Police and Psychics

[KelvinG]

Glee, the cold reraders are unable to replicate the same feats under the same conditions, as the mediums. There is no scientific evidence to support your claim. Other skeptics have confirmed this already in another thread - re the 'silent' sittings of Dr Schwartz experiments.

Uh, Luci, what experiments are you referring to? You say that cold readers have been unable to replicate the same feats under the same conditions. So, you are saying that experiments were done with cold readers and the cold readers were not able to replicate the feats of the mediums. Which experiments were cold readers actually involved in?

Or are you drawing this conclusion based on that the fact that cold readers did not participate in the experiments? Because if that is the case, there is no way you can draw such a bold conclusion. The absence of cold readers in an experiment does not mean that they can't replicate what mediums do.

By your logic, I can conclude that mediums have no psychic abilities because they don't take the JREF million dollar challenge. Are you comfortable with this conclusion? You must be since it is very similar to the conclusion you have drawn.

 

[Lucianarchy]

Uh, Luci, what experiments are you referring to? You say that cold readers have been unable to replicate the same feats under the same conditions.

Indeed. It has now been confirmed that Cold Readers have been unable to replicate the same feats under the same conditions.
Even the magician and cold reader Russ Horowitz told Dr Scwartz something to the effect that he and other CR's were unable to produce the same effects without some form of dialogue with the sitter. When he viewed the mediums, he again was unable to identify any CR technique.

 

[xouper]

Lucianarchy: It has now been confirmed that Cold Readers have been unable to replicate the same feats under the same conditions.

Wrong. You'll have to show better evidence than that to satisfy us true skeptics.

 

[Clancie]

Just to add to the record that some police departments do say they were greatly helped by psychics....

Noreen Reiner teaches at the FBI academy, and she is referred by the FBI to police departments around the country.

Patricia Gagliardo is another psychic who works with the police. Here are three testimonials about her:

"Our police department has used Ms. Gagliardo very successfully; through her psychic abilities we were able to close previously unresolved cases. I am satisfied with the fact that she is a true psychic. I can personally vouch for her integrity, honesty and moral character and would and have referred her to other police agencies in the country."

-Lt. Lawrence Fawcett, Coventry Police Dept. CT

"Pat Gagliardo is regularly consulted in homicide cases when all other available leads have been exhausted. I am at a loss to explain the phenomenon she possesses, however, the information received is credible and a solving factor in several cases. This officer will always remain indebted to Ms. Gagliardo for her assistance."

-William C. Gavitt, Deputy Chief, New London Police Dept. CT

"I watched in total disbelief and amazement as scratches appeared on the tops of Mrs. Gagliardo's hands while she performed psychometry on the bracelet of one of the missing girls. I also saw the scratches disappear! The missing and murdered girls were found exactly as she described they would be, and with their hands bound in wire! Mrs. Gagliardo made an instant believer out of me and I have recommended her to other police agencies."

-Detective Tom Williams, Wheeling Police Dept. Wheeling, WV

 

[xouper]

Clancy: Noreen Reiner teaches at the FBI academy, and she is referred by the FBI to police departments around the country.

That's total bullsh*t. What's your source for this?

Patricia Gagliardo is another psychic who works with the police. Here are three testimonials about her:

Those "testimonials" are from Ms Gagliardo's own personal website. I would hardly consider that an unbiased source. Got anything better than just her word for it?

She also calls herself a "Police-Accredited Clairvoyant & Medium."

Yeah, right. Since when do police "accredit" psychics?

 

[Clancie]

That's total bullsh*t. What's your source for this?

Well, the quote was from an interview (between Reiner and the self-described skeptical reporter) on Court TV (check the web-based interview). Naturally, I'd love to see the contrary facts that lead you to so confidently (arrogantly) call the reporter's introduction of Reiner "total bullsh*t.

While we're waiting for you to come up with that...here's a partial list of police departments she's worked with (from her website. Yes, naturally, if you have facts to the contrary, please provide them....)

