Pope Death Watch!

[rebecca]

Place your bets.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1224538,0005.htm

 

[c4ts]

Poor guy.

 

[JLam]

You really do have to admire the guy as a leader. Who else in the world is welcomed with open arms by everyone from George Bush to Fidel Castro? There are few people in the world who are respected by as many people as he is.

I'm an athiest, but I really do think highly of him. I don't agree with him on a majority of things, but dang...I've got to at least give him points for sheer longevity. And his core message is a good one, even if it is shrouded in a religion that's held together by superstition and fear.

I also think he's probably going to live to be 196 years old. He's been stabbed, shot, had major surgeries and hasn't had sex in 84 years. He's obviously made of steel

 

[Darat]

You really do have to admire the guy as a leader. Who else in the world is welcomed with open arms by everyone from George Bush to Fidel Castro? There are few people in the world who are respected by as many people as he is.

I think he's been a terrible leader for the Catholic Church. As an example consider his response to the terrible exposure of the extent of child abuse in the Catholic Church.

I'm an athiest, but I really do think highly of him. I don't agree with him on a majority of things, but dang...I've got to at least give him points for sheer longevity. And his core message is a good one, even if it is shrouded in a religion that's held together by superstition and fear.

A good leader would have stepped down in light of his growing ill health, but he belongs to something that has a weird cult like mentality that doesn't let its leader step down, he's got to die in the job (as far as I am aware).

His core message is not a good one. You are aware this is the Pope that stated only Roman Catholic "Christians" are Christians and are living to God/Jesus recommendations? So unless you’re one of the billion RCers or so (and have lived as the church says you must or if you can’t live by the Church’s commands make sure you get a deathbed confession to clear-up any nastiness you may have committed during your life) then guess what eternity will be like for you? This man’s core message is “do as I say else….”

His core message and his opinions are barbaric.

I also think he's probably going to live to be 196 years old. He's been stabbed, shot, had major surgeries and hasn't had sex in 84 years. He's obviously made of steel

He has had access to the best medical treatment money can buy, wonder why he doesn’t just follow Mother Theresa’s philosophy? Oh sorry that's right he does! After all the poor are poor because of God's will and they'll always be with us so their pain, suffering and agony when they are dying is OK so they don’t need any palliative medical treatment. But if you're rich (or have access to the appropriate people) like the Pope and MT you can get whatever treatment you need, and your pain can be relieved.

Sorry for sounding so strident but just because he might be dying doesn't change who he is or excuse the terrible and cruel ideas he has tried to promote.

(I am well aware I have grossly simplified a lot of things in this post, but it is meant to be more of a polemic then a long detailed considered critic or argument.)

 

[iain]

I'm sure the psychics around the world are longing for him to die. Every year they must look around for dead cert predictions to make and every year they must think "surely the Pope can't last another year." But he does and they get it wrong, again.

 

[Filippo Lippi]

I posted this elsewhere - forgive the "Mexican" bit

Irony missed by World's poor.

Hundreds of millions of the world's poorest people failed to appreciate the irony as they offered up prayers for an old man whose assertion of religious doctrine had helped keep them in the cycle of poverty. They also failed to reconsider their deeply held belief in an omipotent, benevolent deity despite the fact that "God's Representative on Earth" has succumbed to an all-too-human degenrative illness that destroys the cognitive processes.

Jose Escuodaro, 39, of the Heguela Bario near Mexico City said, "Despite the fact that my wife, myself and our thirteen children live in a corrugated iron shack that runs with vermin and human excrement we continue to pray for the old man who has lived in relative luxury for all his life. As we buried little Pablito yesterday, in the family plot next to his five brothers and sisters, the priest said that we should offer up our exhortations to the Lord to protect the man whose pronouncements had helped condemn our baby to an early grave through his interpretations of 3000 year old religious texts. Today, I have spent my meagre wages, not on feeding my family, but on this icon."

 

[JLam]

As an example consider his response to the terrible exposure of the extent of child abuse in the Catholic Church

I agree that the initial response was HORRIBLE. I was raised in the Catholic Church and though I was never diddled by a priest myself, I know people who have been...and I think that the way it was handled up until a couple of years ago was just crazy. In fairness, since the whole scandal blew up, the Vatican has really cracked down and gotten their act together, though I would like to see them take more action. However, priests are no longer being shuffled from parish to parish when abuse allegations surface. That's a good thing.

This man’s core message is “do as I say else….”

