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Polygraphs: The evidence

Astrology has never predicted, at a rate better than chance, anything. And, no, predicting that a Sagittarian will suffer "a cold wind on your next birthday" is not astrology by any stretch.

You miss the point: If I can dictate certain circumstances, I can prove that astrology works better than chance, too. E.g., by claiming that "Sagittarians will suffer a cold wind on your next birthday" is a valid prediction.

Nor have I seen the scientific community's consensus that "polygraphs are pseudoscience", whatever that means. It is clearly a subject of much scrutiny, as it should be. From what I can tell, however, there is consensus is that the lab studies generally demonstrate detectable differences in physiological response.

But enough with the appeals to authority, already. Let's use our own brains and look at some data. Have you looked at the data? But I'll play this one more time.

*bing*

You have completely misunderstood what scientific consensus means. It doesn't mean "appeal to authority". It means that the scientific community overwhelmingly agrees that something X exists, based on the evidence.

So far, we have yet to see this happen with polygraphs.

Take a look in the scientific journals. Take some of the more popular, like Nature, Science, Scientific American.

Don't you think they would have picked up on something like this?
 
I'll try it one more time: Do you dispute that in lab conditions, polygraph tests identify liars at a rate greater than chance? It is a very simple question.

He will go to the ends of the earth to avoid answering this. This thread could go for 200 pages and he won't answer it.
 
You miss the point: If I can dictate certain circumstances, I can prove that astrology works better than chance, too. E.g., by claiming that "Sagittarians will suffer a cold wind on your next birthday" is a valid prediction.

That's not dictating the circumstances, it's dictating the question. And it appears to be a frantic grab for straws as well. It is a valid prediction, but it is in no way proof of any predictive power of astrology. It is instead proof of the predictive power of long-term weather records.

Design me a study in which proof of the discerning power of the polygraph is guaranteed...or even enhanced "by dictating the circumstances". You say it can be done.

I predict that you will include non-blind trials, directionally biased non-random assignment of subjects to treatment groups, and other sloppy methods. Though some were far from perfect in design and execution, such problems were generally not part of the lab studies included in the meta-analysis.
 
That's not dictating the circumstances, it's dictating the question. And it appears to be a frantic grab for straws as well. It is a valid prediction, but it is in no way proof of any predictive power of astrology. It is instead proof of the predictive power of long-term weather records.

But it is very much proof of the predictive power of astrology: If I can show that in the future, a certain group of people will experience X - above chance - then you have to acknowledge that astrology "works". Precisely the same way you say polygraphs "work".

In both cases, depending on the circumstances, of course.

Design me a study in which proof of the discerning power of the polygraph is guaranteed...or even enhanced "by dictating the circumstances". You say it can be done.

I predict that you will include non-blind trials, directionally biased non-random assignment of subjects to treatment groups, and other sloppy methods. Though some were far from perfect in design and execution, such problems were generally not part of the lab studies included in the meta-analysis.

We already have that: Polygraphs is an intimidation tool: You get scared/bamboozled into slipping up, until the truth is extracted from you.

Can you name one perfectly designed, perfectly executed study?

Do you understand that referring to scientific consensus is not appealing to authority?

Don't you think scientific journals like Nature, Science and Scientific American would have picked up on something like this?
 
But it is very much proof of the predictive power of astrology: If I can show that in the future, a certain group of people will experience X - above chance - then you have to acknowledge that astrology "works". Precisely the same way you say polygraphs "work".

In both cases, depending on the circumstances, of course.

OK, I'm clearly not understanding you. Can somebody help me understand this argument?

More often than not the researchers used methods designed to minimize any experimental bias in the "circumstances" by keeping everything constant and blind except the one factor that was being examined: lying subjects vs. truthful subjects. Yes, it is possible to rig experiments or introduce bias, but I just don't see it in most of these studies. Please point out such "circumstances" in these studies.

We already have that: Polygraphs is an intimidation tool: You get scared/bamboozled into slipping up, until the truth is extracted from you.

No, no, no. No truth was extracted in these experiments. The subjects plugged in, told the truth or lied, and left. And the polygraphs were, on average, different enough to tell apart. To take it one step further, a computer can be used to analyze the polygraph...with similar greater-than-chance detection rates, eliminating at least that potential source of bias...which could only exist anywhay if the polygraph reader were not blind to the identity of the subject: http://ftp.fas.org/sgp/othergov/polygraph/ota/analog.html

Can you name one perfectly designed, perfectly executed study?

