Post-election troubles in Ukraine

Nikk said:
I heard about those claims some time ago.


Those photos really don't look like the same guy though. Could there be some mistake.

Hard to say, since they´re from completely different angles.

There´s a before-and-after shot in our local newspaper, though only in black-and-white. The most noticeable differences are that before whatever happened to him, he had

- a healthy skin color (as far as can be determined from B&W); the photo above may be about right
- darker hair, though maybe not black as the photo above
- noticeable, but by far nor as pronounced creases around the eyes
- no scarring whatsoever in the face
- a noticeably smaller nose.

So the change certainly is shocking, even more so since nobody seems to be able to determine just what happened to him.
 
Latest news is that the Supreme Court has blocked the publication of the election results:

See http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4042979.stm

...snip...

Court spokeswoman Liana Shlyaposhnikova told AFP news agency: "Until we have finished examining the appeal, the results of the election cannot be published.

"Until we have reached a decision, the election result cannot be valid."

...snip...
 
Nikk said:
I heard about those claims some time ago.


Those photos really don't look like the same guy though. Could there be some mistake.

Doubtful the BBC should know what they are doing.

Another pic though

041124_yushchenko_200.jpg
 
According to the T-Online internet news service (http://onnachrichten.t-online.de/c/28/74/62/2874620.html in German only, sorry), Ukrainian police forces used tear gas on protesters in Chernigov as "an opposition MP demanded entry to a city council meeting".

Also they report that 50,000 counter-protesters loyal to Yushchenko have gathered in Kiev and are marching towards the opposition supporters´ gathering. There are some unspecific reports about "violence between protesters" in Kiev.

Some members of the electoral commission who have declared Yanukovych the winner seem to have changed their minds about it. Support for this decision is now at 9 out of 15 members.

A few hours ago, another article (which I cannot find any more) said that part of the government bureaucracy are "defecting" from Yanukovych. It mentioned the central bank (which Yushchenko headed for several years) and the domestic intelligence service. Also, last night German TV reported that, at least in one city, police forces have declared themselves loyal to Yushchenko.
 
Chaos said:
Also they report that 50,000 counter-protesters loyal to Yushchenko have gathered in Kiev and are marching towards the opposition supporters´ gathering. There are some unspecific reports about "violence between protesters" in Kiev.

the BBC ic puting the figure at over 10,000 so 50,000 is probably a little high

Some members of the electoral commission who have declared Yanukovych the winner seem to have changed their minds about it. Support for this decision is now at 9 out of 15 members.

BBC is going for 10-5

A few hours ago, another article (which I cannot find any more) said that part of the government bureaucracy are "defecting" from Yanukovych. It mentioned the central bank (which Yushchenko headed for several years) and the domestic intelligence service. Also, last night German TV reported that, at least in one city, police forces have declared themselves loyal to Yushchenko. [/B]

There a lot of rumors flying around. Sate TV apears to have gone over to Yushchenko.
 
geni said:
Doubtful the BBC should know what they are doing.

Another pic though

041124_yushchenko_200.jpg

Thanks, I'm sure you are right that these two pictures are the same guy. I knew the difference was supposed to be enormous.


It really looks in Ukraine at the moment as if loyalty to the ancien regime is crumbling by the hour. Lets hope it doesn't turn violent.
 
A fascinating article about how the US undermines and controls 'democracy' in other countries. If you ignore the undercurrent given by Ian Traynor that it it a genuine attempt to bring democracy to benighted countries, it is a chilling expose.


quote:
US campaign behind the turmoil in Kiev

Ian Traynor
Friday November 26, 2004

The Guardian
With their websites and stickers, their pranks and slogans aimed at banishing widespread fear of a corrupt regime, the democracy guerrillas of the Ukrainian Pora youth movement have already notched up a famous victory - whatever the outcome of the dangerous stand-off in Kiev.

Ukraine, traditionally passive in its politics, has been mobilised by the young democracy activists and will never be the same again.

