Police and Psychics

[KelvinG]

Larsen, you'll remember is the idiot who kept on, and on, and on posting stupid, completely irrelevant lists of questions I have never made any claim on, yet the oaf eventually posted this:

"Should I think you have an obligation to answer to each and every question ever put, even though you never made any claim at all?

Be fair, now." - CFLarsen

I asked for Larsen to present only questions on claims he could attribute quotes to me for. Guess what? He clammed.
You'll see in 'Q for Lucianarchy thread' that not only did I give a full text answers containing references, sources etc, I went on to answer *another*, then just one *more, then *another*... polite and cooperative throughout. As a result TLN *then* demands to know where I was when I read a document - 'one more little question' - not only is that sort of tripe transparent for its sophistry, it is irrelevant to whether he can or will examine the data for himself, from the *source*, as a skeptic must. To make matters worse, and confirm for me the lesson not to be drawn into these trollish games by the like of TLN, he invents a claim to put in my mouth, one of most dispicable of acts which earns instant dismissal from my attention. He has access to previous forum archives, he knows he can get them from Larsen, but he doesn't, he can't because these "claims" don't exist, he feels a fool, so he behaves like a dishonest twat. Pathetic.

Man you are a piece of work, Luci, and a revisionist to boot.
The only reason you never answered those "irrelevant" questions was because they were difficult and challenging.

Anyone who knows anything about Luci's history is aware that she cowers from real debate, and ignores anything that is even remotely difficult for her to understand.

Nobody really takes her seriously on this board anymore (except herself), although I still find it amusing to see her repeat her pattern where she makes claims, provides flimsy evidence, is challenged with questions and then disappears.

By the way Luci, I'm still waiting to discuss my research on your beloved Jutts study. Will that be happening anytime soon?

 

[glee]

Lucianarchy,

you quoted Ray Hyman discussing psi powers.

Is this link relevant?

http://www.csicop.org/si/9603/claims.html

Some extracts from it (written by Hyman):

'Conclusions
When we examine the basis of Utts's strong claim for the existence of psi, we find that it relies on a handful of experiments that have been shown to have serious weaknesses after undergoing careful scrutiny, and another handful of experiments that have yet to undergo scrutiny or be successfully replicated.'

'even if Utts and her colleagues are correct and we were to find that we could reproduce the findings under specified conditions, this would still be a far cry from concluding that psychic functioning has been demonstrated. This is because the current claim is based entirely upon a negative outcome -- the sole basis for arguing for ESP is that extra-chance results can be obtained that apparently cannot be explained by normal means. But an infinite variety of normal possibilities exist and it is not clear than one can control for all of them in a single experiment. You need a positive theory to guide you as to what needs to be controlled, and what can be ignored. Parapsychologists have not come close to this as yet. '

 

[RichardR]

glee:

An interesting interview with Hyman. Thanks for that link - I hadn't read that interview before.

 

[RichardR]

Altogether too many links on remote viewing can be found on this very forum...

http://66.192.47.137/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7340

To be exact on Luci's claim of replication (which has seemed to have shrunk from "dozens of labs around the world" to one reference to one paper), Dunne, Jahn et al (the PEAR labs) got a similar effect size when doing a remote viewing experiment (I say "a" - they did over 600!) . The fact that they used completely different class of targets (physical locations, not photographs) and different scoring system (binary scoring, not judging) means that you'd be hard pushed to call it a "replication".

Additionaly, the SRI labs I think we can discount since they left many experiments unpubloshed and had lax protocols. PEAR too has some interesting flaws. But it'll take a while for me to type them up and put them in a new thread. Maybe something for Sunday.

In the meantime, check out the link.

That's some homework you've given us Ersby.

I just read the first article - the report on Stargate. It talked about "a man" (unnamed), who was taken on a surprise visit to a magnetometer at Stanford. It goes on to describe how this man altered the output of this device, apparently with his mind.

I knew I had read about this before, but I haven’t been able to find it on the web. I’m sure it’s in one of Randi’s commentaries, but I can’t find it. Anyway, it’s in “Flim Flam”, page 131 onward. Briefly, the “man” referred to was Ingo Swann. What actually happened was that he was asked to alter the magnetic field of the device. He concentrated on it for 15 minutes, and during that time the output altered.

