POM 5 - Clive "Screwtape" Lewis

[FireGarden]

Kopji

There is simply not enough humor in religion, Lewis's book conveys the sense he enjoyed writing it the way he did.

I had that impression also. Probably because I enjoy writing that sort of thing myself.

But it turns out, according to the intro to Screwtape Proposes A Toast , that he "never wrote with less enjoyment."

 

[RandFan]

If all Christians were like Kitty Chan, my lions would go hungry.

Yeah, I enjoy reading her posts also.

Screwtape didn't do anything for me at the time I read it. My thanks to this thread. I'm very interested now. Never too late to catch up.

 

[Kopji]

Kopji

I had that impression also. Probably because I enjoy writing that sort of thing myself.

But it turns out, according to the intro to Screwtape Proposes A Toast , that he "never wrote with less enjoyment."

-sigh- Oh how sad, you are right. It is also written in the introduction to the paperback version of The Screwtape Letters.

I suppose in the most literal sense, if he enjoyed writing a lot, he could write with 'least enjoyment' and still surpass many of us. Oh ok, I was wrong, and will accept my flogging from wherever Randfan gets his from... can Kitty do it?

 

[Robin]

Kopji

I had that impression also. Probably because I enjoy writing that sort of thing myself.

But it turns out, according to the intro to Screwtape Proposes A Toast , that he "never wrote with less enjoyment."

It may have been because Lewis detested the idea and doctrine of Hell (see Problem of Pain). Reading the book gives the impression that he is deriving some schadenfreude from the damnation of others - this impression is obviously not accurate.

 

[Kitty Chan]

gonna peek my head in here, gosh. clears throat.

The whole, bible accuracy. Falls in with my love of Mr Cloud

Really I know a person wants to be accurate with scripture and want scripture to be accurate. But like Cloud picking misses the whole. Mind you its not new, even in the bible people were arguing about picky bits and missing the easy stuff.

The whole and how it all fits even though it seems confused at times. Lewis I think was very good at sorting out that confusion. He probably doesnt enjoy it like Robin said, but he could see and understand it. And and perhaps at his expense to a degree shared it with us.

Going back to Screwtape, Lewis does the same. Exposing those little things one doesnt want to admit they do or feel. Im moving ahead in chapters but the one about "too much" oh thats too much on the plate. Completely never thought about how that would affect another.

Shifting the perception of whats real (in first chapter), keeps people from actually discussing what is. Is it more real to know that this woman appeared before the other or that there was 2 or 3. Or is it more real to realise that by your actions you can carelessly be hurting someone. Does it not come forward to your mind that Screwtape thinking tends to serve you alone. When you get away from it, then you forget about yourself.

I wonder if thats true reality, and why Screwtape would not want the patient there.

 

[FireGarden]

Kitty Chan

Im moving ahead in chapters but the one about "too much" oh thats too much on the plate. Completely never thought about how that would affect another.

Is that letter 17?
I would never have thought of that as being a kind of gluttony. A taste, not for excess, but for things to be 'just so'. A modest request can put someone out, even if they've already offered you more. And, of course, such a request puts you at the centre of your thoughts.

 

[Kitty Chan]

yes 17.

And after what I posted and in other spots lately I would like to guess at the train of thought that was in the first chapter.

The whole nutshell of christianity is to take oneself out of the centre of thoughts, to forget oneself completely.

Screwtape is disccusing the kind of things we cling to that do not allow us the freedom, instead as its said we are prisoners.

So perhaps the fellow began to think along these lines, a idea building upon another.

?

 

[Robin]

The whole nutshell of christianity is to take oneself out of the centre of thoughts, to forget oneself completely.

But why then the importance of the survival of the self beyond the death of the body? If we were to forget ourselves completely then personal salvation would be unimportant.

 

[FireGarden]

Mark Twain was a quiet, retiring atheist. Much too timid to speak his mind, and always careful to avoid causing offence. ... Not!

Mark Twain - Letters from the Earth made me think of The Screwtape Letters. I thought it would be interesting to make a comparison.

Brief summary
We witness the creation of matter and natural law. Satan is not impressed, and questions God overlong about the myriad of creatures that just kill, kill, kill. Then Satan is banished from heaven for a day (1000yrs, our time) and decides to look in on Earth. But not our Earth. How many people, in our world, are expecting Heaven to be a never-ending Sabbath with never-ending sing along worhip? Have people ever really believed that?

The text includes some ideas that Twain repeats elsewhere. Such as, "Thou shall not kill" is not a commandment given to Tigers; and God's fondness of flies and disease. Basically: A catalogue of Twain's ideas on what makes religion (Christianity in particular) ridiculous.


Lewis lays into hypocrisy generally. Twain limits himself to religion. Which might be why I find Lewis to be more relevent to me personally. In fact, I stopped reading LFE after the first 7 letters.

You can also walk away with something positive from The Screwtape Letters. All I can find in Letters from the Earth are some arguments that I might use if I ever find a biblical literalist. (And I get desperate for an argument).



While I'm here....
Twain's The War Prayer is a grave and earnest version of Python's "Holy Hand Grenade" sketch.

 

[jjramsey]

The part about the Screwtape Letters that I like best is what C. S. Lewis says about pleasure and morality:

Never forget that when we are dealing with any pleasure in its healthy and normal and satisfying form, we are, in a sense, on the Enemy's ground. I know we have won many a soul through pleasure. All the same, it is His invention, not ours. He made the pleasures: all our research so far has not enabled us to produce one. All we can do is to encourage the humans to take the pleasures which our Enemy has produced, at times, or in ways, or in degrees, which He has forbidden. Hence we always try to work away from the natural condition of any pleasure to that in which it is least natural, least redolent of its Maker, and least pleasurable. An ever increasing craving for an ever diminishing pleasure is the formula. It is more certain; and it's better style. To get the man's soul and give him nothing in return--that is what really gladdens our Father's heart.

(The above is from Letter IX.)

This is, among other things, good antidote to the idea that morality must be a killjoy.