Law Enforcement Lectures and Classes
(Noreen Reiner, A Partial List)

Florida Division of International Association for Identification Orlando, Florida

The 2nd International Seminar on Advancing The Scientific Investigation of Crimes Durham, England (Sponsored by THE BRITISH COUNCIL)

Sarasota Police Department Sarasota, Florida

St. Louis County & Municipal Police Academy Wellston, Missouri

Southwest Florida Criminal Justice Academy Fort Myers, Florida

Law Enforcement & Corrections Third International Conference Miami, Florida

Central Florida Criminal Justice Institute Orlando, Florida

Institute of Police Technology & Management Jacksonville, Florida

The Virginia Bureau of Forensic Science Richmond, Virginia

F.B.I. Academy Quantico, Virginia

Peninsula/Tidewater Regional Academy of Criminal Justice Hampton, Virginia

 

[Clancie]

And, Xouper, as far as Pat Gagliardo's credentials, you say...

Those "testimonials" are from Ms Gagliardo's own personal website. I would hardly consider that an unbiased source. Got anything better than just her word for it?

Actually, she quotes real people from real police departments. That's not quite like just giving her own word for it. These law enforcement officials were willing to be quoted on her website in support of her abilities.

What do you have to show these psychics--or the police--are lying? Or do you actually have evidence that they're just making it all up? If so, please provide it (I would also think the police departments would be interested in it.....)

She also calls herself a "Police-Accredited Clairvoyant & Medium."

Actually, Xouper, you're missing the point. I'm not saying, "Wow! Pat Gagliardo!!!! Noreen Reiner!!!! They're the greatest!!!" I'm just saying here are two examples of psychics who have provide specific references about their work with the police. If you know these references to have been checked and proven false, please supply the sources for that. I've looked and haven't seen any.

Otherwise, I think these two psychics should be given credit for providing specific testimonials and lists of police they have worked with, apparently with very satisfactory results. If you have facts to debunk them (as you apparently do, calling it "bullsh*t"), please, go ahead and share them.

 

[xouper]

Clancy: Noreen Reiner teaches at the FBI academy, and she is referred by the FBI to police departments around the country.

xouper: That's total bullsh*t. What's your source for this?

Clancy: Well, the quote was from an interview (between Reiner and the self-described skeptical reporter) on Court TV (check the web-based interview). Naturally, I'd love to see the contrary facts that lead you to so confidently (arrogantly) call the reporter's introduction of Reiner "total bullsh*t.

That's your source? That's all you have? Give me a break. That proves nothing.

The FBI has said they do not use psychics and they do not refer psychics to any police department.

Show me an FBI source that says Noreen Reiner teaches at the FBI Academy.

Since these are your claims, it's up to you to prove them. In the meantime, I am entitled to express my opinion that your claims about Reiner are bullsh*t.

BTW, a google search of "court tv" and "noreen reiner" results in no hits. Got a link?

While we're waiting for you to come up with that...here's a partial list of police departments she's worked with (from her website. Yes, naturally, if you have facts to the contrary, please provide them....)

First of all, where are the facts to support YOUR claims? And secondly, based on her lies about her involvement with the Williston, FL police department, her word is essentially worthless that she has solved any case for any police department. Do you have any independent evidence at all? Can you cite even a single case that she has solved for any of those police departments and how she solved it?

Actually, she [Gagliardo] quotes real people from real police departments. That's not quite like just giving her own word for it. These law enforcement officials were willing to be quoted on her website in support of her abilities.

And how do you know those are legitimate quotes? Are we supposed to take your word for it? Or hers? I don't think so. On the Larry King Live show Sylvia Browne cited a police officer by name that she claimed to have worked with, which turned out to be false. What makes your two examples any different?

I'm just saying here are two examples of psychics who have provide specific references about their work with the police.

What specific references? What cases? What information did they give that solved the cases? OK, so they say they have worked with the police. So what. Doesn't prove they helped solve any cases.

If you know these references to have been checked and proven false, please supply the sources for that. I've looked and haven't seen any.

I mentioned one above. Noreen Reiner and the Williston police. That was proven false. Noreen did not solve that case.

Otherwise, I think these two psychics should be given credit for providing specific testimonials and lists of police they have worked with, apparently with very satisfactory results.

I disagree. What satisfactory results? With no details and no proof, I don't see why they deserve the benefit of the doubt or any credit.

If you have facts to debunk them (as you apparently do, calling it "bullsh*t"), please, go ahead and share them.

Maybe you'd like to take a look at Joe Nickell's book, Psychic Sleuths: ESP and Sensational Cases.

