Possible Evidence For Religious Anecdotage

[Finnegan]

Fairly recently I rejected my hereditary Christian faith, and thus I've spent the intervening time being repeatedly assaulted by evangelics. Possibly surprisingly, however, they hadn't until recently begun to argue from history. The 'divine' acts that they claim to have most evidence for seem to be:

1. The Crossing Of The Red Sea - Apparently there is evidence of human and horse bones, as well as chariot parts, in the Red Sea that are dated back to the same period as the biblical account of the Israelites fleeing from Egypt.

2. The Destruction Of Sodom And Gomorrah - Ruins of cities in the the land near the Dead Sea have apparently been found covered with ash and millions of sulphur balls.

3. The Flood - A whole smorgasbord of claims, running from the unusual worldwide dissemination of stories regarding floods, birds and boat survivors to apparent evidence of fossil graveyards and, slightly more amusingly, 'mammoths in deep freeze'.

Sixth-form history sadly extends only from 1914 to 1945. Is anyone well-versed as to these claims? Are they genuinely reliable or merely a mix of historical shavings and theological sophistry?

The most obvious thing to say is that these events show God to be a genocidal maniac of spectacular proportions.

Thanks,

Finnegan

 

[Meadmaker]

1. The Crossing Of The Red Sea - Apparently there is evidence of human and horse bones, as well as chariot parts, in the Red Sea that are dated back to the same period as the biblical account of the Israelites fleeing from Egypt.

Oh, good. They've accepted the possibility of dating objects. That's a step forward.

I've never heard this, but the Red Sea has been crossed lots and lots of times by humans, horses, and chariots, from a long way back. It would seem fairly likely that some people and some horses drowned in the process.

2. The Destruction Of Sodom And Gomorrah - Ruins of cities in the the land near the Dead Sea have apparently been found covered with ash and millions of sulphur balls.

There are ruined cities in the vicinity of th Dead Sea. Some were destroyed by fire. However, no "millions of sulphur balls".

3. The Flood - A whole smorgasbord of claims, running from the unusual worldwide dissemination of stories regarding floods, birds and boat survivors to apparent evidence of fossil graveyards and, slightly more amusingly, 'mammoths in deep freeze'.

Well, they did recently find Noah's Ark. Again.

I think the worldwide dissemination of stories regarding floods might just be because people tend to live along rivers and seashores.

Are they genuinely reliable or merely a mix of historical shavings and theological sophistry?

The latter.

 

[Finnegan]

Cheers,

This may be hideously old ground that I'm dragging you back to, but my historical knowledge is depressingly thin and if one wavers mid-debate then an evangelical is liable to roar, "Hah, PROOF".



Ah, the 'sulfur balls' claim is from Ron Wyatt, who also claimed to find the original stones of the ten commandments and the blood of Jesus. My critical faculties must be out of batteries.

 

[This Guy]

Possible, but not likely

For the Chariot parts, you can go to the source. Just don't pay him too much attention, I don't think he deserves it.

http://www.arkdiscovery.com/red_sea_crossing.htm

Problem with the Ron White fella is he's made a lot of claims, but to my knowledge, though he even claimed at one time to have retrieved part, or all of a wheel, no one has ever seen it but him (unless there has been an update since I last looked into this a couple years ago).

(ETA:http://atheism.about.com/b/2004/01/25/pharaohs-chariots-found-in-red-sea.htm see this also for the chariots)
Sodom and Gomorrah.. OK, so there is the remains of an ancient city destroyed by a volcano? So?

The flood...jeez. The flood is only disputed by geology, archeology, Palaeontology(that spelled right? The folks that dig up bones and stuff), and you can probably add math and physics.

ETA3 Talk Origins on the Flood - http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

 

[shadron]

For one, wooden chariot parts that old, exposed to water and air, would have never survived 500 years, let alone 3000. Iron existing from that time in a humid environment is nearly as unlikely. Bronze, copper and brass might hold up if there's not too much salt present. If there are artifacts, my guess is that they were created within living human memory (i.e., last year) and were just marvelously dug up just in time for the tourist season.

There are literally hundreds of period sites dotting the entire Middle East. Many were destroyed by earthquakes, most all by fires, and by sacking, to name only the three most commonly occurring fates. Many suffered all the above serially and repeatedly. The location of the city of Ilium (Troy) in southwest Turkey was not one but nine cities, built one atop the previous over 2500 years time. Until Schliemann opened it, in the late 1800s, it was just a hill ("tel") indistinguishable from many others in the region (quite a few of which were also cities at one time or another).

Flood - gees, when didn't it? The Nile flooded every spring, going far out of its banks - that flooding was known as the "gift of the Nile", because it guaranteed the richness of the soil perennially, even in the desert. The Tigris and Euphrates were sluggards in the flooding department, and the Caspain Sea, into which they drain, periodically raised up and flooded vast extents of the drainage basin. All rivers flood at some time or other. You want to hear about flood, read about this:

Evidence of salt beds and shallow lagoon fossils found in core samples (Deep Sea Drilling Project [DSDP] by the Glomar Challenger in 1970) show that pockets of the Mediterranean had evaporated during the last glacial period. The Straights of Gibraltar formed a narrow escarpment which blocked water from the Atlantic from entering the Mediterranean basin.

