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Polygraphs: The evidence

He started this thread in an attempt to embarrass another member and thought it would be an easy effort but probably wasn't expecting so much data from various members to come out. He wasn't prepared to deal with it so instead he has gone off on this strange kick of repeatedly saying "present at TAM or write an article for Skeptic".

His style is slightly less annoying than a child saying "I know you are but what am I?"

I agree with Athon. There has been some good discussion in it though. It's a fascinating topic that deserves more than just a sarcastic "This is such a breakthrough! Present your evidence at TAM" reply.
 
He started this thread in an attempt to embarrass another member and thought it would be an easy effort but probably wasn't expecting so much data from various members to come out. He wasn't prepared to deal with it so instead he has gone off on this strange kick of repeatedly saying "present at TAM or write an article for Skeptic".

His style is slightly less annoying than a child saying "I know you are but what am I?"

I agree with Athon. There has been some good discussion in it though. It's a fascinating topic that deserves more than just a sarcastic "This is such a breakthrough! Present your evidence at TAM" reply.

I'm not saying there should only be a presentation at TAM.

Don't you want to see this discussed at TAM? Don't you want to see it discussed in skeptic magazines?
 
I'm not saying there should only be a presentation at TAM.

Don't you want to see this discussed at TAM? Don't you want to see it discussed in skeptic magazines?

I'm already seeing it being discussed here. This is one of the world's largest skeptical message boards. I'm seeing bright people go back and forth presenting evidence. I'm not qualified to contribute but I now feel more knowledgeable about polygraphs than I did yesterday. And not due to your contribution of "present it at TAM" but to reading what Dr. Kitten, digithead and others are posting.

If you are so eager for a TAM presentation you should consider putting one together yourself. There are skeptics that think the polygraph may have some merit. You can address this and present your evidence to the contrary. You think people are making a false claim so counter it at TAM like Lancaster countered psychic claims at TAM. Will you present this at TAM?
 
I'm already seeing it being discussed here. This is one of the world's largest skeptical message boards. I'm seeing bright people go back and forth presenting evidence. I'm not qualified to contribute but I now feel more knowledgeable about polygraphs than I did yesterday. And not due to your contribution of "present it at TAM" but to reading what Dr. Kitten, digithead and others are posting.

If you are so eager for a TAM presentation you should consider putting one together yourself. There are skeptics that think the polygraph may have some merit. You can address this and present your evidence to the contrary. You think people are making a false claim so counter it at TAM like Lancaster countered psychic claims at TAM. Will you present this at TAM?

First, let's get one thing straight. Polygraphs are considered pseudoscience. They have been for quite some time. Randi, Shermer, Wiseman, Carroll, they all agree. I do, too. It is not up to me to present the case as if it is something new that polygraphs are pseudoscience. That would be to fool the audience.

If someone disagrees, then it is up to them to present their evidence. Skeptigirl disagrees that polygraphs are not pseudoscience. If she attends TAM, she has an obligation to present her evidence.

If anyone wants to stand up at TAM and say "Polygraphs are not pseudoscience", I would love to hear it.
 
First, let's get one thing straight. Polygraphs are considered pseudoscience. They have been for quite some time. Randi, Shermer, Wiseman, Carroll, they all agree. I do, too.

If appeals to authority and repeating "present at TAM" are the best you can do then I'm not going to waste any more time with you. I'd rather keep reading the interesting points the other posters in this thread are making.
 
It is claimed that a polygraph can distinguish between a nervous response to a question and a lie. Anyone willing to explain how that can be done outside laboratory conditions when you don't know the correct answer to your question?
 
If appeals to authority and repeating "present at TAM" are the best you can do then I'm not going to waste any more time with you. I'd rather keep reading the interesting points the other posters in this thread are making.

I'm not saying that this is the best "I" can do.

But really: Why is it so abhorrent to you that this issue is discussed at TAM? Why confine the discussion to this thread alone?

Why not throw it out to the top skeptics at the biggest skeptical assembly in the known universe?

It is claimed that a polygraph can distinguish between a nervous response to a question and a lie. Anyone willing to explain how that can be done outside laboratory conditions when you don't know the correct answer to your question?

That is one of the questions I will be asking some TAM attendees.
 
I'm not saying there should only be a presentation at TAM.

