainly because they invented them. It was a match made possible by State-Security, who probably alerted the military of how reliable were the salafis in their previous “cooperation” to scare the living **** out of the population into submission and supporting the regime. Remember the All Saints church attack, the one that happened this New Year? Remember the documents proving that our very own State Security had arranged it to take place to force the Coptic population to support Mubarak? Yeah, it’s kind of like that. Only on a higher level. Ensuring that the Salafis have a big chunk of the parliament (one that is neither logical or feasible considering their numbers in Egypt) achieves two goals: 1) Provide a mechanism for the security apparatus to keep the Muslim Brotherhood in check if they ever thought of using religion as a weapon against SCAF (As far as the salafis are concerned, the MB are secular infidels) and 2) to really frame the choice in our (and the international community’s) heads between a “Islamist country or a military regime”, because, let’s face it, The MB are not scary enough for the general population. But the Salafis? Terrifying ****. You add to that the piece of news that the average Egyptian duty-free buying alcohol limit over night went from 4 bottles to a single bottle, and that they now have a “women only” cue in the Airport, and you have the Upper-class and Upper-middle class – alongside with the west- pissing in their pants and psychologically ready to accept military rule over Islamic one. A fake and a false choice, especially that new parliament will have no power what so ever over anything.

So why bother with the elections? Well, because this is a fight for the nation’s morale. We know that you don’t know this country, that you live in social and cultural ghettos of your own making and that if we are not competing you will end up with a 95% Islamist parliament and you will believe that this is an islamist country and 50% of you will be booking their tickets out of here tomorrow rather than living in Egyptistan. That we too need to go down and see for ourselves how things work, since this is an election without data, real media coverage, and very few people have the experience or the knowledge of the areas that you would need to win an election in a district. Here is a fun fact: about 40% of the people head to the polls not knowing who they will vote for, and are simply there because they are afraid of the 500LE fine they must pay for abstaining to vote; about another 50% go to the polls with a piece of paper that has the names & symbols of the people they will vote for, people that they don’t know, or their history or anything about them. They simply asked their friends and they told them that these are “good people to vote for”, and this is true across the board in all classes, upper and lower, uneducated and educated. And you can’t blame them really, because each district has over 100 candidates fighting over 2 seats and only 4 weeks to campaign. If you are the average new voter, there is no time to meet or evaluate or educate yourself about all of them in order to choose objectively between them. I know people that voted for me simply because I was the only candidate they met. I am not kidding.
 
I supposed if they had a better cadre of officers it might have been done properly.

When the Carnesim Revolution happened here, it was the military that was in charge, but after that it handed power back to the people (tho there were issues with military units loyal to the Communist Party)
 
So what's your recommendation for Egypt?

My recommendation for Egypt is that they immediately adopt a constitution that enforces a respect for the rule of the law, creates an independent secular judiciary, and protects civil liberties, including the freedom of speech and the press, peaceable assembly, voting, and the strict separation of religious and state functions.

But I doubt that most Egyptians have much of an interest in this slate of proposals, so all I can do is hope for the best and fear for the worst. Same as you.
 
Muslim radicals burn books:

Institute d’Egypte, a research center set up by Napoleon Bonaparte during France’s invasion in the late 18th century, caught fire during clashes between protesters and Egypt’s military over the weekend. It was home to a treasure trove of writings, most notably the handwritten 24-volume Description de l’Egypte, which began during the 1798-1801 French occupation.

The compilation, which includes 20 years of observations by more than 150 French scholars and scientists, was one of the most comprehensive descriptions of Egypt’s monuments, its ancient civilization and contemporary life at the time.

The Description of Egypt is likely burned beyond repair. Its home, the two-story historic institute near Tahrir Square, is now in danger of collapsing after the roof caved in.

“The burning of such a rich building means a large part of Egyptian history has ended,” the director of the institute, Mohammed al-Sharbouni, told state television over the weekend. The building was managed by a local non-governmental organization.

http://books.hindustantimes.com/201...writings-burned-at-institute-degypt-in-cairo/
 
Muslim radicals burn books

Your article doesn't support your claim here. The building was a structure next to the Parliament building, where protests have been raging for weeks against the refusal of the SCAF to let go of their grip on power. The fire was started during a clash between military police and protesters, because molotov cocktails were being hurled back and forth.

The fire started on the lower floors of the building, which is on Qasr al-Aini Street in central Cairo, but later reached the higher floors. The firemen, who arrived very late at the site, could not initially control the fire. Eyewitnesses were reported to have seen protestors throwing a Molotov cocktail at stone-throwing soldiers at the Shura Council building, but the projectile missed the intended target and instead landed in the Egyptian Scientific Institute.


These books were not burned by "Muslim radicals" seeking to destroy them, but as a result of collateral damage. And there are a large number of government and non-government efforts to salvage and reconstruct as much as possible.

After burning the Egyptian Scientific Institute on Saturday 17th December 2011, great efforts started to work on saving the collections of the library which has 196.000 items. The National Library of Egypt is leading the efforts that initiated by different organizations and individuals. At this press release we will try to give a spot light on what's happening after burning the Egyptian Scientific Institute.

