Plume in Flight 93 photo is different

[gumboot]

Wow, the alignment of objects with each other does not change! How about that! I never noticed that before.

Thanks alot guys!

It's a deceptive one. I have assembled a very quick model to strongly illustrate the situation here:



Assuming the grey oval is the mushroom cloud, the white and red barns are as located, and the blue square is Val's house.

In each example (the "yellow photo", "orange photo" and "blue photo") the thin line is the edge of frame whilst the thick line is the alignment to the edge of the mushroom cloud.

Now.

Note that in the yellow one, the edge of the mushroom cloud and the corners of the barns line up. If you widen the frame edge lines on this same photo position (which equates to using a lower focal length, or wide angle lens) the mushroom cloud vectors are the same. If you narrow the frame edge lines from the same position (which equates to a higher focal length, or "long lens") the mushroom vectors also remain the same.

However, if we select a wider lens angle (lower focal length) such as the "blue photo" notice, in order to keep the far corners of the barns at the edge of frame (thin line) we have to come much closer. As a result, the mushroom cloud and the inner corners of the barns nolonger match up.

Likewise, with the "orange photo" we have a longer lens with a narrower lens angle. To retain the barns at the edge of frame we have to move away from the subject. And again, the mushroom clouds and barns nolonger line up.

-Andrew

 

[Belz...]

For Killtown since s/he apparently has Belz on ignore:

Sorry, Lash. Apparently you've commited yourself to his ignore list by doing so. I blame myself.

 

[kevin]

Now, I am going to summarise for you, in very simple language. Please try to understand everything I am saying here and take it on board.

Excellent summary!

 

[Gravy]

Do you think Killtown will come back and try to dodge Gumboot's summary?
Or will he just announce that Gumboot is now on his ignore list so he doesn't have to respond?
Because speaking as someone who has watched this entire thread from the Lurker's box(mostly), I would have to say that KT has been thoroughly demolished.
I really do hope he apologises to Val McClatchey, but I will not be surprised if he doesn't.

I do think he will come back, and he's shown no signs that he intends to do the honorable thing, but we should keep encouraging him to do so.

Here's a reminder of his claims, from his blog. Bolding is mine.

**********

The Smokiest Smoking Gun​

Now after nearly five years of speculating over this photo, evidence has been discovered that conclusively shows that the mushroom cloud in her photo did not come from a Boeing 757 crashing at Shanksville.

Conclusions
So with this revelation that the smoke plume seen in Val's photo couldn't possibly have came from the crash area, I can only think of two possible explanations:

1) The smoke plume came from and [sic] ordnance blast closer to her house.
2) The smoke plume was photoshopped on there.

If the smoke plume was photoshopped on there, then that could mean the following:

1) the photo was simply a fraud by Val.
2) the photo was a fraud by her and the FBI who did inspect her photo and took away her original memory card.

If the first is true, then Val may be off the hook. If any of the latter two are the case then Val, you got some splainin' to do!

**********

Note that the Photoshop issue is Killtown's only criterion for Val McClatchey's guilt. However, I haven't read anywhere that Killtown attempted to determine if the mushroom cloud was digitally inserted. His blog, and his comments here, have only focused on the "ordnance blast" issue.

So if he has no idea if the image was Photoshopped, on what basis did he print that she may be guilty?

That's the logical equivalent of publicly accusing Killtown of perhaps beating his wife, and that he's got some 'splainin' to do if he's a wife-beater.

Killtown? Please 'splain.

 

[chran]

Now, I am going to summarise for you, in very simple language.

Really good summary, gumboot!

Also, Killtown, re: the color of the plume:

There's this thing called white balance in cameras. Basically, it determines how colors are interpreted by the camera.

Different cameras have different white balance settings. Thus, the plumes shown by Gravy from the WTC-explosions are different colors, because the cameras have different white balance settings.