Don't you want to see this discussed at TAM? Don't you want to see it discussed in skeptic magazines?

Then write an article yourself. Summarize the findings of the quoted reports and the points made here by those in the threads talking about the statistics and then write your response.

It would be twice as good -- you could present both sides.

I believe that you know the guy editing skeptic report, so you could even guarantee getting it online; and then present it at TAM. You have a few months to do it, and this topic is BIG. It is absolutely crucial that someone put a paper together at TAM. This isn't about who's burden of proof it is -- this is important. This is big. This is far too big to let the subject remain undiscussed in skeptic magazines and TAM, according to you. Will you step up?

Will you do it?
 
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If appeals to authority and repeating "present at TAM" are the best you can do then I'm not going to waste any more time with you. I'd rather keep reading the interesting points the other posters in this thread are making.

Oh, he tried that same tactic (present at TAM) with me on another thread. And I agree with Athon and the majority opinion regarding Claus. He's transparent. What is ironic is that his arch enemy of late (The Atheist) has done the same straw man thread thing in the past in an effort to supposedly make a point and embarrass another poster.

To me, certain people seldom make sense--they just always seem to be trying to win points in some entirely different conversation than the one everybody else is having. The more you try to clarify the more you get sucked into the crazy.

It drives Claus crazy when I talk about him--especially since I have him on ignore. But he drives other people crazy and has said some vile things about me, so I think he deserves it. Besides, I do want to support the people who are having problems with him, so they don't wonder if it's them. The socially obtuse, never seem to recognize that they are the problem while everyone else wonders if something they said was misinterpreted (as noted in my sig.)

But this thread has lots of good info... so Claus does inspire good conversations even if he doesn't ever seem to really participate in them himself.

It is interesting to know what polygraphs do. Scientologists use "e-meters" for clearing which are similar to polygraphs except they only measure one portion of what lie detectors measure--galvanic skin responses...

Polygraphs aren't mind readers, and I doubt "belief" is measurable for multiple reasons (this thread sprang from Mayday's thread regarding 80% of atheists showing up as believers...) but they aren't woo-- they do measure things associated with stress -- they are in essence, "stress detectors"--
and they are becoming more refined and useful over time.

I think one way the "calibrate" lie detectors is to tell people to answer no to every question... and then they ask them if various dates are their birthday. When they say the actual birthday, and the person responds no, there is usually a reaction noted that can be compared to all the other times the person said no.
 
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When I say it doesn't work, I mean that it doesn't work consistently.

Yes. That not only means you're misrepresenting, but you're actively lying, since you know that you're misrepresenting.

You have to separate out utility of the polygraph from its validity and accuracy. The NAS said that the CQT polygraph has utility in that it might deter spies and possibly catch a few but it has little validity and its accuracy cannot be reliably estimated. They actually refused to state an accuracy number. The one they use in their calculations (80%) is a hypothetical and they do not believe that CQT polygraph has very high accuracy.

Except that they cite the accuracy numbers estimated from the metaanalysis in the range of 0.81 to 0.91 repeatedly throughout the report.

I think this qualifies as another lie.


You and I have read the same NAS report and have come to differing conclusions about its accuracy, validity, and utility. That's fine. I really don't understand how anyone can read the NAS report and come away thinking that CQT polygraph was useful, accurate or grounded in science

That's easy. Because the NAS cites compelling evidence that it is.

If you had asked me about polygraphs before I started researching them, I probably would have parrotted CFLarsen. The positive report that the NAS gave to the polygraph is one of the single most influential pieces of evidence that changed my mind.

I'm astonished that anyone can read a report where the NAS goes out of its way, not once, but about six times, including stressing in both the report's conclusion and its executive summary, that polygraph testing can distinguish lies from the truth with better than chance accuracy and conclude that they do not believe that polygraphs work.


However, you can't argue that the NAS concluded that reliance on CQT polygraph in screening applications is unwise and poses a threat to national security. If the CQT polygraph was so useful, why do you think they draw such a conclusion?

Because those are two independent questions; one is whether the technology works at all, and the other is whether the technology works robustly enough to be applicable to specific problems. The NAS clearly separates those questions and answers them "yes" and "no" respectively (where the specific problem is screening, of course).