But while the gains of the orange-bedecked "chestnut revolution" are Ukraine's, the campaign is an American creation, a sophisticated and brilliantly conceived exercise in western branding and mass marketing that, in four countries in four years, has been used to try to salvage rigged elections and topple unsavoury regimes.

Funded and organised by the US government, deploying US consultancies, pollsters, diplomats, the two big American parties and US non-government organisations, the campaign was first used in Europe in Belgrade in 2000 to beat Slobodan Milosevic at the ballot box.

Richard Miles, the US ambassador in Belgrade, played a key role. And by last year, as US ambassador in Tbilisi, he repeated the trick in Georgia, coaching Mikhail Saakashvili in how to bring down Eduard Shevardnadze.

Ten months after the success in Belgrade, the US ambassador in Minsk, Michael Kozak, a veteran of similar operations in central America, notably in Nicaragua, organised a near identical campaign to try to defeat the Belarus hardman, Alexander Lukashenko.

That one failed. "There will be no Kostunica in Belarus," the Belarus president declared, referring to the victory in Belgrade.

But experience gained in Serbia, Georgia and Belarus has been invaluable in plotting to beat the regime of Leonid Kuchma in Kiev.

The operation - engineering democracy through the ballot box and civil disobedience - is now so slick that the methods have matured into a template for winning other people's elections.

In the centre of Belgrade, there is a dingy office staffed by computer-literate youngsters who call themselves the Centre for Non-violent Resistance. If you want to know how to beat a regime that controls the mass media, the judges, the courts, the security apparatus and the voting stations, the young Belgrade activists are for hire.

They emerged from the anti-Milosevic student movement, Otpor, meaning resistance. The catchy, single-word branding is important. In Georgia last year, the parallel student movement was Khmara. In Belarus, it was Zubr. In Ukraine, it is Pora, meaning high time. Otpor also had a potent, simple slogan that appeared everywhere in Serbia in 2000 - the two words "gotov je", meaning "he's finished", a reference to Milosevic. A logo of a black-and-white clenched fist completed the masterful marketing.

In Ukraine, the equivalent is a ticking clock, also signalling that the Kuchma regime's days are numbered.

Stickers, spray paint and websites are the young activists' weapons. Irony and street comedy mocking the regime have been hugely successful in puncturing public fear and enraging the powerful.

Last year, before becoming president in Georgia, the US-educated Mr Saakashvili travelled from Tbilisi to Belgrade to be coached in the techniques of mass defiance. In Belarus, the US embassy organised the dispatch of young opposition leaders to the Baltic, where they met up with Serbs travelling from Belgrade. In Serbia's case, given the hostile environment in Belgrade, the Americans organised the overthrow from neighbouring Hungary - Budapest and Szeged.

In recent weeks, several Serbs travelled to the Ukraine. Indeed, one of the leaders from Belgrade, Aleksandar Maric, was turned away at the border.

The Democratic party's National Democratic Institute, the Republican party's International Republican Institute, the US state department and USAid are the main agencies involved in these grassroots campaigns as well as the Freedom House NGO and billionaire George Soros's open society institute.

US pollsters and professional consultants are hired to organise focus groups and use psephological data to plot strategy.

The usually fractious oppositions have to be united behind a single candidate if there is to be any chance of unseating the regime. That leader is selected on pragmatic and objective grounds, even if he or she is anti-American.

In Serbia, US pollsters Penn, Schoen and Berland Associates discovered that the assassinated pro-western opposition leader, Zoran Djindjic, was reviled at home and had no chance of beating Milosevic fairly in an election. He was persuaded to take a back seat to the anti-western Vojislav Kostunica, who is now Serbian prime minister.

In Belarus, US officials ordered opposition parties to unite behind the dour, elderly trade unionist, Vladimir Goncharik, because he appealed to much of the Lukashenko constituency.

