Police handcuffing 5-year-old

Cleopatra said:
Maybe I am but this doesn't answer my question that I kindly asked you.

Would you eat dog meat? You are not obliged to answer but I would appreciate it if you did.

I won't answer here, as your forey into asking if I would eat dog meat apparently has nothing to do with the current topic of cuffs and the 5 year old girl.

Feel free to PM or email me that question, and I will respond, and I'm sure you'll devestatingly connect my response to the topic somehow..
 
Grammatron said:
I am curious to see where this is going so I will answer "yes."

Thanks for answering to my question. I wouldn't eat dog meat although it wouldn't harm me if I did.

The picture with the child that is leashed like a dog is like dog meat to some of us.

We would never eat it although it wouldn't harm our health if we did.

I don't know why we have to be mocked for that maybe you can explain to me where the joke is hiding.
 
jzs said:
I won't answer here, as your forey into asking if I would eat dog meat apparently has nothing to do with the current topic of cuffs and the 5 year old girl.

Feel free to PM or email me that question, and I will respond, and I'm sure you'll devestatingly connect my response to the topic somehow..

I wonder how much time it took you to compose something that I am sure that you consider as a succesful token of irony and it makes you feel very proud of yourself.

If I have offered such poor "services" to this debate your irony is really refreshing and educative as to how debates should be conducted.

Anyway.

I feel that there is a joke in the picture with the kid on a leash that I fail to grasp. *Maybe* due to cultural reason I cannot get the joke and maybe this is the reason why some of us found the handcuffing odd-- to say the least.
 
Cleopatra said:
Thanks for answering to my question. I wouldn't eat dog meat although it wouldn't harm me if I did.

The picture with the child that is leashed like a dog is like dog meat to some of us.

We would never eat it although it wouldn't harm our health if we did.

I don't know why we have to be mocked for that maybe you can explain to me where the joke is hiding.

Well the "leashed" child was a non sequitor really but it seems to me the opposite is being done. And the response given is purely emotional mascaraded as logical one.

There was no demonstrated physical or another harm done. I don't see how that's stratched into 15 pages but there you go.
 
Cleopatra said:
I wonder how much time it took you to compose something that I am sure that you consider as a succesful token of irony and it makes you feel very proud of yourself.

If I have offered such poor "services" to this debate your irony is really refreshing and educative as to how debates should be conducted.

More off topic stuff.

Sure you're not Claus's sock?
 
Grammatron said:
Well the "leashed" child was a non sequitor really but it seems to me the opposite is being done. And the response given is purely emotional mascaraded as logical one.

Pure skeptics applying mind reading... Nah that's too easy for me.

No you are wrong. I don't need to masquerade anything, it's not my style. I tried to demonstrate to Justin that what you make fun of in order to make a point-- the leashed kid in the pic that is-- becomes an opposite point to some of us and maybe this is because of cultural differences. Where I live for example we use identical leashes only to dogs and not to kids.

There was no demonstrated physical or another harm done. I don't see how that's stratched into 15 pages but there you go.
I have never EVER claimed physical damage. On the contrary. The thread was stratched into 15 pages because it seems that some people tend to bring past unresolved issues to other threads.

Now I have to go read crimeresearch links. I feel that I have missed something life-changing.
 
Now that Claus' and other woo-woo apologists are crumpling like a cheap suit in the rain, I predict that some new attack sock puppet will come into this thread and attempt to distract everyone from the painfully obvious truth that skeptics can operate in a better and more productive manner than the irrational games of woos.


This could be a defining moment for JREF, and I would encourage skeptics to keep on doing what they have been doing in this thread... stick to rational requests, and not get drawn into debate tactic distractions.


Perhaps if the mods care to notice who is engaging in name calling, and who is sticking to discourse, they may relent and re-open the Critical Thinking forum.
 
jzs said:
More off topic stuff.

Sure you're not Claus's sock?

This is childish and you'd better come to your senses immediately.

I refuse to participate in this kind of discussion. You can do better than that. When you decide to discuss let me know.
 
Apart from future tellers we have posters that apply stalinist methods by attributing to other posters --vaguely-- attitudes and ideas that they have never posted.

It must be a 50ies generation thing.
 
Cleopatra said:
You know, an hour ago I was thinking that maybe the outrage was caused by the fact that we say the policemen treating a child as an adult and this is what shocked us.

In my case, that is exactly correct. I don't think it is appropriate to treat a five year old as if she were a dangerous felon. The handcuffs themselves don't bother me. The fact that she had to be handed over to police bothers me.
 
Cleopatra said:

I feel that there is a joke in the picture with the kid on a leash that I fail to grasp. *Maybe* due to cultural reason I cannot get the joke and maybe this is the reason why some of us found the handcuffing odd-- to say the least.

It's not that hard. The joke relates to what c0rbin's been saying. The kiddie leash is a form of restraint. It's not all that common, (I think they were moderately popular in the late 80s/early 90s.) and a bit weird, maybe even out of "normal" usage nowadays.

The kid doesn't seem to be physically harmed by the device.

Yet, Claus is maintaining another form of passive restraint (you know, handcuffs) is causing physical harm to children strictly by its use.

That's the joke. It's not very funny when I spell it out.

edited to remove multiple "yet"s
 
Cleopatra said:
This is childish and you'd better come to your senses immediately.