"The researchers [William Ryan and Walter Pitman - both geology professors at Columbia University] were reluctantly, but excitedly, driven to the conclusion that the Mediterranean Sea had dried up and refilled a dozen times in a million years. Since the Mediterranean basin is as much as 16,000 feet deep, the dry sea floor must have been an incredible hot desert for long periods of time. The lowest place on earth nowadays is the Dead Sea which is only 1300 feet below sea level Further studies confirmed that deep gorges in solid rock (now filled with ocean sediments and then river muds) lay under the Nile River and the Rhone River, suggesting that these rivers were once great torrents steeply dropping water into the empty Mediterranean basin. (However, other filled in gorges are also found around the world and are not unique to the Mediterranean). Best of all, the researchers imagined a prehistoric waterfall at the Straits of Gibraltar bringing in Atlantic ocean water with the volume of a hundred Victoria Falls or a thousand Niagaras at intervals lasting a hundred years or more."
- Lambert Dolphin , "The Great Mediterranean Desert"

(http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/science/flood.html)

Of course, some creationists like to use this for their flood, but to do so they have to abandon new earth aging. The latest such flooding episode occurred about 7750 years ago. People were probably there to see it, and perhaps to participate when it outran them.

 

[shadron]

(dup - server hiccup)

 

[This Guy]

Tired of ETAs, and this is really not a direct answer to your questions.

One thing to consider about the bible is "is it really the inspired word of an all powerful God?"

If it is, there should be certain expectations met by it. Like, no contradictions. No errors. All predictions should be fulfilled.

Unfortunately for the bible, it fails on all accounts. Yes, there is a bit of history in the bible. Should be, it was started what, about 300 BC or so? I don't know, but it was long ago, so there should be a lot of history in it. But does it pass the test of being inspired by an all powerful God? Not in my opinion.

Here's one link that will show you about as many problems as you have time to read - http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/index.html I think McKinsey nit picks a bit, but to make his point, I guess it's to be expected. And actually, these newsletters were made up sometime ago (between Jan 1983 to Dec 1998) but the information is still just as valid today as it was when written.

There's more stuff out there if you look. Google is your friend

Generally I find the best weapon to use against the bible, is the bible. It's it's own worse enemy.

 

[Zygar]

Come on. If you're going to claim stuff like this, give us some references.

 

[This Guy]

Come on. If you're going to claim stuff like this, give us some references.

I gave you one, if your talking to me.

That should last you awhile.

If you finish that one, look for yourself. If your a believer you need to confirm your beliefs, or discard them, if they are misplaced. That's your job, not mine.

I will help if you have specific questions though.

 

[Radrook]

....God [is] a genocidal maniac of spectacular proportions.

So you are a self-proclaimed authority on the Bible?

None of the things you mention, except perhaps the flood which strove to cleanse mankind of demonic genetic contamination, were based on genes. Would your effort to defend mankind from genetic contamination by aliens categorize you as a genocidal maniac?
Pharoah's army met a military defeat. Are all military defeats Genocide? The Caanannites were driven from the land not based on genes but based on their behavior. Sodom and Gomorah were also destroyed based on behavior of the people there and not on genes.

Before making such statements which you obviously expect the ignorant here to accept without any qualms as to your authority or your motives for saying them, I suggest that you reconsider how these unsubstantiated, mindless, statements make their author appear to be.

BTW

Tagging that preferred conclusion as obvious casts great doubt on your reading comprehension ability as well as on the quality and true nature of your recently-rejected beliefs.


Romans 10:2
For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

 

[JoeEllison]

It is nice to see Radrook, just for the novel approach he takes towards defending his chosen mythology. You see, the flood story isn't just a fairy tale, it is the story of how Jehovah the all-powerful created a demon mutation plague or something, and then instead of curing it, he murdered everyone except a few, who then started inbreeding amongst themselves to create today's Christian.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

..Ah, the 'sulfur balls' claim is from Ron Wyatt, who also claimed to find the original stones of the ten commandments and the blood of Jesus. ....

Goodness, that's lying for Jesus in the extreme. Does he also say the secular world is covering all this evidence up?

Kind of along the lines of Satan putting the dino fossils out there to trick the faithful.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

For one, wooden chariot parts that old, exposed to water and air, would have never survived 500 years, let alone 3000...

Ahhh...in deep water where there is no bacterial action organic material can remain intact. There have been 2,500 year old seed pods found in one location. I'll look for the link.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Didn't find the 2,500 yr old seed pods yet but I found a 4,000 year old one.

God carved on gourd points to cradle of Peruvian culture.

Archaeologists have found the oldest image yet of an Andean religious icon.

The 4,000-year-old carving of the Staff god - a fanged creature with splayed feet, holding a snake and a staff - is on a bowl made from a seed pod.