On the official side; The Ministry of Archeology formed a technical committee to check out the burned building of the Egyptian Scientific Institute. Another 2 committees formed for the same purpose, they were formed by Ministry of Culture, and Civilized Coordination Authority. The final result says that the building needs 2.5 Million Egyptian Pounds ($420.000) for restoration, and this process will take 1 year according to Mohammed Ali Ibrahim the Minister of Archaeology.

On the collections side; from the first moment after burning the collections; the National Library of Egypt started to save the collections as possible as they can. Many of Egyptian volunteers assisted in extracting the books from the fire. Dr. Zein Abdul Hadi, the head of Egyptian National Library participated himself at this process. Many trucks moved the rescued books to the National Library. According to Dr. Zein, "Around 30.000 items were rescued and stored in the National Library”. Cooperative efforts are running now to restore the saved items. American University in Cairo (AUC) and Bibliotheca Alexandrina are participating effectively. Today, 21st December, the National Library announced that same PCs were rescued and the electronic catalog of the library was found and safe.

On Monday 19th December; Sheikh Sultan Al Qassimi, Governor of the Emirate of Sharjah, announce that he will bear the whole cost of the building restoration, and will donate some of his rare acquisitions to the Institute.

William J. Kopycki, the Field Director, Library of Congress, Cairo Office posted important images that show the library stamps of the Egyptian Scientific Institute. It was great initiative that may assist in detecting any of these collections in the old books market.

“7 March Movement” which popular movement formed by Egyptian librarians, launched a campaign entitled “Protect Your Library and Heritage”. The campaign aims at collecting volunteers of librarians to participate in the restoration process, and will be managed with coordination with the National Library. The Movement’s statement that issued on 20th December said “In believe of our role in the Egyptian society, we invite all Egyptian librarians to contribute in saving out historical heritage and join our campaign”

You can even see pictures of the recovery efforts at the link.

EDIT: In case you didn't know, the Sharjah mentioned above is the most conservative Muslim emirate in the UAE.
 
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My recommendation for Egypt is that they immediately adopt a constitution that enforces a respect for the rule of the law, creates an independent secular judiciary, and protects civil liberties, including the freedom of speech and the press, peaceable assembly, voting, and the strict separation of religious and state functions.

But I doubt that most Egyptians have much of an interest in this slate of proposals, so all I can do is hope for the best and fear for the worst. Same as you.

This is the kind of thing I was looking for. So what can be done other than sitting back and complaining?
 
This is the kind of thing I was looking for. So what can be done other than sitting back and complaining?

Get a job with the State Department (Foreign Office for you Brits). If you think of anything else, let me know.
 
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And what can they do (this isn't me be aggressive, I'm just looking for solutions)?

The State Department and Foreign Office have a lot of money and lots of diplomats. That can get you a good deal of influence if used wisely. They can gather intelligence on the various potential political movers, offer support (or refrain from offering support if open support would do more harm than good), offer observers to help prevent voter fraud, report on corruption, fund efforts to educate Egyptians on the benefits of civil liberties, train judges and lawyers, and train the military to respect the rule of law and authority of civil government.

Of course, it's influence, not omnipotence. In the end, if the Egyptians want to burn libraries and form Islamist governments to oppose nascent military dictatorships, even their influence is limited. But it's more than you or I can accomplish sitting in front of our respective computers.

I'm sure there are charities out there that you can support who fund efforts to encourage respect for human rights in Egypt. I don't know what they are off-hand. I presume Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and Transparency International have a presence in Egypt, though I don't know how effective they are. I don't know of any Egypt-specific charities.
 
And what can they do (this isn't me be aggressive, I'm just looking for solutions)?

Well in theoy we could try and send enough election observers that the millitary finds it harder to rig things.
 
Are you suggesting that Mossadegh was deposed by the U.S. because he was a Nazi sympathizer?

While I hesitate to guess at what goes on behind the belligerent mouthpiece of official US foreign policy, it is possible that he means Reza Shah who was deposed in WWII by an Allied-backed coup and replaced with Mohammed Reza Pahlavi rather than the 1953 coup which ousted Mossadegh and expanded the Shah's autocratic rule turning the Majlis into a rubber-stamp.
 
While I hesitate to guess at what goes on behind the belligerent mouthpiece of official US foreign policy, it is possible that he means Reza Shah who was deposed in WWII by an Allied-backed coup and replaced with Mohammed Reza Pahlavi rather than the 1953 coup which ousted Mossadegh and expanded the Shah's autocratic rule turning the Majlis into a rubber-stamp.


Possible, but it doesn't jive with the comment Virus made which prompted the exchange.

Turkey used a moderate autocrat to transition the country into a modern nation-state. Iran was also doing that under the Shah but was overthrown by religious fascists.


If he believes Reza Shah was overthrown by religious fascists his opinions about the Allied war effort are different than I would have suspected.

Of course with Virus it's kinda hard to tell.
 

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