You can easily determine this by watching how the pictures are taken within a few seconds of each other, hence the composition of the plumes couldn't have changed significantly, but they still show different shades of grey.

 

[CurtC]

It's a deceptive one. I have assembled a very quick model to strongly illustrate the situation here:

Wouldn't just pointing out that light travels in straight lines be easier?

 

[Gravy]

Wouldn't just pointing out that light travels in straight lines be easier?

Spoil sport.

Actually, I think the photo examples help a lot. I've found that many people, using "common sense," think that perspective changes with focal length, perhaps because the camera "does something" with those straight rays.

 

[Hellbound]

In addition, Huntsman has demonstrated, by personal experience, that the plume in Val's photo does not look like an ordnance plume. I have also provided photos of other hydrocarbon smoke plumes that

Just to clairfy a bit (and to correct myself if I mistakenly gave the wrong impression), my point was that it doesn't necessarily look like an ordinance plume. It could be, a plume is pretty much a plume. However, my argument was with Killtown's insistence that all ordinance plumes are grey. From personal experience, they tend to take on a color depending on the type of debris they throw up. Fire plumes (from burning, rather than exploding) havea stronger tendency to be black/gray, because of the soot particles released. Explosives don't produce that much smoke or heat (in fact, explosives can be used to put out fires), and most of their clouds are from dust/debris in the area. In Iraq, when we'd set off multi-ton charges in the desert, our plumes were uniformly tan/brown. If anyone remembers the Mythbusters episode where they blew up the cement truck, you have another example their (their plume was tan/brown, lightening as it rose).

 

[Hutch]

Allow me to add my congratulations to Gumboot on a masterful summation of a much to long thread.

 

[Wyn]

Note that the Photoshop issue is Killtown's only criterion for Val McClatchey's guilt. However, I haven't read anywhere that Killtown attempted to determine if the mushroom cloud was digitally inserted. His blog, and his comments here, have only focused on the "ordnance blast" issue.

So if he has no idea if the image was Photoshopped, on what basis did he print that she may be guilty?

He admitted to us over at Right Nation that he had not examined a copy of the photo from Val. He said the only thing he looked was the small picture from the internet. He admitted he was too cheap to spend $20 to buy a copy from Val to examine.

He's trashing this lady based on a small photo on the internet which he admitted was just fine for his purposes.

 

[kevin]

Wouldn't just pointing out that light travels in straight lines be easier?

yeah but we all learned in high school physics that lenses bend light, i think that is what throws people off.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Allow me to add my congratulations to Gumboot on a masterful summation of a much to long thread.

This bears repeating. That was a masterful summary. It's too bad that KT won't see it.

 

[Gravy]

He admitted to us over at Right Nation that he had not examined a copy of the photo from Val. He said the only thing he looked was the small picture from the internet. He admitted he was too cheap to spend $20 to buy a copy from Val to examine.

He's trashing this lady based on a small photo on the internet which he admitted was just fine for his purposes.

And he says the FBI, which viewed the original digital image from the memory card, believed they saw debris coming from the cloud. Then Killtown asks us, incredulously, if we can see the debris, based on the 72 dpi internet photo.

This is nothing new. Many of his claims are based on cherry-picked photos. I'm always amazed at the shots he uses of the Shanksville scene. He simply omits the many photos that show debris everywhere.

Oh, not to mention that he hasn't explained what he finds funny about Photoshopped feces on the graves of the flight 93 victims.

 

[gumboot]

Just to clairfy a bit (and to correct myself if I mistakenly gave the wrong impression), my point was that it doesn't necessarily look like an ordinance plume.

Yes, my apologies, I have misrepresented you...

It was dishonest of me to say that Val's photo didn't look like an ordnance plume. It would be more honest to say that the colour from ordnance plumes and air crash plumes can BOTH vary a great deal, hence basing a conclusion on colour is all a bit silly...

(Incidentally, would it be accurate to assume the colour of an ordnance plume would also depend somewhat on what exactly was being blown up?)

