Possible Earliest Artifact Identifying Jesus?

Soubrette said:

Do Jewish people believe that Jesus was the son of God?

Ha! Good catch!

I knew a guy once who explained to me that when he said he was Jewish - it was in reference to his race and not his religion. On the issue of religion, he said he was Christian.

Maybe that's the case here - or maybe there is just something not quite right with that story?
-Ed
 
Mossy said:


Ha! Good catch!

I knew a guy once who explained to me that when he said he was Jewish - it was in reference to his race and not his religion. On the issue of religion, he said he was Christian.

Maybe that's the case here - or maybe there is just something not quite right with that story?
-Ed

The Jew could have meant it hypothetically, as in "If this was the son of G-d, then how could he have had a brother."

Odds are this is another fake like the shroud, possibly faked by the merchant.

-Ben
 
I think it is a well established fact that Jesus had at least one brother James. He was one of the leaders of the early church in Jerselum. Saul/Paul mentions him a few times in his letters (brother of the Lord). And remember these letters go back to the first Xian generation.

Apparently, James did not like the fact that Paul who never met Jesus was taking the religion away from Judiasm.

James is also mentioned in a short reference in Josephus as being killed by Annus the high priest in 62CE..."James brother of Jesus who is called Christ"

Hard to say Xian interlopation since it would read "James brother of Jesus Christ the messiah" or something like that.

The Catholic Church is simply engaging in rank special pleading to say that he did not have brothers, the oldest gospel Mark (c70CE) quite clearly says he does. I think it is close to the beginning...I suppose they wish to maintain the virgin thing at all costs. I would assume this is a later addition to the story...

My guess is this is a forgery, but then who knows? Perhaps?
 
When considering Jesus and the Christ family, more particularly family relationships in and about Jerusalem of the 1st Century, a question occurs to me. I would apprecate bible scholars or amature anthropologist opinion.

There is much speculation that Jesus had a brother: James -- despite the Catholic Church's late 19th Century doctrinal marginalization of him. There is also some suspicion that Peter, at least, was married (and how that might affect the ban on married priests in the Catholic church is another question for another day). However, given what we know, and the outline of the story of Jesus' life provided in the bible, here is my question:

Could Jesus have been married as well? Would not a man coming of age in that society at that time have been at least ceremonially married, and sometime well before the age of 33? Wouldn't it have been common for a young man of that time and location to have been married to a second or third cousin from the same town/village from whence he came? WOuld an un-married man of Jesus' age have been unusual? Wouldn't you expect several more of the apostles to have had wives, families, children?

Any thoughts, speculation, assertions or possible answers are appreciated.
 
Methinks I smell a trick

Headscratcher - I think you're hiding your light under a bushel, and you are aware of this debate.

There is an interesting argument (see e.g. Baigent, Holy Blood Holy Grail) that asserts that Jesus was, in fact, married. The argument goes:

(1) It was the norm for rabbis to marry. (2) The wedding mentioned in John was Jesus' own - there was no reason for a guest to serve the other guests it was the groom's job, there was no reason for a guest to turn water into wine.
 
Could Jesus have been married as well? Would not a man coming of age in that society at that time have been at least ceremonially married, and sometime well before the age of 33? Wouldn't it have been common for a young man of that time and location to have been married to a second or third cousin from the same town/village from whence he came? WOuld an un-married man of Jesus' age have been unusual? Wouldn't you expect several more of the apostles to have had wives, families, children?

There is (heretical) speculation that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalen. The wedding at Cana is supposed to be Jesus's wedding, on of the evidences of which is that when the party ran out of wine the guests complained to Jesus which makes perfect sense if he was the host and no sense if he was not.
 
BobM said:
The names are common, but what are the chances of them occuring in triplicate with the proper relationship like that?

I mean.. Bob Mayer is a common name. I've met 3 of them, not counting myself. But none of them have fathers named Karl, and brothers named Nick and/or Joe.

I'd say a better question would be "is this just a fake?" Which that article doesn't elaborate on.

According to the article at ABCNEWS.com, the archaeologist says it is "very probable" the artifact refers to the Biblical Jesus. However, the same archaeologist says that although the names James, Joseph, and Jesus were commonplace, he estimates that in Jerusalem at that time there were about 20 people named James who also had a father named Joseph and a brother named Jesus. Twenty. That means that there is about 1 in 20 chance -- 5% -- that the inscription refers to the Biblical Jesus. How is 5% considered "very probable?"

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/jesus021021.html
 
headscratcher4 said:
When considering Jesus and the Christ family, more particularly family relationships in and about Jerusalem of the 1st Century, a question occurs to me. I would apprecate bible scholars or amature anthropologist opinion.