Officially, the US government spent $41m (£21.7m) organising and funding the year-long operation to get rid of Milosevic from October 1999. In Ukraine, the figure is said to be around $14m.

Apart from the student movement and the united opposition, the other key element in the democracy template is what is known as the "parallel vote tabulation", a counter to the election-rigging tricks beloved of disreputable regimes.

There are professional outside election monitors from bodies such as the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe, but the Ukrainian poll, like its predecessors, also featured thousands of local election monitors trained and paid by western groups.

Freedom House and the Democratic party's NDI helped fund and organise the "largest civil regional election monitoring effort" in Ukraine, involving more than 1,000 trained observers. They also organised exit polls. On Sunday night those polls gave Mr Yushchenko an 11-point lead and set the agenda for much of what has followed.

The exit polls are seen as critical because they seize the initiative in the propaganda battle with the regime, invariably appearing first, receiving wide media coverage and putting the onus on the authorities to respond.

The final stage in the US template concerns how to react when the incumbent tries to steal a lost election.

In Belarus, President Lukashenko won, so the response was minimal. In Belgrade, Tbilisi, and now Kiev, where the authorities initially tried to cling to power, the advice was to stay cool but determined and to organise mass displays of civil disobedience, which must remain peaceful but risk provoking the regime into violent suppression.

If the events in Kiev vindicate the US in its strategies for helping other people win elections and take power from anti-democratic regimes, it is certain to try to repeat the exercise elsewhere in the post-Soviet world.

The places to watch are Moldova and the authoritarian countries of central Asia.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1360080,00.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a big priority. I had journalist friend who came under pressure during his time in Belgrade to hype it up for the New York Times. The Serbian operation has spawned a bunch of consultants now employed by the U.S. all over the imperial frontline.
There's even some in Iraq. Otpor and b92 - both rather oligarchic in their actions these days, now that they're not being hounded daily - are at the vanguard of the marketing muscle.

On this note, once the hyperbolic headlines have vanished, it's back to business as usual, unless you're lucky enough to be flown around by U.S. government agencies. Interesting to note that Otpor people are generally rather pained by their western media coverage, except for the slimy lawyers who rode its waves to positions of subservience in the post-Milosevic "democratic" dictatorship. Along the way, all the catchy slogans were dropped, while the footsoldiers in the baton line were left to deal with the reality of the situation - they still inhabit an impoverished pariah state and their erstwhile leaders have abandoned everything they thought they were fighting for.
 
demon you haven't a clue about what you are talking about here. In order to accept what the article is saying you have to ignore all the evidence of election fraud. Which of course you are more than willing to do when USA is to be blamed.
 
"demon you haven't a clue about what you are talking about here. In order to accept what the article is saying you have to ignore all the evidence of election fraud. Which of course you are more than willing to do when USA is to be blamed."

What?:confused:
 
demon said:
"demon you haven't a clue about what you are talking about here. In order to accept what the article is saying you have to ignore all the evidence of election fraud. Which of course you are more than willing to do when USA is to be blamed."

What?:confused:

What? You find some crazy article that implicates US in some crazy conspiracy and you're go right for it hook, line and sinker.
 
So I have to go to Ukraine now to comment upon it?
When were you there?
 
demon said:
So I have to go to Ukraine now to comment upon it?
When were you there?

Well you are so sure the article is true and that Ukraine was so different before the US got involved I thought you visited it.

A decade ago, I still know some people there I talk with. Let me just tell you that it did not change that much politically, this is all the result of a close election.

Same thing happened in USA; when things are that close people get far more passionate.
 
Grammatron said:
What? You find some crazy article that implicates US in some crazy conspiracy and you're go right for it hook, line and sinker.




Er Grammatron what is your problem here?

The article simply claims that the US has used legal and legitimate methods to unite and energise a democratic opposition. I have heard these claims before and I suspect the role of the US may be overhyped. Such methods could achieve little unless there was popular support for change.