We kiwis know a thing or two about destroying weapons caches too

-Andrew

P.S. Does anyone know how to do the lil "thumbnail" thing with pictures?

 

[Belz...]

P.S. Does anyone know how to do the lil "thumbnail" thing with pictures?

If I understand your question: when you write a post, scroll down to a button, under "additional options", named "manage attachments". You can upload files directly from your computer.

 

[kookbreaker]

This bears repeating. That was a masterful summary. It's too bad that KT won't see it.

I now dub him Kowardtown.

 

[gumboot]

Wouldn't just pointing out that light travels in straight lines be easier?

Yes, but drawing my little picture was fun...

-Andrew

 

[Gravy]

(Incidentally, would it be accurate to assume the colour of an ordnance plume would also depend somewhat on what exactly was being blown up?)

We kiwis know a thing or two about destroying weapons caches too

Since the plume in that photo clearly went straight up, then fell over like a tree, clearly the material being blown up was wood.

 

[azazal]

We kiwis know a thing or two about destroying weapons caches too

-Andrew

This thread can now be summed up with the 2 famous quotes of Mythbusters:

"I reject your reality and substitute my own." – Adam Savage
"Jamie wants big boom." – Jamie Hyneman

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Since the plume in that photo clearly went straight up, then fell over like a tree, clearly the material being blown up was wood.

This brings up a good point. Why is it that so much CT reads like this?

FIRST VILLAGER: We have found a witch. May we burn her?
ALL: A Witch! Burn her!
BEDEVERE: How do you know she is a witch?
ALL: She looks like one. Yes, she does.
BEDEVERE: Bring her forward.
WITCH: I am not a witch. I am not a witch.
BEDEVERE: But you are dressed as one.
WITCH: They dressed me up like this.
ALL: We didn't, we didn't!
WITCH: This is not my nose, It is a false one.
BEDEVERE: Well?
FIRST VILLAGER: ... Well, we did do the nose.
BEDEVERE: The nose?
FIRST VILLAGER: And the hat. But she is a witch.
ALL: A witch, a witch, burn her!
BEDEVERE: Did you dress her up like this?
FIRST VILLAGER: ... Um ... Yes ... no ... a bit ... yes... she has got a wart.
BEDEVERE: Why do you think she is a witch?
SECOND VILLAGER: She turned me into a newt.
BEDEVERE: A newt?
SECOND VILLAGER: I got better.
ALL: Burn her anyway.
BEDEVERE: Quiet! Quiet! There are ways of telling whether she is a witch.
ALL: There are? Tell up. What are they, wise Sir Bedevere?
BEDEVERE: Tell me ... what do you do with witches?
ALL: Burn them.
BEDEVERE: And what do you burn, apart from witches?
FIRST VILLAGER: More witches!
FOURTH VILLAGER: ... Wood?
BEDEVERE: So why do witches burn?
SECOND VILLAGER: ... Because they're made of wood...?
BEDEVERE: Good.
ALL: I see. Yes, of course.
BEDEVERE: So how can we tell if she is made of wood?
FIRST VILLAGER: Make a bridge out of her.
BEDEVERE: Ah ... but can you not also make bridges out of stone?
ALL: Ah. Yes, of course ... um ... err ...
BEDEVERE: Does wood sink in water?
ALL: No, no, It floats. Throw her in the pond Tie weights on her. To the pond.
BEDEVERE: Wait. Wait ... tell me, what also floats on water?
ALL: Bread? No, no, no. Apples .... gravy ... very small rocks ...
ARTHUR: A duck.
BEDEVERE: Exactly. So... logically ...
FIRST VILLAGER: If she ... weighs the same as a duck ... she's made of wood.
BEDEVERE: And therefore?
ALL: A witch! ... A duck! A duck! Fetch a duck.
FOURTH VILLAGER: Here is a duck, Sir Bedevere.
BEDEVERE: We shall use my largest scales.