 

[xouper]

xouper: BTW, a google search of "court tv" and "noreen reiner" results in no hits. Got a link?

Of course, it would help if I spelled the name correctly. I had used your spelling instead of the correct one.

http://www.courttv.com/talk/chat_transcripts/psychic.html

So, the chat moderator said she teaches at the FBI Academy. Why should should we take his word for it, since it seems obvious that he could simply have repeated what he was told by Renier?

 

[Clancie]

Xouper,

Your comment tries to discredits Renier's work with the police (which I didn't mention), not the FBI connection (which I did). You've not cast any doubt so far on the specific police testimonials from Gagliardo either. Also, what does Nickell specifically have to say about these two psychics' claims that I've mentioned?

If he says nothing about these points above, then its kind of silly to mention his book as if its relevant, isn't it? (And how do you know I haven't read it?)

Please remember, I'm not making claims about these two psychics. I am passing on the publicly posted references about their work because it may not be as easy to dismiss as total fabrication as some people here would like to do.

It seems discrediting these sources should be an easy job (just takes a phone call, right? Just like with Sylvia's claim, which was discredited almost immediately). But I haven't seen anyone do it.

If you have, you should share it.

Here are the links:

renier's website
http://nrenier.members.atlantic.net/index.html
________
interview with renier on court tv:
http://www.courttv.com/talk/chat_transcripts/psychic.html
________
pat gagliardo police testimonial page
http://www.patgagliardo.com/testimonial.htm
________
article at skeptic site discussing government use of psychics.
http://www.skepticism.net/discussion/fullthread

The original article about the FBI and psychics was cited in the London Sunday Times, November 11, 2002, but the Times only archives free to the public for 7 days. However, their article been much discussed and cited elsewhere. I'm sure you can find numerous other references to it, if this doesn't suffice. Its also well established that the US Intelligence agencies have used remote viewers (psychics) in the past. If you doubt that, do a search and you'll see much about it.

 

[Clancie]

Trying that last link again. If it still doesn't work, just go to skepticism.net and search as "Psychics and the FBI".

http://www.skepticism.net/articles/2002/000010.html

 

[Pyrrho]

http://members.aol.com/garypos/Renier_chap_pt2.html

However, Robert Ressler testified in his deposition that Renier's claim to having worked as a psychic for the FBI "is not true from the standpoint of being a paid employee and is not true from the standpoint of her being on a retainer or being used in any regular capacity. She does not work on FBI cases." (17) Added Ressler, "Merrell wanted to know whether the FBI used psychics in our investigative process. And I told him that was absolutely something I wouldn't discuss, but, in reality, we don't." (18) Additionally, Renier was compelled to modify her promotional literature as a result of a reproach by Ressler, who testified that she had claimed "that she was an instructor for the FBI, something along that line, and I told her she could not say that." (19)

 

[xouper]

Clancy: Your comment tries to discredits Renier's work with the police (which I didn't mention), not the FBI connection (which I did).

Then I assume you are retracting your earlier claim when you said, "Just to add to the record that some police departments do say they were greatly helped by psychics..." and then you immediately mentioned Renier's name. I see pyrrho2000 posted the cite confirming that Renier did not work for the FBI nor was she an instructor at the FBI Academy.

You've not cast any doubt so far on the specific police testimonials from Gagliardo either.

And you haven't established that they are legitimate. It's not incumbant upon me to disprove your claims.

Please remember, I'm not making claims about these two psychics. I am passing on the publicly posted references about their work because it may not be as easy to dismiss as total fabrication as some people here would like to do.

OK, then if all you are doing is repeating the claims made by those two alleged psychics, then I choose to simply dismiss those claims as self-serving and unsubstantiated. Apparently you are not going to offer any proof otherwise.

 

[Clancie]

Interesting, Pyrrho2000. Would you please post your source?

Two reasons the source seems particularly important. First, these quotes seem a bit equivocating to me and I'd like to see the context:

"Renier's claim to having worked as a psychic for the FBI is not true from the standpoint of being a paid employee"

"..and is not true from the standpoint of her being on a retainer or being used in any regular capacity."

Added Ressler, "Merrell wanted to know whether the FBI used psychics in our investigative process. And I told him that was absolutely something I wouldn't discuss".