Nevertheless whether they achieved a lot, a little or nothing I don't see any reason to be ashamed of trying to help a nascent democratic opposition.
 
demon said:
A fascinating article about how the US undermines and controls 'democracy' in other countries. If you ignore the undercurrent given by Ian Traynor that it it a genuine attempt to bring democracy to benighted countries, it is a chilling expose.



So? Sounds like politics to me.
 
Nikk said:
Er Grammatron what is your problem here?

The article simply claims that the US has used legal and legitimate methods to unite and energise a democratic opposition. I have heard these claims before and I suspect the role of the US may be overhyped. Such methods could achieve little unless there was popular support for change.

Nevertheless whether they achieved a lot, a little or nothing I don't see any reason to be ashamed of trying to help a nascent democratic opposition.

My problem is with demon when he starts off a post with: A fascinating article about how the US undermines and controls 'democracy' in other countries.

First of all, the examples in the article are all about attempting to remove horrible, horrible (I really can't say that enough) dictator like leaders through election.

Each time those leaders were elected, the elections always raised red flags with International observers. Especially the Belarus "president" Lukashenko. That guy f***ed with the constitution so many times that he should be considered a dictator at this point.

Frankly, I wouldn't trust either of these candidates further than I could throw them. But that's not the issue here and since I don't reside in Ukraine any longer it's not my call who the leader there will be. What I do have a problem here is whe demon finds some article that lays a blame on USA his always posts this as some "fascinating" look into how USA tries to run the world.
 
Actually, one of the reasons I posted that article was to draw attention to the problem of "grass roots organizations", which should be organizations supporting independent thought and agenda becoming influenced into a certain preferential direction by some other countries spin doctors which is exactly the cunning of the whole thing.
I could not post the picture with this article but it showed an attractive young girl in a headband, a poster with a clenched fist and the slogan "resistance". It appeared the genuine article. Sources of funding are always problematic but without any at all except donations from supporters, a grassroots organisation has a lot of trouble getting off the ground, I admit that. Just ask the JREF.
It cost the US $14m which they could have been better spent looking after Americans even though this is chickenfeed to the US government. And it will mean that their chosen man/asset will be beholden to them, dependent on US gold.


As far as I can see, it is after a kind of expansion of Nato Eastwards. I believe the US controlling the Ukraine would also be problematic for the Russian Black Sea fleet and therefore a strategic asset. Furthermore it would be one more state firmly under the grip of neoliberalism.
Let`s not forget control of oil:
http://www.bisnis.doc.gov/bisnis/bisdoc/011026OilOpp.htm
http://energy.cr.usgs.gov/energy/stats_ctry/sumtbls/ukrain.pdf

I think the point of this activity by the U.S. is to set an example for the ex-Russian republics. If they all were to move towards more influence from Moscow and less influence from the West, this would be of major geo-political significance, especially countries like Georgia, and the -stans which surround the Caspian Sea and are required to carry the oil and gas pipelines. Its the old fear of the domino effect certainly playing a part in this.

I think it's true that the US is seen in a more positive light in Eastern Europe because the US helped in their resistance to the Soviet empire. To suggest that this was done out of altruism however, is a little naive. The reasons should be obvious and the policies continue for the same reasons these days.
In the same way you'll find that opinions of the Soviet Union were more positive in the US' backyard..Cuba, El Salvador, Nicaragua etc because the USSR was seen as the only hope these people had of resisting the US' murderous policies. Again the reasons should be obvious and if you want a good example of the longer term effects of US "yearning for democracy" take a look at the state of some of these countries now.

We will have to be more vigilant about 'grassroots' organisations and where their money is coming from

Grammatron:
"First of all, the examples in the article are all about attempting to remove horrible, horrible (I really can't say that enough) dictator like leaders through election...
...What I do have a problem here is whe demon finds some article that lays a blame on USA his always posts this as some "fascinating" look into how USA tries to run the world."