That's no different than someone asking "if hybrid technology works, why don't we see hybrid heavy goods vehicles?" Just because something works or is useful does not mean it's universallly useful.

Finally, given what you've read so far, which do you think is better, GKT or CQT?

Better for what? I agree that GKT is almost certainly a more promising line of research and may produce better polygraphs in the future; it has a better theoretical model, and there are some claims of better performance in the lab. However, CQT has a much longer track record and a much longer and better-documented history of positive evidence behind it. CQT is much more mature technology and there are much clearer protocols defining how to use it.

If you need a polygraph today to investigate an incident that happened last week, I would recommend CQT -- for one thing, you will be able to find a CQT-trained polygraph operator in almost any major metropolitan area, and the equipment is immediately available. If you are trying to build a polygraph/forensics consultation firm, I would recommend a mixture, leaning initially to CQT as that's what the clientele will be expecting you to use (and will find more persuasive in your reports), and educate your clients about the advantages of GKT over time (as more data comes in). If you are trying to build a polygraph research lab, then GKT is a promising technology and you will be in a position to develop the protocols and track record you need within your lab.

It's the difference between research-quality products and commercial-quality products. iBM has designs (in the lab) for computer chips that can run at a zillion teraHertz and use no power whatsoever -- but those designs are produced on ordinary Intel-based computers, because even IBM doesn't trust the new technology enough to rely on the research machines to do any actual work. CQT is a functional technology with some serious limitations in application; GKT at this point is barely out of vaporware. I like it. It looks nice. It looks elegant. Ask me again in ten years if it looks useful.
 
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Yes. That not only means you're misrepresenting, but you're actively lying, since you know that you're misrepresenting.
Sigh, ironically enough for this thread, I did not lie nor did I misrepresent. My view of the evidence is different than yours.

Except that they cite the accuracy numbers estimated from the metaanalysis in the range of 0.81 to 0.91 repeatedly throughout the report.

I think this qualifies as another lie.
Now who's misrepresenting? The NAS did not give a summary number of accuracy. They did not give one because they were concerned that it would appear to be an endorsement of the polygraph when they expressly wanted to avoid that (see Fienberg, et al 2005 Statistical Science article I cited earlier). They also believed that the variability present in the studies they did use to be nonrandom and that all of the studies they used probably overestimated real accuracy (Ibid).

That's easy. Because the NAS cites compelling evidence that it is.
I suggest that you reread the NAS report again, because the evidence in there is less than compelling.

To quote Fienberg et al (2005: 12) again: "It may be harmless if television fails to discriminate between science and science fiction, but it is dangerous when government does not know the difference." They go on to say that the science does not support the contention that the CQT polygraph could have any degree of high accuracy.

If you had asked me about polygraphs before I started researching them, I probably would have parrotted CFLarsen. The positive report that the NAS gave to the polygraph is one of the single most influential pieces of evidence that changed my mind.

If that's what counts as positive evidence for you, you have a very low threshold.

I'm astonished that anyone can read a report where the NAS goes out of its way, not once, but about six times, including stressing in both the report's conclusion and its executive summary, that polygraph testing can distinguish lies from the truth with better than chance accuracy and conclude that they do not believe that polygraphs work.

You have left out the most important part of their conclusion about CQT: That it is for specific incidents only. They also said that lab-based accuracy estimates overestimate accuracy for specific incidents and that estimates from field studies also overestimate accuracy because of sampling and measurement bias...

Once again, in specific incidents, the CQT format approaches its theoretically sound cousin, the GKT...

Because those are two independent questions; one is whether the technology works at all, and the other is whether the technology works robustly enough to be applicable to specific problems. The NAS clearly separates those questions and answers them "yes" and "no" respectively (where the specific problem is screening, of course).

We have a different definition of what "works" is...

That's no different than someone asking "if hybrid technology works, why don't we see hybrid heavy goods vehicles?" Just because something works or is useful does not mean it's universallly useful.

I agree.

Better for what? I agree that GKT is almost certainly a more promising line of research and may produce better polygraphs in the future; it has a better theoretical model, and there are some claims of better performance in the lab. However, CQT has a much longer track record and a much longer and better-documented history of positive evidence behind it. CQT is much more mature technology and there are much clearer protocols defining how to use it.

It already does produce "better results."