There is much speculation that Jesus had a brother: James -- despite the Catholic Church's late 19th Century doctrinal marginalization of him. There is also some suspicion that Peter, at least, was married (and how that might affect the ban on married priests in the Catholic church is another question for another day). However, given what we know, and the outline of the story of Jesus' life provided in the bible, here is my question:

Could Jesus have been married as well? Would not a man coming of age in that society at that time have been at least ceremonially married, and sometime well before the age of 33? Wouldn't it have been common for a young man of that time and location to have been married to a second or third cousin from the same town/village from whence he came? WOuld an un-married man of Jesus' age have been unusual? Wouldn't you expect several more of the apostles to have had wives, families, children?

Any thoughts, speculation, assertions or possible answers are appreciated.

Have you ever seen the series of books that began with:

"Holy Blood, Holy Grail "
Michael Baigent Henry Lincoln Richard Leigh

They support the idea that the descendants of Jesus are alive today.
 
Gregor:

no, at least not intentionally hiding my "light" under a bushel (an interesting phrase, where from?).

My questions arise merely from a rather dilitantish interest in this subject. I have read a lot on the subject -- Wilson, et. al. -- of Jesus and the proof or lack of proof of his historical existence. Indeed, I am vaugely aware of the book that you mentioned, but read it many years ago and don't recall much about it thesis (indeed, till you mentioned it, I had forgotten it, but maybe that is why the ideas were somewhere in my otherwise small brain).

Anyway, just to lay my cards on the table, I believe that a historical Jesus is more likely than not. I do not think that Jesus is the son of god (I am an agnostic). I think Paul is the real problem here, and I like to speculate and think about how all of it came together (I like history...though I am especially interested in the Byzantine Empire and the Crusades). Anyway, just like to hear other opinions and what those more knowledgeable on the subject think of the sometime troubling or absent details of the Jesus story (as opposed to the big picture).
 
Flaherty said:


According to the article at ABCNEWS.com, the archaeologist says it is "very probable" the artifact refers to the Biblical Jesus. However, the same archaeologist says that although the names James, Joseph, and Jesus were commonplace, he estimates that in Jerusalem at that time there were about 20 people named James who also had a father named Joseph and a brother named Jesus. Twenty. That means that there is about 1 in 20 chance -- 5% -- that the inscription refers to the Biblical Jesus. How is 5% considered "very probable?"

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/jesus021021.html

I would like to be able to say 'It's a fake/hoax'.. But we do not have proof of that so far.

It just seems to me, the owner of this thing, had to have lived in a vacuum, if they were unaware of the significance of the inscription on it.
 
I think the reason they are saying one in twenty is probable is that the only other time they found a brother reference on one of these boxes is when the brother was important...Since James was head of a new religion based on his brother...

Of the twenty were there other James who would have reason to mention their one brother Jesus...
as opposed to other siblings?

If this is genuine, and that is a BIG if, I would think it is indeed likely to have been from Jesus's brother.
 
Diogenes said:


Have you ever seen the series of books that began with:

"Holy Blood, Holy Grail "
Michael Baigent Henry Lincoln Richard Leigh

They support the idea that the descendants of Jesus are alive today.

Yes, I am aware (though never finished) Holy Blood, Holy Grail. It was just too speculative and oogly/boogly.

Actually, my question arises not out of some strange belief that decendents of Jesus are still about, forming part of the illuminati or the families of the idiot crowned heads of Europe. Rather, my question is purely anthropological. I assume Jesus, if he existed, was essentially, a motivated, auto-didactic peasant. I assume his wife, if he had one, was a peasant too and that any children he had just became part of the peasant society in to which they were born...i.e. if Jesus' direct genes are still gene pool, they are general and not focused in Scotland, or Southern France, etc. (heck, if they are anywhere in Europe, than it is likely that anyone with European roots alive today, has em').

(Besides, I always thought if he had children, they would have been mentioned in the gospels, I mean, how could Grandma Mary, standing at the base of the cross at the crucifiction not take in little Billy-Bob and Alice?).

No, my questions arise out of interest in whether 12 un-married men roaming around the countryside in Galilee would have been common, understandable, likely, etc. In other words, the details of the Gospels, not the big picture.
 
Mike B. said:
I think the reason they are saying one in twenty is probable is that the only other time they found a brother reference on one of these boxes is when the brother was important...Since James was head of a new religion based on his brother...

Of the twenty were there other James who would have reason to mention their one brother Jesus...
as opposed to other siblings?

If this is genuine, and that is a BIG if, I would think it is indeed likely to have been from Jesus's brother.

One reason, suppose a Jesus (not the Jesus, but one of the other Jesus in the neighborhood), was a successful merchant and his younger brother James died. Maybe that Jesus paid for the box, and had his name inscribed on it for that reason... sort of like naming a college building after your father/son/daughter/wife, but making sure that somewhere in the inscription it is recognized that you, the big money guy, is providing the funds. There is a least one logical explaination for the box. James was the brother of an important religous leader OR James was the brother of Jesus the merchant who paid for the box. I am sure we could come up with others....