Too bad it had to be about a god belief but oh well.

Check out the next story though.

Oldest chimp tools found in West Africa

SUMMARY: Apes could have passed down skills for thousands of years.

CONTEXT: ...rainforest, archaeologists have found ancient chimpanzee stone tools thousands of years older than the previous oldest finds in the same area. The discovery suggests that chimps may have passed cultural information down the...

Sorry for the side track, these were stone tools but I thought the story was fascinating and just had to share.

 

[Zygar]

I gave you one, if your talking to me.

That should last you awhile.

If you finish that one, look for yourself. If your a believer you need to confirm your beliefs, or discard them, if they are misplaced. That's your job, not mine.

I will help if you have specific questions though.

Sorry, no. I was responding to the OP. I'm not looking for any new gods now that I've squared away that Dawkins deal.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Stone Age Wood

including three 400,000-year-old wooden spears.

Wow, just wow.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Snopes addresses the chariot wheels in the Dead Sea myth. Status: undetermined.

I find no scientific web sites in the first 5 Google search pages with this discovery and there is at least one fake news site trying to masquerade as the Discover Magazine or something that has a story. This is a classic sign of a totally fake story.

The supposed find is reported in a book for sale on Amazon. This is just totally suspect as a factual story.

Maybe someone can search through the archeology science publication search sites and see if anything was actually discovered.

 

[m_huber]

For the first claim, you pretty much just need to take a look at the depth of the Red Sea to see that the likelihood of 1) anyone crossing this sea or 2) anyone recovering artifacts from this sea are extremely unlikely. In fact, it is wide enough at most points that an attempt to cross would take days to complete. As an answer to this, many Bible scholars claim that it was the Reed Sea, which is now dry. There are other candidates, as well, but all of them have the same commonality of being much easier to cross than the actual Red Sea. Thus, even if it were found to be true that someone at some point crossed one of these bodies, it would not be proof of any miraculous event.

Claim 2 deals with Sodom and Gomorra. There is actually a fairly comprehensive program on the History Channel about the archaeological evidence for some city that is a candidate for this city. The city did burn, but it has clear signs of habitation afterwards. As already noted, however, there are many cities that have burned in time. This is not good evidence of a miracle.

Claim 3 deals with floods. Floods are extremely common in human experience. I have spent most of this weekend discussing the flooding of New Orleans with my colleagues. As a geologist who was raised as a Young Earth Creationist, I can assure you that my search (and the search of most of the early geologists) for evidence of a global flood has come up with nothing. If a global flood did not happen, and local floods are common, then a story about a flood is not evidence of a miracle. (Also, the "Ark" that was discovered is actually slate, a metamorphic rock. It just happens to look like wood in the place where they were looking.)

The Bible, especially the Torah, contains stories that were interpreted with the knowledge that people had 4000 years ago. One possible explanation for the story of Lot's wife turning into a pillar of salt, for example, is that it was an attempt to explain why the Dead Sea was so salty. The Bible may well be a good recording of history in terms of the events which it says happened, but we can say the same of the Iliad. Just because a city was destroyed, a group of people crossed a bog, or a flood happened, doesn't mean that God exists. That is a total non-sequitur.

I would note while I am posting that there are many legends surrounding natural phenomena. For instance, the legends of the Native Americans around Oregon have stories about two Gods fighting that seem to match the geological history of the formation of Crater Lake. Hawaiian legends depend on volcanoes and the ocean; plains Indians' legends depend on bison. At its roots, religion is a story about man interacting with nature. As such, each religion contains strong elements of the natural world from the place where the religion started. Joseph Campbell has some great literature about this.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Same thing on the sulfur balls, only a bunch of religious blogs, forums, and fake science sites reporting the stuff. Someone put it in the Wiki entry on S&G but the source is this fake archeology web site, oh wait, it's Mr Wyatt:

Ron Wyatt Archaeological Research

And look again here is the Discovery Times fake news site with the same story again.

Gees these religious pushers are liars. It's one thing to find actual evidence science cannot explain or that does support some Bible story. Scientists are not out to prove there is no god, science just follows the evidence and looks for an explanation.

If there were chariot parts and bones on the Red Sea floor or sulfur balls around a city that might be the same Sodom and Gomorrah as in the Biblical account, that would be interesting discoveries scientists would be very interested in.

This Ron Wyatt site is one of those money making scams with absurd claims up the ying yang.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

There is no evidence of a world wide flood, period. That has been ruled out. There have been many very big floods including glaciers retreating allowing huge basins of water to be released. The Grand Coulees here in WA are the result of a massive glacial lake that repeatedly filled and drained over thousands of years as the ice sheets retreated. And melting glaciers of the last ice age would have flooded many huge coastal areas including filling the Black Sea in SE Europe. There were humans alive that would have witnessed some of these events and certainly would be expected to have passed the stories down. No Noah's Ark though, that little embellishment was added to the story along the way.

Welcome to the forum, Finnegan. Anything else we can help you with in this area of desperate attempts to find evidence that Bible stories are not myths?