Randi contacted the builder of the device, Arthur Hebard, who was there during this alleged psychic event. Hebard recollects that during the 15 minutes, the output curve on occasion, leveled out. These were the points when Targ and Puthoff (T&P) decided that Swann was influencing the machine. Hebarb:

”when the curve “burped”, Swann asked T&P “Is that what I’m supposed to do?” and they happily agreed that it was…”

In other words, T&P selected the data to fit what they were expecting. Anyway, the effect was never replicated. And Hebard said that there were many other natural ways that the output could alter.

A further indication of T&P’s experimental rigor can be found where they asked Swann to describe the inside of the magnetometer. T&P reported that he did so with “great accuracy”, but Hebard reports that this was not true. Firstly, the description was not that close. But secondly, he recalls that the description was obtained with much prompting of the “That’s right”, and “Tell us more about that” kind of feedback.

No wonder Randi calls T&P “The Laurel and Hardy of Psi”.

 

[chessmanskeptic]

Info

Where is the drunk priest when you need him. De_bunk hey De_bunk post your damn rant here. I want the village drunks opinion, before I go on with my rants.

 

[RichardR]

Cheesewizz, you are a complete and total wanker. I thought you were going to clean up your act but your posts (example above), are completely worthless babble that add nothing of value. You are now the only person on my ignore list, I’m sure that makes you proud. Bye.

 

[chessmanskeptic]

Info

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[chessmanskeptic]

Info

Can anybody guess what the math problem in my sig coorelates with exactly. Here is a hint: Sun

 

[Peter S.]

I've been waiting for Chessmandickhead to jump into a Luci thread.
This could be fun.
I'll start the popcorn.

 

[chessmanskeptic]

Info

Has anybody figured out what the mathmatical equation means, if you do please post if you ever figure it out. I found this little bugur to be quite interesting.

 

[chessmanskeptic]

Info

Hey de_bunk, get posting fingers working. I need your opinion on this. Hey if you figure out what the equation means, I will give out the info on how to do remote viewing with cybershaman free version. Here is another hint: go to http://communities.anomalies.net and run my formula through a search.

 

[Brickroad]

Brickroad isn't *specifically* asking for 100% success!
Read his post carefully:
'in which the psychic being tested had more successful hits than would be normal by sheer chance'

Naturally he wants scientific conditions, e.g. a double-blind experiment.

I apologize if I worded my question in such a way that it was difficult for you to understand, Luci. But it looks like glee put the ball back into play for me, and the questions I asked have now been (indirectly) answered to my satisfaction. I am now clear that your opinion on the subject is that police SHOULD seek the help of psychics in their investigations, but such evidence SHOULD NOT be admissible into a court of law.

To throw a curveball into a mix... I'm sure you are aware, Luci, that the source of evidence introduced into a criminal case occasionally comes under scrutiny. For example, a murder weapon discovered in a suspect's apartment may be thrown out of a case completely if it can be shown that the police did not obtain a warrant. Keep in mind, this sort of situation would inevitably lead to a psychic being asked to testify that his information is accurate in a court of law. I honestly don't see a way that we could allow psychics to lead police to evidence, but not allow them to admit such evidence into a court of law.

(I admit that I'm really not learned in the way of legal matters such as this, so if anyone can show that such a situation would NOT be likely to occur, please feel free to do so.)

I find it curious, though, that you seem so certain that there is credible evidence to support this type of psychic aid, but do not think it should be able to hold up in court. It seems to me that if psychic evidence could be shown to be a reliable source of information, there'd be no need to exclude it from a trial.

In other news, I admit I find it distressing that chessmanskeptic will achieve an avatar long before I will. Trolls and spam wizards have that advantage over me, I suppose.

 

[glee]

I have taken a look at the Ganzfeld data myself and I say that there is a slight chance that there might be something there.

Well any experiment runs the risk of randomness. If I say I can influence a roulette wheel, and you take me to a casino, then there will undoubtedly be an irregular sequence of red / black. If you (naively) ask me 'is that your power?', of course I'm going to reply affirmatively.

By contrast, consider another invisible power on our lives - gravity. You can test for it anytime, anywhere. If near a massive body, you will detect it. If in space, you won't (at least not as strongly).
Why are psi powers so difficult to spot?