That's what I meant about the message being clouded by superstition and fear. The core message of most religions basically boils down to "Be nice, help people, and don't be a d**k." I agree with that message. It's the "Do as I say else..." that turned me off from religion in the first place. I agree with you, and I don't think any leader should frame an argument that way.

he belongs to something that has a weird cult like mentality

Well, in fairness, most religions have a weird, cult-like mentality. Being a religious leader, that sort of goes with the territory.

I realize the irony of an atheist defending the pope, and I don't want to sound like an apologist for the man. His views on a woman's role in society and other issues such as birth control are antiquated and just plain wrong. No leader is perfect, and he has acknowledged that the church has made mistakes. But he has also done good things. Consider that many people (secular and non-secular alike) credit his association with the Solidarity movement in Poland one of the driving forces that helped bring down that country's Communist regime. I'd say that worked out pretty well.

Darat, I realize that you take issue with him as a leader, and I respect that. I just think that to summarily dismiss him as an ineffective leader is short-sighted, and I respectfully disagree with that part of your argument.

Edited to remove a stupid argument

 

[HarryKeogh]

I disagree with so many things he stands for but if this is his time to go I hope he goes peacefully.

Considering I was a Catholic for the majority of the time he was Pope I will be saddened with his death, despite how I feel about him or his church's policies.

 

[farmermike]

According to the news this morning,he seems to be improving.See! prayer works,(Probably not the RC prayers) but I'll bet the baptist ones got through.

 

[pgwenthold]

I As we buried little Pablito yesterday,

I'm not fluent in spanish, but doesn't "Pablito" mean "Little Pablo"? Isn't "Little Pablito" redundant?

"Oh, you speak english?"
"No, just that speech, and this one explaining it."
"You're kidding, right?"
"Que?"

 

[Lucifuge Rofocale]

I'm not fluent in spanish, but doesn't "Pablito" mean "Little Pablo"? Isn't "Little Pablito" redundant?

"Oh, you speak english?"
"No, just that speech, and this one explaining it."
"You're kidding, right?"
"Que?"

"Pequeño Pablito" is perfectly acceptable in Spanish

 

[Beerina]

Before you guys go off the deep end on Pope hatred, keep in mind that US Catholics are as rich as any other US citizen. It's not the religion that keeps people poor -- it's the dictators, the communist governments, et al.

Secondly, the Pope did do some good things -- and probably braver than most of you ever would. When Poland was having labor troubles, and the government there was gonna crack down hard lest the Soviets pull another re-invasion, he publicly announced he'd lay down his Pope hat and march with the labor.

Now you'd have a civil uprising that would probably lead to civil war -- and communism would lose big time vs. the Catholic Church in the hearts of the people. The people being oppressed, not the fatasses sitting in their Ivory Towers in the West. He stared them down and helped get the ball rolling towards collapse of the Soviet Empire.

 

[geni]

A good leader would have stepped down in light of his growing ill health, but he belongs to something that has a weird cult like mentality that doesn't let its leader step down, he's got to die in the job (as far as I am aware).

He is probably not going going to for a number of reasons but popes have abidicated in the past.

His core message is not a good one. You are aware this is the Pope that stated only Roman Catholic "Christians" are Christians and are living to God/Jesus recommendations?

Source? The cardinal of the dictrine of the faith (aka the head of the inquistion) has stated that other forms of chritiany are "gravely defficent" but that is all I am aware of recently.

So unless you’re one of the billion RCers or so (and have lived as the church says you must or if you can’t live by the Church’s commands make sure you get a deathbed confession to clear-up any nastiness you may have committed during your life) then guess what eternity will be like for you? This man’s core message is “do as I say else….”

His core message and his opinions are barbaric.

I take it you vote for the anachist party at eletions (because a lot of goverment boils down to do what we say or else)?

 

[supercorgi]

I've got to agree with Darat on this one. I think he's pushed for Dark Age religious mentallity in the RC church instead of continuing the progressive reforms of Vatican II.

However, he's a human being and when he goes I hope he goes peacefully.

 

[LostAngeles]

Stupid medical technology! I'll lose my chance at the Million if he lives!

So what if I didn't actually apply!? Like that stops anyone else from complaining. I wanna be part of that in-crowd of "Wahh. I earned the Million and I didn't get it!"

*sigh* So not fair.

 

[jimmygun]

I remember back in the 60's and 70's when ever a Soviet leader was ill they always said it was nothing to be alarmed about, just a nasty cold or something like that. A few days later they turned up dead from that cold.

The same thing is happening with the pope. There is no way on earth that they will say that the pope is gravely ill. That a 80+ man with failing health might die, as if a false hope of eternal life here is worth the trouble.

As for the prayers, what are they praying for? That he recover enough to go on suffering from several ailments? That he die and go to heaven? That god will forgive his sins?