More mature? You need to do more research. The GKT was developed by Lykken in the late 50s as an outgrowth of similar research performed in the 40s; the CQT replaced the Relevant/Irrelevant test about the same time. The reason that CQT became more prevalent is that GKT requires more work on the part of the polygrapher, not because it was better.

And just because something has been around awhile doesn't make it better.

Clearer protocols? How do I begin? You do know that in CQT polygraph, it is expected that the subject will lie to a comparison question, right? So if the polygrapher picks the wrong comparison question (e.g. the person is truthful to it), then its results are wrong. How is this more mature and better than a test designed to avoid false positives?

If you need a polygraph today to investigate an incident that happened last week, I would recommend CQT -- for one thing, you will be able to find a CQT-trained polygraph operator in almost any major metropolitan area, and the equipment is immediately available. If you are trying to build a polygraph/forensics consultation firm, I would recommend a mixture, leaning initially to CQT as that's what the clientele will be expecting you to use (and will find more persuasive in your reports), and educate your clients about the advantages of GKT over time (as more data comes in). If you are trying to build a polygraph research lab, then GKT is a promising technology and you will be in a position to develop the protocols and track record you need within your lab.

I wholeheartedly disagree...

Plus there's the whole 1988 Federal Employee Polygraph Protection Act which bars its use in employment with exceptions for law enforcement and national security agencies.

It's the difference between research-quality products and commercial-quality products. iBM has designs (in the lab) for computer chips that can run at a zillion teraHertz and use no power whatsoever -- but those designs are produced on ordinary Intel-based computers, because even IBM doesn't trust the new technology enough to rely on the research machines to do any actual work. CQT is a functional technology with some serious limitations in application; GKT at this point is barely out of vaporware. I like it. It looks nice. It looks elegant. Ask me again in ten years if it looks useful.

Sigh, did you read the NAS part about the woeful state of CQT polygraph research?

Sigh, have you done any research into the state of GKT application? It's widely used in Japanese law enforcement.

As for usefulness of the GKT, see Ben-Shakhar and Elaad. 2003. The Validity of Psychophysiological Detection of Information With the Guilty Knowledge Test: A Meta-Analytic Review. Journal of Applied Psychology 88(1):131–151.

Since it's obvious that there's no way I'm going to change your mind, I'll give up on the dueling quotations/citations and implore you to continue to do research into the matter with the hope that maybe you'll actually change your mind...

Regards...
 
Then write an article yourself. Summarize the findings of the quoted reports and the points made here by those in the threads talking about the statistics and then write your response.

It would be twice as good -- you could present both sides.

I believe that you know the guy editing skeptic report, so you could even guarantee getting it online; and then present it at TAM. You have a few months to do it, and this topic is BIG. It is absolutely crucial that someone put a paper together at TAM. This isn't about who's burden of proof it is -- this is important. This is big. This is far too big to let the subject remain undiscussed in skeptic magazines and TAM, according to you. Will you step up?

Will you do it?

I'm not convinced that the polygraphs work.

That's easy. Because the NAS cites compelling evidence that it is.

If you had asked me about polygraphs before I started researching them, I probably would have parrotted CFLarsen. The positive report that the NAS gave to the polygraph is one of the single most influential pieces of evidence that changed my mind.

I'm astonished that anyone can read a report where the NAS goes out of its way, not once, but about six times, including stressing in both the report's conclusion and its executive summary, that polygraph testing can distinguish lies from the truth with better than chance accuracy and conclude that they do not believe that polygraphs work.

So how do you explain that this "compelling evidence" is not enough to persuade the scientific community?

'nother slight derail...

Does anybody get their information about science from skeptic magazines?

Some of it. I read something in some magazines and dig deeper in other areas.

I think that's pretty normal.
 
So how do you explain that this "compelling evidence" is not enough to persuade the scientific community?

Easy. The "scientific community" is larger than you (and digithead). The much larger part of the scientific community, the part that includes the NAS and the funding agencies, is sufficiently convinced of the scientific merit of polygraphy to write reports strongly positive of how they work under controlled conditions, to continue to publish extensively reports of such experiments reporting positively on their accuracy, and perhaps more importantly to continue funding the incremental development of the technology at a substantial rate (see, for example, funding opportunity W911NF-06-R-0009).