Then it sounds like in this interview (when he was not under oath any more) he added, "but, in reality, we don't (use psychics)." Sounds like he added it after the fact, but wouldn't say it in his deposition. I'd like to see if that's the case.

Also, whatever your source, it states:

Additionally, Renier was compelled to modify her promotional literature as a result of a reproach by Ressler, who testified that she had claimed "that she was an instructor for the FBI, something along that line, and I told her she could not say that."

Again, why doesn't Ressler just bluntly say, "The FBI doesn't work with psychics and we have never used Ms. Renier in any capacity whatsoever." Why all the careful phrasing with the potential for relationships that are being left out of the description?

This suspicion is heightened by the fact that Renier's website still apparently is allowed to post both of these statements:

"In 1981, when Psychic Investigator, Noreen Renier first lectured at the FBI Academy in Quantico, Virginia...."

And, quoting Ressler himself:

"...She helped to locate a plane containing the body of a relative of an FBI agent." Robert Ressler, Ex-FBI

So, again, what's your source for the Ressler information?

 

[The Fool]

Inspector Fool from the psychic police wants to know what you were all doing at the time this dead Lucianarcy thread was dug up again. If you don't answer now I can always take you ALL down to the station and get out the Tarot cards...I'll get to the bottom of this....

 

[Smalso]

Is it all that surprising that any organization--police, FBI, CIA--that has so much faith in the polygraph as a forensic tool would have any problem using psychics?

 

[Lucianarchy]

"On March 24, 1994, a sixty-six-year-old man named Norman Lewis left his house in Williston, Florida, in his truck and simply disappeared. He left behind his wallet and various personal items, which he would have been expected to take if he was going on a long trip. The case baffled the local police. Williston is a small town, and the police initially thought this would be a simple case which be cleared up relatively quickly.

Despite hundreds of leads, after two years the police and Lewis's family were nowhere near finding out what had happened to him. It was at this point that the family suggested the police contact a psychic detective.

Luckily for the family, Detective Brian Hewitt, who had worked with the Williston police, had recently attended a conference where psychic detective Noreen Renier had lectured. Hewitt was impressed by Renier and decided to recommend her services to the Lewis family."

JREF moderator 'Ed' checked verified that the police did in fact get help from Noreen Renier:

"I spoke to Sgt. Hewitt a few minutes ago. To lhis credit, he believes that this chick helped. - JREF Moderator 'Ed'.

 

[xouper]

Lucianarchy: JREF moderator 'Ed' checked verified that the police did in fact get help from Noreen Renier: "I spoke to Sgt. Hewitt a few minutes ago. To lhis credit, he believes that this chick helped." - JREF Moderator 'Ed'.

Predictably, Luci once again trots out a detail that has been totally refuted a million times over. Noreen Renier did not provide any information that solved this case, regardless what Sgt Hewitt said, as anyone can plainly verify by looking at the case itself. Luci is nothing more than a lame broken record. Get some new material, Luci.

 

[Pyrrho]

Interesting, Pyrrho2000. Would you please post your source?

The source is Gary Posner. His article is available at the URL listed in my post above:

http://members.aol.com/garypos/Renier_chap_pt2.html

Posner quotes from Resslers sworn court testimony in the Merrell case; Ressler was not interviewed by Posner.

http://members.aol.com/garypos/reply_Duffie.html

Duffie: "Posner took another approach. This is really paranormal. I quote: 'When I called the FBI Academy, I was informed that Robert Ressler has since retired from duty.' Naturally Posner would contact Ex-FBI Agent Ressler at his home? He is in business and is listed in the directories. But, no. He never did. Instead he questioned Supervisory Special Agent Richard Ault . . . "

Response: When I called the FBI, neither the initial person with whom I spoke, nor Mr. Ault (to whom, as an associate of Ressler's, I was referred), invited me to track Ressler down at his home or another business -- I was informed that Ressler had retired. In lieu of conducting a personal interview with Ressler, I quoted from his sworn court testimony.

I cannot speculate about Ressler's seeming equivocation. I would say that Ressler's sworn court testimony trumps statements he made outside the courtroom.

 

[alfaniner]

Interesting that in the other thread Luci gripes about Ed's comment from way back, yet here he uses Ed's comment to support his claim.