Do you understand that referring to scientific consensus is not appealing to authority?

Don't you think scientific journals like Nature, Science and Scientific American would have picked up on something like this?

1) No. Not in any field of study. Including evolution, old-earth geology, etc. But some appear pretty good (e.g. the Kircher, and Podlesny and Raskin studies above).

2) Yes. Sorry, that was not the right phrase. I still question that there is a consensus in the pseudoscientific nature of the phenomenon of lying being statistically detectable via polygraph. There is consensus that it may have no value and may be unethical and unwise.

3) Maybe they have not "picked up on it" because the phenomenon itself is not in question. Even Nature, which is very critical of the application of polygraph in legal, governmental, and business settings has this to say of the polygraph: "The polygraph ("lie detector") test is wrong one-third of the time overall, biased against innocent and conscientious persons, and can be "beaten" by sophisticated liars." (Nature 307, 681 - 684). Which means, what? It is right 2/3 of the time. Polygraph may be useless and, in the wrong hands downright dangerous, but the data seem to indicate that the claim made in the OP is qualitatively accurate.
 
I can't say whether it would qualify or not. That is entirely up to Randi.

I'm not.

It doesn't.
I am well aware of that. Which is why I asked for your own, not binding on Randi or anyone else, opinion. Clearly you have an opinion on polygraphs. You even claim to know the scientific consensus on them. So why can't you answer my question and opine on whether it should (not does, but should) qualify for the MDC?

You can create an artificial situation in the lab and test just about anything. But you can't automatically extrapolate that to the real world, because the test isn't applicable if the situation is different.
Nice work here, Claus.

CFLarsen now says that labratory tests are useless! Those tests didn't disprove homeopathy/magnet therapy/chakra cleansing - those 'lab tests' were artificial and can't be applied to the real world! For real world stuff, you need to listen to specially selected anecdotal quips!
 
How could we use the polygraph in a real-world setting when we don't know the 'correct' result? .13., the important point to grasp is that the polygraph is no different in this respect from any imperfect test – a medical screening test, for example. We do the basic research, conduct studies to determine the scope of validity and obtain the 'calibration' data. When we have enough confidence in the test we introduce it in the field, including QA to monitor and improve the test's performance.

But there is a difference. You can't verify the polygraph results. If you could you wouldn't need the polygraph in the first place.

Let's consider an example medical test: You test a patient for some viral disease. You get a negative result and send the patient home. Next morning he comes back showing symptoms. Now you know that your test was wrong.

Now consider this somewhat facetious example: You perform a polygraph test on an employee. He passes it. Next morning he comes back looking guilty: "I lied in my polygraph yesterday." And now you know your test was wrong.

:)
.13.
It's not true that if you could verify polygraph results you wouldn't need the polygraph. There are very many real-world examples of inaccurate screening tests being used when accurate diagnostic tests are available – for reasons of cost, convenience etc.

Leaving that aside, I fully understand your point, but I don't see it as an absolute difference between polygraphy and medical screening (or any other established type of testing). It just makes QA more difficult. As with a medical screening test, you don't just introduce it because it sounds as though it ought to work; you have to have a solid body of experimental verification, and plenty of population data to use in setting the comparison parameters, detection cutoffs etc. (Actually, status, influence or a good marketing campaign can be just as important, but that's another story, and not specific to polygraphy.)

Ideally, we monitor all screening programs, estimate false-positive and detection rates, gather data to refine the calculation parameters, and incorporate the results of further experimental studies to improve the test's accuracy and scope. Bear in mind that, generally, medical tests have not been subjected to this kind of QA - evidence-based medicine is fairly new – but most of them probably worked quite well because the initial studies were sound. Also, for some tests a positive screening result indicates an increased risk that a disease will develop later (rather than an increased risk that it is present but undetected), so performance criteria can't be applied in the usual way.

It is not hopeless to attempt to apply QA to polygraph testing. If we assume that deception/guilt is correlated with some real-world effect then in principle we can measure something that is not too far removed from sensitivity and specificity (e.g. conviction rates). And of course we must be aware of bias (a positive polygraph test may encourage the police to try harder for a conviction, etc.).

We need independent confirmation (or otherwise) of polygraph results, but the obvious problem is that the two groups (pass and fail) are treated differently after the test, so confirmation may be impossible (for example, applicants deemed to be dishonest may not be employed). It would be possible to perform studies in which polygraph results are not acted on (they would have to be hidden), but in general, QA (in terms of performance testing and of population data analysis) would have to rely more on experimental studies.