In short, I dispute the claim that the scientific community at large is not persuaded. If it weren't, do you think that digithead would even have a mainstream journal to present his findings in?
 
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Easy. The "scientific community" is larger than you (and digithead). The much larger part of the scientific community, the part that includes the NAS and the funding agencies, is sufficiently convinced of the scientific merit of polygraphy to write reports strongly positive of how they work under controlled conditions, to continue to publish extensively reports of such experiments reporting positively on their accuracy, and perhaps more importantly to continue funding the incremental development of the technology at a substantial rate (see, for example, funding opportunity W911NF-06-R-0009).

In short, I dispute the claim that the scientific community at large is not persuaded. If it weren't, do you think that digithead would even have a mainstream journal to present his findings in?

I don't why I'm responding but I'll give you one more quote from the main authors of the NAS study. From Feinberg et al (2005: 22):

At the outset, we explained the seemingly compelling desire for a device that can assist law enforcement and intelligence agencies to identify criminals, spies, and saboteurs when direct evidence is lacking. The polygraph has long been touted as such a device. In this article and in the NRC report on which it draws, we explain the limited scientific basis for its use, the deep uncertainty about its level of accuracy, and the fragility of the evidence supporting claims of accuracy in any realistic application.

How should society and the courts in particular react to such a situation? At a minimum they should be wary about the claimed validity of the polygraph and its alternatives for use in the myriad settings in which they are used or proposed for use. This is especially relevant to current forensic uses of the polygraph. We believe that the courts have been justifed in casting a skeptical eye on the relevance and suitability of polygraph test results as legal evidence. Generalizing from the available scientifc evidence to the circumstances of a particular polygraph examination is fraught with difficulty. Further, the courts should extend their reluctance to rely upon the polygraph to the many quasi-forensic uses that are emerging, such as in sex offender management programs (see the discussion in Faigman, Fienberg and Stern [4]). The courts and the legal system should not act
as if there is a scientific basis for many, if any, of these uses. They need to hear the truth about lie detection.

Bolding is mine. This doesn't seem positive to me...
 
Easy. The "scientific community" is larger than you (and digithead). The much larger part of the scientific community, the part that includes the NAS and the funding agencies, is sufficiently convinced of the scientific merit of polygraphy to write reports strongly positive of how they work under controlled conditions, to continue to publish extensively reports of such experiments reporting positively on their accuracy, and perhaps more importantly to continue funding the incremental development of the technology at a substantial rate (see, for example, funding opportunity W911NF-06-R-0009).

In short, I dispute the claim that the scientific community at large is not persuaded. If it weren't, do you think that digithead would even have a mainstream journal to present his findings in?

What rate is that?
 
A cold can affect the test?

Have the physiological conditions of a cold which affect the test been identified? If so, are they unique to that condition?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that a number of variables, which cannot be reliably controlled, can affect the accuracy of the test. If so, it makes me wonder how its use can be justified in any context. Does anyone other than those looking for a simplistic solution to a complex problem (the feds, corps.,etc.) really advocate that an individual be sanctioned for "failing" this test?

But wouldn't the presence of these affecting factors be taken into consideration during the control phase ?
 
Present that at TAM, and/or write an article for Skeptic Magazine.



I think it is extremely important that you present a paper at TAM.

It won't have to be a huge presentation. Just a few slides, a brief paragraph or two, and some references. I suspect that the questions that invariably will follow might take some time. But that's what you can expect, when you make such a claim.

This is big, skeptigirl. Scientific evidence that polygraphs work! This is exactly what makes TAM so great!

You know what to expect. You have months to prepare. Should be a walk in the park.

Will you do it?

Say, Claus. Do polygraphs perform better than chance ?
 
What rate is that?

The exact sums are classified, as you might expect. However, the Department of Defense Polygraph Institute routinely gives grants to universities on the order of US $300,000 per year -- and is specificlaly focused, as you might expect, on polygraph technology. More broadly, the NSF/CMI has a specific program dedicated to the identification of non-verbal cues to deception (I could probably dig up the total fund for that, since NSF numbers are not classified, but I won't bother). I believe there there were several tens of millions of dollars of NIJ funding offered a few years back as well (2005?), but I can't find the solicitation as it is no longer active and they do not publish past solicitations as the NSF does.
 

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