 

[geni]

I remember back in the 60's and 70's when ever a Soviet leader was ill they always said it was nothing to be alarmed about, just a nasty cold or something like that. A few days later they turned up dead from that cold.

The same thing is happening with the pope. There is no way on earth that they will say that the pope is gravely ill.

They probably will. When an orginisation has been around for as long as the catholic church has it get used to dealing with it's leaders dieing

 

[richardm]

From a strictly literal point of view, it shouldn't matter who the pope is. He's just channeling God, and doesn't have anything to say for himself.

Also, he's presumably going straight off to sit at the Right Hand of the Lord, and have beer and play darts with the Ex-Popes Saturday League (Sec: Pete). So he'll probably be glad to get away.

On a personal note, I'd say only that although I disagree with quite a lot that he's done, he has still been part of the world's background for the last 20-odd years, and I should think he'll be a miss when he's gone.

 

[AWPrime]

I also think he's probably going to live to be 196 years old. He's been stabbed, shot, had major surgeries and hasn't had sex in 84 years. He's obviously made of steel

Robo-pope...

 

[ceo_esq]

There's an old saying around the Vatican: "The pope is never sick until he is dead."

Seriously, though, I'm a bit taken aback by some of what I've read here. To say that John Paul II's reputation and record form a pretty solid basis for admiration is like saying that there's reason to doubt that Al Capone was quite the upstanding citizen he claimed to be.

As a young man, this fellow was a hero in the Polish resistance against the Nazis during World War II. He is widely viewed by people on both sides of the former Iron Curtain as an indispensable player in the downfall of European Communism. He has done more than perhaps any person who ever lived to improve relations between the Catholic and Jewish communities worldwide. He has founded numerous institutions of learning and research in the humanities and sciences.

John Paul II has been called - not without reason - the best-informed person alive. He is surely the most intellectual figure on the world stage. He holds two earned doctorates (in philosophy and theology, respectively) and was a phenomenally accomplished student, earning almost superhumanly high marks from secondary school all the way up to his doctoral examinations and dissertation defenses. At one time, he was considered to be one of his country's most promising young poets, playwrights and stage actors. He contributed important Polish translations of literary classics, including translations of Sophocles from the original ancient Greek. The pope also is fluent in anywhere from 8 to 12 (depending on whom you consult) modern languages, such that despite being one of the most well-traveled persons in history he rarely requires an interpreter.

The man has been honored with a staggering array of the world's most prestigious awards in recognition of his contributions to social justice, world peace and other humanitarian concerns. These include, among many others, the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the Congressional Gold Medal, the International Charlemagne Prize, the Agricola Medal, the Schuman Medal and the Rotary Award for World Understanding. For similar reasons, he has been awarded a multitude of honorary degrees by major universities around the globe.

Here's what his neighbors and acquaintances say about him:

• "I am convinced that John Paul's mission is to serve mankind. His motives are never mundane, his thoughts know no borders.... I wish from the bottom of my heart that Heaven allows him to serve mankind under God's guidance for as long as possible." - Mikhail Gorbachev, last president of the Soviet Union and Nobel Peace Prize winner
  
• "Defeating communism and ending the Cold War was a success, with many fathers. All of them deserve credit for helping to achieve this peacefully. But it is impossible not to bow, as a dutiful son, before the paramount champion of the cause of freedom - Pope John Paul. I do so looking back at the miracle [he] wrought, which gave meaning and confidence to our efforts and changed the face of the world." - Lech Walesa, former president of Poland, founder of the Solidarity trade union movement and Nobel Peace Prize winner
  
• "He has reminded us of our obligations under humanitarian law; of our duty to provide humanitarian aid to suffering civilians and refugees.... He has reminded us that lasting peace means more than the absence of war, and depends on two indivisible and interdependent rights: the right to peace and the right to development.... He has spelt out that there will be peace only if humankind rediscovers itself as one human family, a family in which the equal dignity and rights of individuals - whatever our status, race or religion - are recognized as more important than any difference or distinction among us. That is why, for millions around the globe, Pope John Paul has become the most powerful voice of peace, hope and justice they know. I am particularly grateful that in my meetings with him, I have been fortunate enough to be inspired by that voice first hand." - Kofi Annan, UN Secretary-General and Nobel Peace Prize winner

A humanitarian army of one; an intellectual giant; by all reports a man of extremely decent and humble character who undoubtedly will leave the world a far, far better place than he found it.

Is there any compelling basis for concluding that John Paul II is anything but a huge net benefactor to humankind that doesn't simultaneously suggest that Catholicism itself is, on balance, an unpardonable sin?