I`m not for preventing liberation from authoritarian rule. The issue, as in the 20th century, is how to avoid falling into the clutches of another predatory superpower while securing these valuable freedoms.

You sound exactly like a 20s Bolshevik, "courage comrades, the USSR will liberate you". Haven't we learned anything from the 20th century?

Here`s another two articles for you:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1360296,00.html
and this one is well worth reading too: crhttp://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/News/Trifkovic04/NewsST112404.html

I`m sure you`ll be on hand to tell me how crazy they are.
 
Yushchenko wants Ukraine to join EU and EU wants resolution here. Therefore, using your wonderful logic, demon, we can conclude that EU is trying to rig the election in Ukraine to someone more favourable to them. Sounds plausable to you?
 
demon said:
A fascinating article about how the US undermines and controls 'democracy' in other countries. If you ignore the undercurrent given by Ian Traynor that it it a genuine attempt to bring democracy to benighted countries, it is a chilling expose.


quote:
US campaign behind the turmoil in Kiev

Ian Traynor
Friday November 26, 2004

The Guardian
With their websites and stickers, their pranks and slogans aimed at banishing widespread fear of a corrupt regime, the democracy guerrillas of the Ukrainian Pora youth movement have already notched up a famous victory - whatever the outcome of the dangerous stand-off in Kiev.

Ukraine, traditionally passive in its politics, has been mobilised by the young democracy activists and will never be the same again.

But while the gains of the orange-bedecked "chestnut revolution" are Ukraine's, the campaign is an American creation, a sophisticated and brilliantly conceived exercise in western branding and mass marketing that, in four countries in four years, has been used to try to salvage rigged elections and topple unsavoury regimes.

Funded and organised by the US government, deploying US consultancies, pollsters, diplomats, the two big American parties and US non-government organisations, the campaign was first used in Europe in Belgrade in 2000 to beat Slobodan Milosevic at the ballot box.

Richard Miles, the US ambassador in Belgrade, played a key role. And by last year, as US ambassador in Tbilisi, he repeated the trick in Georgia, coaching Mikhail Saakashvili in how to bring down Eduard Shevardnadze.

Ten months after the success in Belgrade, the US ambassador in Minsk, Michael Kozak, a veteran of similar operations in central America, notably in Nicaragua, organised a near identical campaign to try to defeat the Belarus hardman, Alexander Lukashenko.

That one failed. "There will be no Kostunica in Belarus," the Belarus president declared, referring to the victory in Belgrade.

But experience gained in Serbia, Georgia and Belarus has been invaluable in plotting to beat the regime of Leonid Kuchma in Kiev.

The operation - engineering democracy through the ballot box and civil disobedience - is now so slick that the methods have matured into a template for winning other people's elections.

In the centre of Belgrade, there is a dingy office staffed by computer-literate youngsters who call themselves the Centre for Non-violent Resistance. If you want to know how to beat a regime that controls the mass media, the judges, the courts, the security apparatus and the voting stations, the young Belgrade activists are for hire.

They emerged from the anti-Milosevic student movement, Otpor, meaning resistance. The catchy, single-word branding is important. In Georgia last year, the parallel student movement was Khmara. In Belarus, it was Zubr. In Ukraine, it is Pora, meaning high time. Otpor also had a potent, simple slogan that appeared everywhere in Serbia in 2000 - the two words "gotov je", meaning "he's finished", a reference to Milosevic. A logo of a black-and-white clenched fist completed the masterful marketing.

In Ukraine, the equivalent is a ticking clock, also signalling that the Kuchma regime's days are numbered.

Stickers, spray paint and websites are the young activists' weapons. Irony and street comedy mocking the regime have been hugely successful in puncturing public fear and enraging the powerful.