To summarise: your objection, though valid, is not a killer argument by itself. It is another hit against routine polygraphy to add to the bag!


As to distinguishing a nervous response from a guilty one, we assume that there are in principle some detectable differences between the two types of response, and try to refine the test to amplify these differences. As digithead suggests, there are theoretical reasons to suggest that the problem will be reduced by using GKT-type questions rather than CQT – I don't know how well this has been tested.
Is that a valid assumption? Which measurment could potentially show this difference?

But in anycase regardless of if it could be done in the future or not: Surely the machine can't do that with current technology?

To some extent, the different polygraph outputs are redundant measures of excitation of the sympathetic nervous system. But even without any data, common observation suggests that the pattern of physiological responses to stress differs, on average, according to the cause of the stress (for example, embarrassment is more likely to cause blushing). So, the pattern of correlations between polygraph outputs should also differ. The average differences may be small (therefore the signal-to-noise ratio low) but by using sophisticated mathematical techniques in computer algorithms it is often possible to get good discrimination from what doesn't appear to be much information (or, of course, the neural network approach might work).

Also, we have additional information from the pattern of questions that led to a response, hesitation at a particular question etc. Analysis of this kind of information should help researchers to improve questioning strategies. digithead's point about the effectiveness of GKT vs CQT is obviously relevant here (I think it makes sense to regard them as different questioning strategies rather than different tests).

I don't know what studies (if any) have looked at better methods of interpreting the available information, and couldn't find any relevant references in the NA report.
 
OK, I'm clearly not understanding you. Can somebody help me understand this argument?

More often than not the researchers used methods designed to minimize any experimental bias in the "circumstances" by keeping everything constant and blind except the one factor that was being examined: lying subjects vs. truthful subjects. Yes, it is possible to rig experiments or introduce bias, but I just don't see it in most of these studies. Please point out such "circumstances" in these studies.

You give part of the answer yourself:

No, no, no. No truth was extracted in these experiments. The subjects plugged in, told the truth or lied, and left. And the polygraphs were, on average, different enough to tell apart. To take it one step further, a computer can be used to analyze the polygraph...with similar greater-than-chance detection rates, eliminating at least that potential source of bias...which could only exist anywhay if the polygraph reader were not blind to the identity of the subject: http://ftp.fas.org/sgp/othergov/polygraph/ota/analog.html

Lying is one of the best ways to become a social outcast. Nobody likes a liar, because you are simply untrustworthy. There are huge consequences to lying - depending on what you are lying about.

If you forgot to buy a birthday card for Gramps, but say - for the sake of keeping the peace around the house - that you have (only to do it the next day), the lie isn't as bad. Your anxiety level is - hopefully - not particularly high.

But when you lie about a crime or something that is considered much more damaging than a forgotten birthday card, you bet your anxiety levels are way up there! The stakes are much higher.

Now, when you lie in a lab, there's not much consequence. If you lie about you seeing Jack of Spades, it's not much of a terrifying experience if you are found out. And even if you are asked about your sexual perversities, you don't fear as much, because the answer will not get past the lab door.

You simply don't get a reliable result in a lab.

1) No. Not in any field of study. Including evolution, old-earth geology, etc. But some appear pretty good (e.g. the Kircher, and Podlesny and Raskin studies above).

Then, your objection is invalid.

2) Yes. Sorry, that was not the right phrase. I still question that there is a consensus in the pseudoscientific nature of the phenomenon of lying being statistically detectable via polygraph. There is consensus that it may have no value and may be unethical and unwise.

Let's take a look:

Some scientists say the socalled lie-detector test is about as accurate as a palm reading. Others say that even the most pathological of liars haven’t been able to fool it.

Noting this long-standing scientific disagreement about the ability of a machine to tell truth from fabrication...
American Psychological Association


The polygraph. It has been a principle fixture in the federal government’s security processes for decades. However, within the behavioral sciences community, the polygraph is a controversial device that has often generated a polarizing reaction. Advocates point to research indicating accuracy rates exceeding 80%, the growing acceptance of the polygraph in the court system and beneficial use of polygraph in sex offender rehabilitation. Opponents cite high false positive rates and question the underlying theories coupling the act of lying with physiological arousal. This dichotomy of opinion was most recently highlighted in a National Academy of Sciences National Research Council study which recognized polygraph weaknesses but ultimately concluded that “. . .potential alternatives to the polygraph show promise, but none has yet shown to outperform the polygraph.”
American Psychology Association