I refuse to participate in this kind of discussion. You can do better than that. When you decide to discuss let me know.

I'd rather stay on topic, like ask people if they eat various kinds of animals, because that has a lot to do with the girl and handcuffs...

Keep getting farther away from the topic.. typical retreat, eh?
 
I posted this on the 11th page:
LW said:
Unfortunately, I predict that you will continue asserting your claims and refuse to offer any proof with more substance that "it is obvious", and continue to do so as long as anyone bothers to answer.

Do I win the million dollar prize?
 
CFLarsen said:
Wake me if something new happens.
The ball is in your court sparky. Untill you provide some evidence then there can't be anything new. You have made a claim and it is up to you to support that claim.
 
LegalPenguin said:
Yeah, they's just grab the kid, or maybe beat the crap out of her, or some other solution that presents a risk of harm. Who knows.

Any time restraints are applied, of whatever sort, whether it is by hand or by handcuffs, there is a small risk of injury. It happens, especially when people, including children, resist the application of restraints. Should children never, therefore, be restrained? I think all of us would agree that such a policy would be foolish. Children must, in some cases, be restrained. If anyone disagrees, let him speak up. We need some more non-parents to ridicule.

OK. So if they have to be restrained, how should they be restrained? Clearly, the prevailing opinion is that the form of restraint should minimize the risk of injury. Correct? That is the prevailing opinion, is it not?

Well, it isn't my opinion.

The chance of injuring the child by "just grabbing her" is very, very, small. It is larger than the chance of injury posed by applying handcuffs, but it is still very small.

In my opinion, the type of restraint used should be the most effective form that poses an acceptable risk of injury. In the case of dealing with small children "acceptable" is very low indeed. However, "just grabbing her" would be well within my threshold of acceptable risk. If there were a significant risk of danger from grabbing children, most of our own children would never have made it to school age.

My outrage at this incident is not aimed at the application of handcuffs. My outrage at this situation is at the failure to apply more effective means earlier. I am outraged that an entire classroom full of kids was emptied because no one could "just grab her" and force her to stop. If she failed to stop when reasonable force was applied, then she could have been removed.

Would this have resulted in greater risk of injury? Yes it would have, but the risk would still have been very, very, small. In my youth, I saw this happen on a number of occaisions, and I can't recall any resulting injuries. I'm not saying they never happened, but they were very, very, rare.

This kid was allowed to shut down an entire classroom because there was a 0.01% chance that an injury would result from "just grabbing her". Of course, most of those injuries would be bruises. In all but bizarre cases, a dislocated shoulder would be the worst that could come about. (I obviously made up the number, but I think I could grab 10,000 kids and only hurt one of them. Maybe not. Maybe only 1,000, so 0.1%, but see below.)

Do people really care about probabilities that small? I don't think so. So what are they afraid of? They are afraid of that "expert witness" testifying in court that the rash actions of a teacher created the possibility that the child could have been harmed. And schools are so afraid of this possibility that they put policies in place that prevent effective measures to stop this behavior.

Furthermore, it should be emphasized that those policies don't even minimize the risk of injury. While that child is running about, breaking things, and climbing on furniture, her risk of injury is higher than if she were restrained by somebody "just grabbing her". However, what those policies minimize is the risk of injury caused by school officials. If they do nothing, they are less likely to be accused of causing her injury, or of taking an action that might have caused an injury.

As for "beating the crap out of her", that has never been allowed in my lifetime, unless you count paddling in that category. If a teacher "beats the crap out of"a student, in my opinion the appropriate response is to fire the teacher, and press charges if appropriate. Instead, what would probably happen, in addition to those things, would be that the school district would be sued. So, an unruly child causes an unstable teacher to finally lose it, and do something he shouldn't and the consequence in America is that the classmates of the unruly child would lose some of their educational opportunities, because the money that could have been used to hire a replacement teacher went to the family of the unruly student.


It makes them take these situations seriously and develop sane policies, like not having teachers physically accost small children without proper training, or not building a compact car where the gas tank is placed so it will explode if you are rear-ended...

When I was growing up, teachers were trained in such areas as math and history. They had a fairly intutive grasp of how to accost small children, without the need for specialized training. I can't see the modern situation as an improvement.
 
CFLarsen said:
But you don't use handcuffs for your children to restrain them, do you?
Claus Larsen Logic --If you don't do it then it must be wrong.
  • If you don't do something then it must be wrong.
  • If you do Something then it must be right.
  • Because why else would you do it?
Good Larsen, real good.

Person A: I'm not sure if there is a god.

Person B: Do you pray to god?

Person A: Yes I do.

Person B: There ya go. God exists.
 
RandFan said:
Do you mean irrespective or regardless?

--------------------------------

Since you brought it up, and I ain't any linguistics major...pick the one that suits you.:D
 
BPSCG said:
Yeah, you were saying that last October, too, but you went and voted for Kerry anyway... :D

I know, but I did vote GOP at state and local level, where educational issues are more important.

I just couldn't bring myself to not vote against W.
 
Diogenes said:
You are apparently totally ignorant of the restraints under which the staff of U.S. government schools operate.:rolleyes:

----------------------------------

I guess I must be, huh...since *I* went to a public school and the worst *we* ever had happen is our waddles got paddled, in a humiliating fashion, in front of all the cachortling (dont' bother to look it up in the dictionary) high school guys in gym class.
 

Back
Top Bottom