Last year, before becoming president in Georgia, the US-educated Mr Saakashvili travelled from Tbilisi to Belgrade to be coached in the techniques of mass defiance. In Belarus, the US embassy organised the dispatch of young opposition leaders to the Baltic, where they met up with Serbs travelling from Belgrade. In Serbia's case, given the hostile environment in Belgrade, the Americans organised the overthrow from neighbouring Hungary - Budapest and Szeged.

In recent weeks, several Serbs travelled to the Ukraine. Indeed, one of the leaders from Belgrade, Aleksandar Maric, was turned away at the border.

The Democratic party's National Democratic Institute, the Republican party's International Republican Institute, the US state department and USAid are the main agencies involved in these grassroots campaigns as well as the Freedom House NGO and billionaire George Soros's open society institute.

US pollsters and professional consultants are hired to organise focus groups and use psephological data to plot strategy.

The usually fractious oppositions have to be united behind a single candidate if there is to be any chance of unseating the regime. That leader is selected on pragmatic and objective grounds, even if he or she is anti-American.

In Serbia, US pollsters Penn, Schoen and Berland Associates discovered that the assassinated pro-western opposition leader, Zoran Djindjic, was reviled at home and had no chance of beating Milosevic fairly in an election. He was persuaded to take a back seat to the anti-western Vojislav Kostunica, who is now Serbian prime minister.

In Belarus, US officials ordered opposition parties to unite behind the dour, elderly trade unionist, Vladimir Goncharik, because he appealed to much of the Lukashenko constituency.

Officially, the US government spent $41m (£21.7m) organising and funding the year-long operation to get rid of Milosevic from October 1999. In Ukraine, the figure is said to be around $14m.

Apart from the student movement and the united opposition, the other key element in the democracy template is what is known as the "parallel vote tabulation", a counter to the election-rigging tricks beloved of disreputable regimes.

There are professional outside election monitors from bodies such as the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe, but the Ukrainian poll, like its predecessors, also featured thousands of local election monitors trained and paid by western groups.

Freedom House and the Democratic party's NDI helped fund and organise the "largest civil regional election monitoring effort" in Ukraine, involving more than 1,000 trained observers. They also organised exit polls. On Sunday night those polls gave Mr Yushchenko an 11-point lead and set the agenda for much of what has followed.

The exit polls are seen as critical because they seize the initiative in the propaganda battle with the regime, invariably appearing first, receiving wide media coverage and putting the onus on the authorities to respond.

The final stage in the US template concerns how to react when the incumbent tries to steal a lost election.

In Belarus, President Lukashenko won, so the response was minimal. In Belgrade, Tbilisi, and now Kiev, where the authorities initially tried to cling to power, the advice was to stay cool but determined and to organise mass displays of civil disobedience, which must remain peaceful but risk provoking the regime into violent suppression.

If the events in Kiev vindicate the US in its strategies for helping other people win elections and take power from anti-democratic regimes, it is certain to try to repeat the exercise elsewhere in the post-Soviet world.

The places to watch are Moldova and the authoritarian countries of central Asia.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1360080,00.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a big priority. I had journalist friend who came under pressure during his time in Belgrade to hype it up for the New York Times. The Serbian operation has spawned a bunch of consultants now employed by the U.S. all over the imperial frontline.
There's even some in Iraq. Otpor and b92 - both rather oligarchic in their actions these days, now that they're not being hounded daily - are at the vanguard of the marketing muscle.

On this note, once the hyperbolic headlines have vanished, it's back to business as usual, unless you're lucky enough to be flown around by U.S. government agencies. Interesting to note that Otpor people are generally rather pained by their western media coverage, except for the slimy lawyers who rode its waves to positions of subservience in the post-Milosevic "democratic" dictatorship. Along the way, all the catchy slogans were dropped, while the footsoldiers in the baton line were left to deal with the reality of the situation - they still inhabit an impoverished pariah state and their erstwhile leaders have abandoned everything they thought they were fighting for.
So US is helping organisations that remove dictators using mostly democratic and nonviolent means? How horrible - they must be stopped. Where do I sign up?
 

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