The accuracy (i.e., validity) of polygraph testing has long been controversial. An underlying problem is theoretical: There is no evidence that any pattern of physiological reactions is unique to deception. An honest person may be nervous when answering truthfully and a dishonest person may be non-anxious. Also, there are few good studies that validate the ability of polygraph procedures to detect deception. As Dr. Saxe and Israeli psychologist Gershon Ben-Shahar (1999) note, "it may, in fact, be impossible to conduct a proper validity study." In real-world situations, it's very difficult to know what the truth is.
American Psychology Association

Polygraph, or lie detector, tests are the most well-known method of discerning fact from fiction, but researchers say they are not reliable because they measure anxiety based on a subject's pulse or breathing rate, which can easily be misread. "They're not detecting deception but rather the anxiety of being…[accused of deception]," Spence says. "It's known that psychopaths have a reduced level of anxiety," that would allow them to fool a polygraph.
Scientific American

And this from Lykken:
"Polygraphs are a little more accurate than flipping a coin," says Lykken,

...Lykken, past president of the Society for Psychophysiological Research, blames the technique, not the technicians, for polygraph failures. "The field as a whole is incompetent, and they're using a foolish procedure," he said. "The idea of basing any significant decision on the basis of a polygraph exam is ignorant, it's foolish, it's dangerous."
...
Ames beat the polygraph easily. Anyone can -- with a little coaching.

I don't know about you, but this is not what I would call "scientific consensus that the polygraph works".


3) Maybe they have not "picked up on it" because the phenomenon itself is not in question. Even Nature, which is very critical of the application of polygraph in legal, governmental, and business settings has this to say of the polygraph: "The polygraph ("lie detector") test is wrong one-third of the time overall, biased against innocent and conscientious persons, and can be "beaten" by sophisticated liars." (Nature 307, 681 - 684). Which means, what? It is right 2/3 of the time. Polygraph may be useless and, in the wrong hands downright dangerous, but the data seem to indicate that the claim made in the OP is qualitatively accurate.

No, it doesn't mean that it is right 2/3 of the time. It means that the polygraph didn't detect a lie 2/3 of the time - if there was a lie.

There is a hell of a difference between a phenomenon happening and a phenomenon being detected - especially with lie detectors.

I am well aware of that. Which is why I asked for your own, not binding on Randi or anyone else, opinion. Clearly you have an opinion on polygraphs. You even claim to know the scientific consensus on them. So why can't you answer my question and opine on whether it should (not does, but should) qualify for the MDC?

I'm a member of the Danish skeptics who can perform preliminary tests for the Challenge. It could possibly be seen as an acceptance of such a claim. I have to leave that to Randi.

Nice work here, Claus.

CFLarsen now says that labratory tests are useless! Those tests didn't disprove homeopathy/magnet therapy/chakra cleansing - those 'lab tests' were artificial and can't be applied to the real world! For real world stuff, you need to listen to specially selected anecdotal quips!

I say no such thing.
 
I don't know about you, but this is not what I would call "scientific consensus that the polygraph works".
It also doesn't look like scientific consensus that the polygraph is "pseudoscience".
I'm a member of the Danish skeptics who can perform preliminary tests for the Challenge. It could possibly be seen as an acceptance of such a claim. I have to leave that to Randi.
No, it could not possibly be seen as acceptance of a claim. Firstly, there is no claimant here. I am asking you a hypothetical question, and asking your opinion. You can even qualify your answer with "I can't speak for Randi, but in my opinion...." It would be crystal clear that this is in no way an acceptance of anything by the JREF.

I say no such thing.
Sure you do. You compound it in this very post! You say:
You simply don't get a reliable result in a lab.
Can't get much clearer than that!
 
It also doesn't look like scientific consensus that the polygraph is "pseudoscience".

If you want to point to some disagreeing that it is pseudoscience, then you are saying that it doesn't look like scientific consensus that Intelligent Design is "pseudoscience".

No, it could not possibly be seen as acceptance of a claim.

That is not for you to decide.

Sure you do. You compound it in this very post! You say:

Can't get much clearer than that!

I am talking about polygraphs and the inherent problems with creating and testing a real-life lie/no-lie situation in the lab, with the accompanying consequences of lying.
 
If you want to point to some disagreeing that it is pseudoscience, then you are saying that it doesn't look like scientific consensus that Intelligent Design is "pseudoscience".
No, not just "some disagreement". According to your quotes from the American Psychology Association, a "long-standing scientific disagreement". One that "within the behavioral sciences community, the polygraph is a controversial device that has often generated a polarizing reaction". A "This dichotomy of opinion [that] was most recently highlighted in a National Academy of Sciences National Research Council study"

It seems clear that there is no concensus on the polygraph, one way or the other.

