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Please tell me why I'm wrong.

briandunning

Thinker
briandunning
Joined
Apr 5, 2005
Messages
183
If you listen to my Skeptoid podcast (http://skeptoid.com), you know that I break ranks by supporting the peddling of the paranormal, and even being willing to profit from it, should the opportunity arise.

It would be great if we could change the system - make everyone a skeptic - but we never will. We live within a system that can't be changed, and why not profit from that system. You can take advantage of it, and work to change it, at the same time. The two are not mutually exclusive.

PLEASE:
Read - http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4003
Listen - http://skeptoid.com/audio/skeptoid-4003.mp3
Subscribe - http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=203844864

I would love to get some more negative feedback on this issue. Should be easy since EVERYONE disagrees with me. :) :)
 
I argue that paranormal services are better provided by people who understand their limitations, rather than by those who believe they can do something they can't. In fact, if paranormal services were regulated, this would be the law. Think how much better off believers would be if the paranormal services they received always led them to trained professionals in cases where such is needed.
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This is the attitude I have when people ask me for a Reiki (I'm one of those Reiki Master thingys) or other type "energy work" session. I'm up front with them about the limitations and that they'd better be seeing a doctor and following her advice and treatments. Also if their interested I deconstruct energy healing.

But I don't feel I could make a pretense of talking to their dead. That gives nothing but confusion, and I wouldn't have the opportunity to educate them about reality, or at least be honest with them about what I was doing.

It would be neat though to do a very good cold reading and have them praising me for my psychic abilities and then telling them how a cold reading works.

Selling homeopathic snake oil? No thanks! No profit because I'd have to give them their money back when I explained the power of placebo.
 
And if you are just giving and reinforcing their addictive fantasies, you are hurting them in the long run.
 
This is a question I face almost daily. You are right that I think you are wrong. :)
Describing why that is is more difficult though.

A couple quick thoughts.

1:
The notion that we can promote a virtue (skepticism in this case) by advocating its antithesis seems incorrect. This is something where I think the more simple way is a better way. If promoting the virtue can bring it about, more complex ways may be effective but are less direct and so not better.

Your premise states that we can never change anything, and I would disagree with that. Sometimes things change very slowly.

2:
You get what you nurture. There is a sense that you propose using a form of spiritual authority to achieve your ends. This promotes a society that relies on authority for answers. So in this case too, it seems counterproductive to a libertarian goal.

3:
Mental illness (in your scenario) becomes a vast tool that can be drawn upon to reinforce your authority. Would you resist the temptation?
 
briandunning said:
We live within a system that can't be changed, and why not profit from that system.
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Because my sense of self worth prevents me from doing any such thing. Being comfortable with the choices I make is far more important than making a buck.
 
Molinaro said:
Because my sense of self worth prevents me from doing any such thing. Being comfortable with the choices I make is far more important than making a buck.
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I think I made very good arguments in the podcast why it's better for paranormal services to be provided by people who understand their limitations. If I could save a life, I'd be a lot more comfortable with that choice, than if I stood by and did nothing, and let a cancer sufferer die from faith healing.
 
Wouldn't taking advantage of the credulous reduce the overall 'fitness' of the meme, hence benefitting the human race as a whole?

A sort of eumemics, I guess.
 
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It's unethical. It's unethical to profit from people's weird beliefs and to provide a service which does nothing. Maybe it provides some comfort, and maybe placebo effect results, but in the end, it really does nothing. If they want comfort, be a friend and listen to them. If you traffic in this stuff, you are charging for fantasy, encouraging that fantasy, and taking advantage of people who are naive and trusting. You would just be enforcing their fantasy and doing no real good in the long run. I couldn't live with myself if I did something like that. How would you feel if a family member got involved with these fantasies - maybe ones that aren't immediately harmful (except for encouraging a dependency for the practitioner) but there are also many that are harmful.
 
supercorgi said:
It's unethical. It's unethical to profit from people's weird beliefs and to provide a service which does nothing. Maybe it provides some comfort, and maybe placebo effect results, but in the end, it really does nothing. If they want comfort, be a friend and listen to them. If you traffic in this stuff, you are charging for fantasy, encouraging that fantasy, and taking advantage of people who are naive and trusting. You would just be enforcing their fantasy and doing no real good in the long run. I couldn't live with myself if I did something like that. How would you feel if a family member got involved with these fantasies - maybe ones that aren't immediately harmful (except for encouraging a dependency for the practitioner) but there are also many that are harmful.
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I'm guessing you didn't listen to the points I made in the podcast - sorry but it's not really practical to try and paste it into the forum here. Is it unethical for a supermarket manager to draw his salary when his store sells cigarettes?
 
briandunning said:
I'm guessing you didn't listen to the points I made in the podcast - sorry but it's not really practical to try and paste it into the forum here. Is it unethical for a supermarket manager to draw his salary when his store sells cigarettes?
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Is this just some ploy to get us to listen to your podcast?
 
Silly Green Monkey said:
More analagous---should the drug dealer accept payment for the drugs?
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This depends on your social philosophy. Do you believe consenting adults should be free to engage in whatever victimless acts they choose, or do you believe the government should babysit and decide what's best for people?

I say yes, the drug dealer should accept payment. I'd rather this be legal and regulated so people aren't getting shot in alleys, but I believe that people should be free to engage in whatever victimless activities they want, be it sex, drugs, or psychic services.

No I don't do any drugs except alcohol. :D
 
I listened to the podcast.
  1. It's unethical to profit from someone by lying to them (commonly called fraud but the purveyors of paranormal have a number of ways to get around the law).
  2. That you can do something legally doesn't mean that it is ok to do it.
  3. That someone else does something doesn't make it ok for you to do the self same thing (assuming selling cigarettes is comparable it still doesn't make it right see Tu Quoque fallacy).
  4. Cigarettes have a warning printed on the side and are known to cause cancer.
  5. If you told someone that cigarettes don't cause cancer in order to sell them the cigarettes that would be unethical.
I'm libertarian though not a strict libertarian (I eat meat). I think we should let the buyer be ware with some measure of protection. I don't think people should be able to lie and make claims that are demonstrably false in order to profit. This happens every day though. You can get a bigger penis (Enzyte) or lose weight effortlessly (Cortisol) or lots of other BS.

That said, even if we took a purely libertarian stance or just because our courts don't care or just because you can lie for the purpose to make money doesn't make it ok.

RandFan
 
briandunning said:
This depends on your social philosophy. Do you believe consenting adults should be free to engage in whatever victimless acts they choose, or do you believe the government should babysit and decide what's best for people?
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Depends on what you mean by victim-less. Necrophilia is a victim-less act. What else do you have in mind?
 
You say that it's "not OK". Why isn't it? This implies that harm is done. OK for the "real psychic" to do it, just not for me?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to get to the root.

(My big point in the podcast is that the personal beliefs of the person behind the cash register are not relevant. The elephant in the room is that this buyer demands to buy something you think is worthless; and he's going to buy it no matter who sells it. Education is the answer, not criticizing the seller.)
 
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briandunning said:
I'm guessing you didn't listen to the points I made in the podcast - sorry but it's not really practical to try and paste it into the forum here. Is it unethical for a supermarket manager to draw his salary when his store sells cigarettes?
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Perhaps you can summarize your position for this discussion forum.

eta: or maybe you did so in your previous post?
 
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