Police handcuffing 5-year-old

[CFLarsen]

Not my understanding from watching the video tape but I could be wrong. Could you show this? In any event then why did you offer your "solution"? And I'm not at all convinced that this still would not have made the airwaves and people would want to know why this girl was {gasp} locked in the principles office?

Read. The. Article.

 

[RandFan]

If you are not an expert, why do you think you are entitled to tell people that they are wrong?

That's the whole frigging point. I DON'T. I'm asking why the outrage and can you please provide evidence? I don't think visceral responses are a good form of critical thinking, hell I don't think they are a form of critical thinking at all.

 

[jj]

It is not what we are discussing. I would not try to reason with her, she wasn't hungry, and she was 5.

Perhaps not. It is interesting that you can state that with such force and certainty (the hungry part, of course, I'm well aware that this particular person was reported to be 5).

It seems to me that all on this thread (no matter what "side") are seriously into being insulted here.

I'm not even speaking to Crim, you notice.

And, of course, now days there are many schools where closets are constructed so as to not fit a person inside under any circumstances, at least in the USA, thanks to the Michaels case and other witch hunts. (N.B. Not all such cases are witch hunts, but when you have forced questioning, suggestions of answers to 4yr olds, and no evidence of the missing "murdered" children who were involved in the "satanistic rituals", etc ...)

 

[CFLarsen]

Actually no, you have ignored questions and posts. THAT is demonstrable.

Will you start reading what people actually post?

Kodiak said "any questions". That is demonstrably false.

It is highly disruptive that you keep misreading what people write. Please try to do better.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Will you start reading what people actually post?

Kodiak said "any questions". That is demonstrably false.

It is highly disruptive that you keep misreading what people write. Please try to do better.

So you're NOT going to answer my question, and say what the physical harm to the child was?

 

[specious_reasons]

I did not claim to be an expert. My solution solved the problem, without violence or intervention from the police.

Maybe that's why some people don't like it.

I was pointed to this thread from elsewhere and have read through it.

I think that your solution would have worked for a normal child throwing a nasty tantrum. There seems to be evidence that this is not a normal child, and this was a particularly nasty tantrum.

I'll try to relate a story: My 2 1/2 year old son is willful and independent. When I go into a place where I don't have a child seat to put him in, I have 2 choices, I either let my explore or hold him and let him have a fit. Sometimes these fits will involve him struggling to break free from me. Being too young to think about it hard enough, he will usually struggle without regard to his own safety. It is sometimes difficult to restrain him while I'm moving, and he weighs less than 30 pounds.

I doubt that this girl was very concerned about her own safety during her tantrum. She would be stronger and heavier than my son. Trying to move her against her will has a distinct potential for physical harm. Not as her parent, would you be willing to take that risk? I probably would only take that risk for someone else's child if there were a clear and present danger to the child.

 

[RandFan]

Read. The. Article.

Ok, it was your claim but I have learned that you won't prove your claims. So I read the article AGAIN. Not once does it support your claim. It only says:

As St. Petersburg police officers arrived shortly after 3 p.m., the girl suddenly sat quietly at Dibenedetto's table. And, just as suddenly, the tactics used by educators gave way to the more direct approach of law enforcement.

It also says:

Later, Ottersbach retrieved the camera from the classroom when the girl began to make a mess of Dibenedetto's office.

 

[RandFan]

Also from the article:

Video shows police handcuffing 5-year-old

The Times interviewed several top educators, including two district officials who had seen the video and two professors at the University of South Florida's College of Education.

All praised Dibenedetto for using patience and good training in a tough situation. They said she gave the girl wide latitude to opt for better behavior, used clear commands, called for help from another educator, removed the other students from the room for their safety and to eliminate an audience for the girl, reinforced commands with hand motions and successfully avoided physical confrontation.

Touching the girl, they said, would have escalated the situation.

The two educators "can't control what the children do, but they can control how they respond to it and, to me, they responded admirably," said Robert Egley, an assistant education professor at USF in St. Petersburg. "I give them an A-plus."