Afterthought, I was looking at the article again, if scholars are sayint this has a probability of being authentic, doesn't that cause some problems for the current Marian theology of the Vatican? To maintain it's doctrine, won't the Vatican have to find a way to dismiss this? Or, will we see them redefine "brother". Just so it is clear, I think this is all an academic exersize and doesn't change or force reconsideration of anyone who doubts the alleged divinity of Jesus.
 
Headscratcher4,
I believe the Gospels say specifically Cephas (Peter) had a mother-in-law and left his family to follow Jesus.

As far as Jesus is concerned, I would check out "A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus Vol. 1" by John P. Meier. It is sober in its analysis.
As far as Jesus having or not having a wife, Meier thinks not. It was not unheard of at the time for religious figures like some Essenes to practice celibacy and live a monastic life.
 
Could Jesus have been married as well? Would not a man coming of age in that society at that time have been at least ceremonially married, and sometime well before the age of 33? Wouldn't it have been common for a young man of that time and location to have been married to a second or third cousin from the same town/village from whence he came? WOuld an un-married man of Jesus' age have been unusual? Wouldn't you expect several more of the apostles to have had wives, families, children?

There is (heretical) speculation that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalen. The wedding at Cana is supposed to be Jesus's wedding, on of the evidences of which is that when the party ran out of wine the guests complained to Jesus which makes perfect sense if he was the host and no sense if he was not.
 
Headscratcher4,

You could be right about that. I am not an expert on ossuaries. However, are there other examples of people who paid for the box having their name put on it?

I am guessing if brothers were paying for boxes we would see "brother of" more commonly.
 
Diogenes said:


Have you ever seen the series of books that began with:

"Holy Blood, Holy Grail "
Michael Baigent Henry Lincoln Richard Leigh

They support the idea that the descendants of Jesus are alive today.


Sorry to dissapoint you but these books have been thoroughly debunked. A BBC program called 'The History Of A Mystery' revealed that the parchments which Lincoln et al drew so many conclusions from was in fact a 1950's forgery. In fact you get to see the actual parchment, signed by the artist! (Lincoln only ever saw copies).

The whole 'Priory of Zion' thing was also a hoax by a certain Msr Plantard. You may recall that Plantard is named in the books as the lineal descendant of Christ!! Lincoln was completely fooled by the entire charade.

The book is a good story, but very poor history.:cool:
 
I think the Catholic Church has been using the most specious reasoning to get rid of Jesus's brothers. Even when it says so clearly in the text. They say cousins. There is a word for cousin...

My guess is they will continue to maintain their Virgin thing...Hey it has been successful...Just look at Randi's commentary about Our Lady of Gudalope.
 
Gregor:

The wedding mentioned in John was Jesus' own - there was no reason for a guest to serve the other guests it was the groom's job, there was no reason for a guest to turn water into wine.

Jesus didn't actually serve the guests... in fact, turning the water to wine would be more like serving the groom since it would probably be embarrasing for him to run out of wine. Plus there are several other elements in the passage that make it sound like Jesus was a guest, rather than the groom (emphasis added):

John 2:2 -- "Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding."

John 2:3 -- "When the wine was gone, Jesus' mother said to him, 'They have no more wine.'" (for BGreen... the guests didn't complain to him, only his mother)

John 2:4 -- "'Dear woman, why do you involve me?' Jesus replied" (if he was the groom, it would be obvious why she would involve him... it would be his responsibility)

John 2:5 -- "His mother said to the servants, 'Do whatever he tells you.'" (If it was his wedding, why would the servants need to be told to listen to him?)

John 2:9 -- "the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside" (Why is the groom mentioned distinctly from Jesus if they are the same person?)

You'd need to come up with some sort of methodology that allows those verses to be explained away while leaving the rest of the passage intact -- otherwise you are left with Jesus as guest or else you are left without any wedding at all.
 
RonSceptic said:



Sorry to dissapoint you but these books have been thoroughly debunked. A BBC program called 'The History Of A Mystery' revealed that the parchments which Lincoln et al drew so many conclusions from was in fact a 1950's forgery. In fact you get to see the actual parchment, signed by the artist! (Lincoln only ever saw copies).

The whole 'Priory of Zion' thing was also a hoax by a certain Msr Plantard. You may recall that Plantard is named in the books as the lineal descendant of Christ!! Lincoln was completely fooled by the entire charade.

The book is a good story, but very poor history.:cool:

I was dissapointed by about page ten or so.

Headscratcher4 asked for : " Any thoughts, speculation, assertions or possible answers are appreciated."

Did I mention 'credibility'?


I do not even agree with you that it is ' a good story ' .
 

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