I take Ernie Vega's view on this. I think that remote viewing is caused by the person wanting to extend the conscious mind. We probably do this a lot in our sleep and never even realize it.

I'm sure we'd all like to 'extend the conscious mind'. I personally would like to leap tall buildings, because Superman gets lots of adulation. However there is zero evidence that anyone can.
As for the usefulness of 'We probably do this a lot in our sleep and never even realize it', I have an offer for you:

I am the President of the British Society of Levitation.
I can teach you to levitate!
Just send me lots of money, and I guarantee success.
(Small print on)
- you can only levitate if you believe in my teachings (because of the negative effect of disbelief on paranormal powers*)
- you can only levitate in your sleep
- no refunds to gullible people
(/Small print on)

* a well known effect, which is seen every time scientists test for psi powers...

The truth is that I think that MINERVA is going to slaughter all of these remote viewing kooks. This program supposedly will be able to make anyone have the ability of remote viewing. This program automatically conects you and automatically generates the coordinates. I personally have done remote viewing only by using Cybershaman. This is how I induced by first OBE and did my 1st remote viewing. I love the product to a point. I think the product has some potential in some areas.

Did you pay money for this product? (see above)

I actually do have a $599 copy of Cybershaman, that I got for free.

Wow - you saved $599! (To think that some people paid for it - do you have their addresses, because they will probably want to levitate as well.)
And Cybershaman really worked for you...

I found out the reason it did not work for me was that it did not clear my mind enough.

Lucky you didn't pay for it, then. Out of interest, was there a money-back guarantee?

Incidentally, why do you think the inventor of this magnificent technology doesn't pick up Randi's $1,000,000?
Think of the future sales of his $599 product. Why a genuine man would be rich!

I personally think that Ernie is on vacation right now and that is why I have not received a reply from him in a while. I still have the info on how to remote view with Cybershaman if anyone wants to know.

Why don't you remote view Ernie, then?

Focus is the key to inderstanding. I seriously want all of you to try it this time.

Do I have to pay someone $599?

I pretty much gave up on it for a while then, well, I dusted off some old occult books I had and started reading them.

I like Buffy too.

Once after obtaining enough occult knowledge, I realized like Ernie Vega did, there has to be something there in order for this sh** to work.

Something where?
Do you mean humans must be gullible to pay $599 for something that doesn't work?
Good grief, we'll have Pyramid Schemes and Nigerian Bankers next!

Here is the article I promised:
...human beings have a built in mechanism that demands explanations for everything they do not understand.

If that were true, why don't pupils listen all the time in School?

As analytical beings we scrutinize our surroundings constantly. At some stage during our development we become comfortable with a set of circumstances and correlate them to a particular belief system. At this point we accept what we do not understand as a component of our comfort level. We rationalize what we do not understand in an attempt to deny our core realization that as a developing species, we are destined to always be ignorant about something.

Except scientists and researchers, presumably?

Magic works, all forms of magic work. This fact has created a lot of confusion for a very long time.

The confusion is still there, since no-one has ever demonstrated magic under scientific testing.

It did not take the more astute people long to learn, that to become a practitioner of magic or a priest of some sort was a very rewarding position to be in.

It didn't take frausters long to realise people were gullible either.
How do you tell them apart?

Why do all forms of Magic work?
Here is the answer folks and it's a no-brainer, Magic works because people have the ability to perform Magic, all people do.

I think you mean 'why does gravity work?' Because we can demonstrate gravity (unlike 'magic').

We do it every day, we even notice it but dismiss it as coincidence or just shrug.

Cite?

Knowledge is power , but it takes time and effort to gain knowledge. The more knowledge you possess the more magic you can muster. It's a simple formula what you get out of it is in direct relation to what you put into it.

Gullibility is widespread, but it takes time and effort to gain money from suckers. The more chutzpah you possess the more money you can muster. It's a simple formula: what you get out of it is in direct relation to what you put into it.

We now know that lightning is not the weapon of an angry deity for the punishment of evil transgressions. We know that adrenaline can bestow "supernatural" strength. We know that the Bolivian workers who could walk for days without rest and tarry endlessly without the benefit of proper diet, were chewing coca leaves for a source of energy.