 

[RandFan]

Will you start reading what people actually post?

Kodiak said "any questions". That is demonstrably false.

It is highly disruptive that you keep misreading what people write. Please try to do better.

BFD, you answer a question or two. Show me one question I did not respond to. Unlike you I take responses to me seriously. You ignore those you find uncomfortable.

 

[Kodiak]

Related Story: Battery Against Adults by Schoolchildren on the Rise

"He acknowledged the unusual nature of the arrest, but said: "Our policy very clearly gives officers the discretion to use handcuffs or other restraining devices for juveniles, regardless of their age if they are unruly or showing the propensity for violence." An officer used handcuffs on the girl's ankles because she was kicking him in the car, he said.

"Is it safer to put them in handcuffs and seat belt them in the back seat of a cruiser with an officer watching? Or is it better to physically struggle with the child?"

 

[CFLarsen]

BFD, you answer a question or two.

That is a lie.

 

[CFLarsen]

That's the whole frigging point. I DON'T.

Oh, yes you do. Constantly:

That is simply emotional and only an opinion. You are entitled to it but you are wrong.

My opinion is that you are wrong. Got it?

My opinion is that he is wrong...

We should just "understand". But that is just wrong.

Wrong, we simply wanted to know why we should be outraged.

That is why it is wrong to assume that it would solve anything.

 

[CFLarsen]

Ok, it was your claim but I have learned that you won't prove your claims. So I read the article AGAIN. Not once does it support your claim.

She was at the principal's office. Could she leave when she wanted to? Just yes or no.

 

[Kodiak]

That is a lie.

O.K., three or four?

 

[RandFan]

Who?

Dr. Harvey Karp, a pediatrician and child development expert at the UCLA School of Medicine

I'm still trying to find the interview. The only thing I can find so far is: Karp said when the 5-year-old Florida girl jumped on the assistant principal's desk, the principal kept taking her down. That was the right thing to do, he said.

Tips on Disciplining a Misbehaving Child

 

[TragicMonkey]

She was definitely harmed physically. If you are not convinced, then you are not convinced.

Please explain where the physical harm was. Bruises? Circulation problems? Allergy to steel? Wrenched shoulder? Skin abrasions?

Or are you making a claim, refusing to provide evidence, and ignoring all requests to do so?

In thread after thread after thread, you have insisted that people provide evidence for their claims. I invite you, for the third time, do so yourself. Give details of the physical harm suffered by the child, or admit that you were making a claim without evidence.

 

[crimresearch]

I'm sorry Rand, there is so much tapdancing and obfuscation going on in this thread, I'm afraid i might not have heard you...

Did you say that the people in the article cited claimed that :

Touching the girl would have escalated the situation.?

Or did they say that:

They were waiting for some guy from Denmark to tell them how to handle the girl, but he never called?

 

[RandFan]

Oh, yes you do. Constantly:

This is disengenuous. As it relates to EXPERT OPINION! I'm absolutely entitled to offer my opinion as to when someone is wrong. Please have the intelectual honesty to note that your quotes of mine use the word opinion unless something is DEMONSTRABLY WRONG!

 

[RandFan]

She was at the principal's office. Could she leave when she wanted to? Just yes or no.

Based upon watching the video I would have to say yes. When she wanted to go somewhere she did. The best the women could do was try to block her and that was not always successful. Would you not agree, just say yes or no?

 

[RandFan]

If you are not an expert, why do you think you are entitled to tell people that they are wrong?

{sigh}

• As it relates to matters that require expert opinion I am not entitled to tell people that they are wrong beyond my inexpert opinion.
  
• I am entitled to an opinion and I am entitled to believe that others are wrong. I'm entitled to let them know that opinion. It is called FREE SPEECH. It is my responsibility IMO to tell them it is simply my opinion.
  
• If someone says that the sky is NOT blue I am entitled to tell them that the sky IS blue.