That is not for you to decide.
Once again, Mr. Larsen, you display your intellectual dishonesty. You seem to be quite willing to lob aspersions on the polygraph from afar, but when asked for a simple answer to a pointed question, you simply do Claus Evasion Pattern Delta - that is up to someone else.

I am talking about polygraphs and the inherent problems with creating and testing a real-life lie/no-lie situation in the lab, with the accompanying consequences of lying.
It is just as hard to do a proper chakra cleansing in a lab, with the real life auras and no negative interference. You wouldn't accept this from ANY claimant - why are you putting it forward now?

Further, why do you have to properly simulate real world conditions? The lab test is for the underlying theory - which you have called pseudoscience.
 
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There may be some truth to the lie detector tests. Many atheists started out as believers and when taking the lie detector test past emotions may cause it to appear your not truthful.
 
No, not just "some disagreement". According to your quotes from the American Psychology Association, a "long-standing scientific disagreement". One that "within the behavioral sciences community, the polygraph is a controversial device that has often generated a polarizing reaction". A "This dichotomy of opinion [that] was most recently highlighted in a National Academy of Sciences National Research Council study"

It seems clear that there is no concensus on the polygraph, one way or the other.

If we are to use your argumentation, you think that the scientific community does not think that Intelligent Design is pseudoscience. You can't have it both ways.

Once again, Mr. Larsen, you display your intellectual dishonesty. You seem to be quite willing to lob aspersions on the polygraph from afar, but when asked for a simple answer to a pointed question, you simply do Claus Evasion Pattern Delta - that is up to someone else.

I don't care about your hand-wringing. You have to understand that when we talk about polygraphs being tested for JREF, it is quite another matter.

It is just as hard to do a proper chakra cleansing in a lab, with the real life auras and no negative interference. You wouldn't accept this from ANY claimant - why are you putting it forward now?

Further, why do you have to properly simulate real world conditions? The lab test is for the underlying theory - which you have called pseudoscience.

How will you invoke a real-life reaction in a lab? Where a lie has real-life consequences?
 
I don't care about your hand-wringing. You have to understand that when we talk about polygraphs being tested for JREF, it is quite another matter.
Ok, let's not talk about tests for JREF. If you were asked to design a protocol to test polygraphs, not for JREF, what success rate would you require to pass the test?
 
Ok, let's not talk about tests for JREF. If you were asked to design a protocol to test polygraphs, not for JREF, what success rate would you require to pass the test?

What are the claims? Who is making the claims?
 
What are the claims? Who is making the claims?

Sylvia Browne is claiming that she, using her psychic powers, a polygraph and a computer that will interpret the polygraph results, can correctly identified over 80% of naive subjects who are lying. .
 
Sylvia Browne is claiming that she, using her psychic powers, a polygraph and a computer that will interpret the polygraph results, can correctly identified over 80% of naive subjects who are lying. .

Where has she made this claim and expressed interest in being tested?
 
Where has she made this claim and expressed interest in being tested?

I guess you missed the If part of my original question, as in it's a hypothetical. Or do you refuse to answer questions based on a hypothetical claim?
 
If we are to use your argumentation, you think that the scientific community does not think that Intelligent Design is pseudoscience. You can't have it both ways.
Incorrect, and a strawman to boot. My argument is not that any disagreement whatsoever points to a lack of general concensus. Rather, a longstanding difference of opinion among various scientific experts in the field shows a lack of general concensus.

I don't care about your hand-wringing. You have to understand that when we talk about polygraphs being tested for JREF, it is quite another matter.
The problem is you don't talk about it at all. Not even to give an opinion. If you truly think that your opinion will have any binding effect on whether the JREF accepts a challenge, or whether a claimant can expect the JREF to accept a challenge, I suggest that you are delusional.

How will you invoke a real-life reaction in a lab? Where a lie has real-life consequences?
How far do you want to push those goal posts? My question to you was whether a polygrapher who claimed to detect falsehoods at a rate of 75 to 80 percent in lab conditions, based only on the readings from the machine, would qualify for the million. If the entire concept is 'pseudoscience' then the polygraph should fail, right?

Whether or not the idea can be adapted and controlled for real life situations is an altogether different question. As has been pointed out to you ad nauseum.
 

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