Plume in Flight 93 photo is different

Is the plume in this photo from Flight 93 crashing?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 129 90.8%

  • No.

    Votes: 13 9.2%
  • Total voters
    142
Status
Not open for further replies.
Killtown said:
so it's more how the explosion of the MOAB blast looked like?
Click to expand...
NO. A large area of aerosolized jet fuel, ignited, is in no way similar to 20,000 pounds of high explosive, concentrated at a point and detonated.

I've already explained this to you as well. You have not presented any models that are even close to our situation.
 
This has been bugging me for a while now...

Killtown said:
Plume width size at time of Val's photo: 600m/2,000ft (6 1/2 football fields)
Peak fireball width: 860m/2,822ft (9 1/2 football fields)
Plume width size at time of Val's photo: 1,000m/3,300ft (10 football fields)
Click to expand...

Killtown do you see a problem with the bolded figures above?

-Andrew
 
[JARRING CHORD]

[The door flies open and Cardinal Ximinez of Spain [Palin] enters, flanked by two junior cardinals. Cardinal Biggles [Jones] has goggles pushed over his forehead. Cardinal Fang [Gilliam] is just Cardinal Fang]

Ximinez: NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.

[The Inquisition exits]

Chapman: I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition.

[JARRING CHORD]

[The cardinals burst in]

Ximinez: NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms - Oh damn!
[To Cardinal Biggles] I can't say it - you'll have to say it.
Biggles: What?
Ximinez: You'll have to say the bit about 'Our chief weapons are ...'
Biggles: [rather horrified]: I couldn't do that...

[Ximinez bundles the cardinals outside again]

Chapman: I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition.

[JARRING CHORD]

[The cardinals enter]

Biggles: Er.... Nobody...um....
Ximinez: Expects...
Biggles: Expects... Nobody expects the...um...the Spanish...um...
Ximinez: Inquisition.
Biggles: I know, I know! Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. In fact, those who do expect -
Ximinez: Our chief weapons are...
Biggles: Our chief weapons are...um...er...
Ximinez: Surprise...
Biggles: Surprise and --
Ximinez: Okay, stop. Stop. Stop there - stop there. Stop. Phew! Ah! ... our chief weapons are surprise...blah blah blah. Cardinal, read the charges.
Fang: You are hereby charged that you did on diverse dates commit heresy against the Holy Church. 'My old man said follow the--'
Biggles: That's enough.
[To Cleveland] Now, how do you plead?
Clevelnd: We're innocent.
Ximinez: Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
 
K, any objections?...

-------------------------------
Your minimum:

Crash angle: 40 deg
Wingspan: 38m/125ft
Fuel upon impact: 7,500 gals
Fuel % burned upon impact: 75%
Fireball temp: ???
Peak fireball width: 50m/164ft (39ft wider than the wingspan)
Crash to photo time lapse: 5.3 sec
Plume width size at time of Val's photo: 600m/2,000ft (6 1/2 football fields)
Plume color: Non-factor

--------------------------------
Your maximum:

Crash angle: 40 deg
Wingspan: 38m/125ft
Fuel upon impact: 10,000 gals
Fuel % burned upon impact: 95%
Fireball temp: ???
Peak fireball width: 860m/2,822ft (9 1/2 football fields)
Crash to photo time lapse: 1 min
Plume width size at time of Val's photo: 1,000m/3,300ft (10 football fields)
Plume color: Non-factor

--------------------------------
 
Dr Richard said:
Ahem.

1) Did this "just occur" to you having read the papers I posted where temperature is a variable?????

Killtown, I'm impressed!

We are making progress again.

But, before we move onto calculations about variable temperature gradients above complex fluid dynamic systems,

2) do you agree that windspeed is important in determining plume size?
Click to expand...
1) Yes.

2) Sure. what's your min/max for windspeed?

reports vary from 9 to 25 knots SE
 
Killtown said:
1) Yes.

2) Sure. what's your min/max for windspeed?

reports vary from 9 to 25 knots SE
Click to expand...

Cool, very good.

Now, your case rests on comparing the plume size in Val's photo to that where the B-52 bomber crashed.

We have agreed that the windspeed is important in determining plume size.