Indeed. And these things were discovered by scientists, not 'magicians'.

We have learned to build machines that can go faster than any species and fly higher and faster than any bird.

Absolutely. You can even book tickets over the Internet.

We can see though walls and read the minds of others.

Cite?

We have realized that the weather is a global system and as such can be manipulated.

Cite?

We have learned to communicate long distance without smoke, drums, carrier birds, or wires. We can go on forever listing these things. The point is all of these things were supernatural as recently as a 200 years ago, some as recently as 50 years ago.

Actually most of these things didn't exist 200 years ago. Of course crooks perpetrating frauds have been around forever.

In simpler terms magic is energy manipulation with the aid of the human mind/spirit in the absence of tangible tools with which to accomplish a given task.

Lovely. Errr...do you do demonstrations?

So what is the secret?
The secret of the universe is Life Force. It's real, it can be measured, weighted and created by synthesis.

Cite?

It's the most abundant component in the universe...

Not hydrogen then?

It is only a matter of time and some soul searching by the physics establishment before we understand Life Force and it's viable implications.

Perhaps we need some scientific searching first. How do we detect Life Force? (Can you sell us a detector?)

How did we get so confused?

When we stopped using scientific tests to decide if something exists.

 

[chessmanskeptic]

Info

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[chessmanskeptic]

Info

Here is a link on the entire theory again, read all of it. And again I say, to the 1st person that figures out what corelates perfectly with my little math problem I will tell them how to remote view by using Cybershaman free version. Here is the link I told you about. I think Ernie is still on vacation though and that is why I have not seen anything of him lately. Here is the link, read it all and try to comprehend. Link: http://www.anomalies.net/cgi-bin/bb...=35&t=000004&p=

Note: I think the boards are really laggy today so keep trying if it does not connect.

 

[glee]

Re: Info

Hey so you know I am a rosicrucian and a christian gnostic. A true seeker of old and occult knowledge. Did you even bother to read all the material I had for you. Anyways this below is a statement of my beliefs.:

Well I'm a scientist and an sceptical atheist. A true seeker of all knowledge, using the incredibly accurate scientific method.
Did you bother to read my post? I asked you a lot of questions.

Here are some of them again:

Why are psi powers so difficult to spot?

Why don't you remote view Ernie, then?

How do we detect Life Force?

And some claims you made, which I would like cites for:

- We do it (magic) every day, we even notice it but dismiss it as coincidence or just shrug.

- We can see though walls and read the minds of others.

- We have realized that the weather is a global system and as such can be manipulated.

- The secret of the universe is Life Force. It's real, it can be measured, weighted and created by synthesis.

 

[chessmanskeptic]

Info

...

 

[Liamo]

Re: Info

One example of detecting this "life force" energy is well, lets say the healing touch is an example

Chessmanskeptic,

Is it the same energy that can be detected by Therapeutic Touch practitioners?

Liam

 

[xouper]

Re: Info

... to the 1st person that figures out what corelates perfectly with my little math problem ...

You mean this one?

PHI * 9 / 50 + 11 = the anti-virus to the human program

Are you one of those Golden Ratio wackos, like Dan Winter?

 

[chessmanskeptic]

Info

No I am not a golden ratio wacko, yet it is good for remote viewing in Cybershaman. More on that later. Anyways, the answer was the Sun Spot Cycle. It coorelates perfectly with it. Kind of interesting. It was a pure accident that I stumbled upon it. The truth is that almost all occult teachings depend on the idea of "life force" energy. The truth is that all people doing anything occult in nature from remote viewing to dowsing to creation of religion depends on this idea. The reason I have the equation posted in my sig is well, changes in sun spots effects human behavior. We do not like admiting this, but it is true. During a sun spot change everything from people to telecommunications is screwed up. The interesting thing is that PHI is extremely accurate when it comes to the sun spot cycle, right down to the last number in the equation. Kind of fun actually when you figure it out. Another fun thing I use Cybershaman for is the sudden realization of knowledge. I have experimented with the idea and well, that is how I cam up with the equation. I was just messing around with the interface then, well, lets just say the next day I woke up with this equation in my head. It is kind of scary, but it seems that knowledge is also some type of mind form. More on this later.