What was the windspeed when your B-52 bomber crashed?

Source please....
 
R.Mackey said:
NO. A large area of aerosolized jet fuel, ignited, is in no way similar to 20,000 pounds of high explosive, concentrated at a point and detonated.

I've already explained this to you as well. You have not presented any models that are even close to our situation.
Click to expand...
Ok, let's move on from this then. What are the min/max fireball temps?
 
Killtown said:
1) Can't remember. I update as I go.

2) feel free to change it if you feel I made it up.
Click to expand...
Then do some fact checking. Your standards for investigational integrity are apalling -- as we already knew from your website.

You'd be better off to consider heat if you want to derive more about the fireball. It won't have the same temperature in all points, or at all times. Temperature at the center might be quite high. At the edges, it'll never get higher than the ignition temperature -- as this defines the edges.
 
gumboot said:
This has been bugging me for a while now...



Killtown do you see a problem with the bolded figures above?

-Andrew
Click to expand...

Oooh! Me! Me!

6.5 football fields = 594.36 meters
9.5 football fields = 868.68 meters
and 10 football fields = 914.40 meters? (assuming that 1 football field = 100 yards)

ETA: of course, an American footbal field is 109.7 m (including endzones) so a closer value would be:
5.47
7.84
and 9.12 football fields.
 
Last edited:
Killtown said:
1) Yes.

2) Sure. what's your min/max for windspeed?

reports vary from 9 to 25 knots SE
Click to expand...


Actually the FDR reported 25 kt W, and IIRC PM reported it as 9 kt NW.

(I am assuming you in America also identify winds by the direction they are coming FROM?)

-Andrew
 
Yoink said:
Maybe Killtown plays Canadian Football?
Click to expand...

Canadian
"Field: Canadian: 110 yards x 65 yards with 20 yards end zones" 100 m
Click to expand...

US
"The game is played on a rectangular field 160 feet wide and 360 feet long with a 10 yard end zone designated at each end of the field." 109.7 m
(w/end zone)

91.4 m
(w/o end zone)
Click to expand...

European (aka Soccer):
The length of a full-size soccer pitch must be between 100 yards (90 metres) and 130 yards (120 metres) and the width between 50 yards (45 metres) and 100 yards (90 metres).
Click to expand...

Rugby:
* The field of play: The area that is in the centre of the ground is the field of play, which measures no more than 100 metres long by no more than 70 metres wide.

* The playing area: Encompassing the in-goal areas as well as the field of play is the playing area. The playing area is defined by posts flying flags; the posts are at least 1.2 metres in height.

* The in-goal areas: At each end of the playing area are the in-goal areas, which must be between 10 and 22 metres in length and 70 metres in width.
Click to expand...

Aussie Rules football:
Playing area of oval shape. Between 135 and 185 metres in length and 110 and 155 metres in width. (NFC suggests ideal dimensions are 165m length by 135m width.)
Click to expand...

:P
 
Actually the FDR reported 25 kt W, and IIRC PM reported it as 9 kt NW.
Click to expand...

I know KT won't have bothered to do this research: does anybody know where the weather-station would have been that recorded the average wind speed for that day? It's not impossible that you could still find online the full records for that day (max, min, ave). Of course, if the weather station isn't all that close to the crash site, the info would be largely useless. KT seems to have always assumed that windspeed is uniform at all times and all places covered by the weather forecast. As a sailor, I can certainly tell him that a gust of 25kt on a day with an average windspeed of 9kts is entirely possible. It is also impossible to know how the direction of the wind might have varied through the day (and moment to moment) as well. Wind direction is incredibly local--if the topography has any significant variations at all--for miles around--it is perfecty possible that the crash site could have experienced wind conditions dramatically different from those recorded at the area weather-station.
 
R.Mackey said:
1) Your standards for investigational integrity are apalling

2) You'd be better off to consider heat if you want to derive more about the fireball. It won't have the same temperature in all points, or at all times. Temperature at the center might be quite high. At the edges, it'll never get higher than the ignition temperature -- as this defines the edges.
Click to expand...
1) You mean like when I repost your current estimates on almost every page and asks if anybody objects to them?

2) Just come up with an average.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Share this page

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom