• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Please help me parse these patents

Thank you for this intelligence, and also thank you for, as I always try to do, allowing plainly that you might be mistaken in your conjectures when you're not sure of their absolute factuality, namely about the publicity. I'll see what I can do.
 
Last edited:
Thank you for this intelligence. I know the former, although I think I may have neglected to say it, at least that patents don't necessarily have to work as described to be approved. How do YOU KNOW the latter or is this just your belief? I think it is the latter and I know the difference between knowledge and belief. The one is based for the most part on provable facts. The other is based usually on conjecture and is sometimes in line with the facts, often not. The only way to prove if the U.S. Air Force patents as well as any other work as described is to build such machines and test them physically, or so it seems to me. Have you done so?
 
Last edited:
They say nothing about needing an EEG which the person working the EEG has to attach electrodes to the subject's head to my knowledge and therefore the subject's consent is necessary to use an EEG unless the experimenters are going to tie the subject down and immobilize him or her and an EEG CANNOT, therefore, be used remotely.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for this intelligence, Dr. (not a doctor). Wasn't Einstein a worker in a patent office before his brilliant discoveries?
 
I have read through the entire first patent, and I have experience in electronics.

The first part is about remote monitoring of brain wave. There is nothing in that sends up a red flag. All of it sounds plausible. The basic idea is you send two radio signals at a person's brain and monitor the resultant signal which is the mix of the two signals and has been modulated (think audio over a radio station) by the brain waves. This signal is demodulated (think radio receiver) to get back the brain wave. I can believe that this is possible. I doubt that it would be feasible over distances of greater than a few meters, and probably only is a space devoid of much RF noise.

The second I am more skeptical of. It asserts that you can change the brain waves of the subject by transmitting a signal that is the difference between what is monitored and what you want to change it to. This is sort of like saying you could transmit a signal to a radio station that would change the program from what they are transmitting to one that you provide. They make no claim about what effect this would have on the subject.

IXP
 
Why do I think what? That they wouldn't allow me say on this forum that I don't think they'll ever award the patent or that I think they won't ever award the patent?
Please consider using the "Quote" button when replying to a post. It makes it much easier to understand what you are talking about.
 
I am having an exceptionally difficult time following your responses. If I may make a request. Either make each response with the name of the poster to which you are responding, or mention the post number of the post to which you are responding. I mention these two options as they are the easiest ways to edit your most recent posts with the EDIT function. The EDIT button can be found in the lower right corner of your posts.

Perhaps the most efficient approach is to use the QUOTE function. By clicking the QUOTE button in the lower right corner of the post to which you to resonse, the entire post and the name of the poster appear in the post that you create.
 
I will say, as I've said above, that it seems statistically "fishy" in that 100% of the hundreds of applicants to date have not even gotten past the preliminary test stage. Does anyone know if there's any way for ME to discover in at least some of the cases why that was so and if the applicant's agreed? I'd settle for five cases of my choice.

It helps to use the quote button when replying, so people know what you're replying to.

As far as the statistics, the only way to assess whether something is fishy is to know what the expected percent of success is.

If paranormal things are real, the success rate should be close to 100%.

If paranormal things aren't real and the results are based on chance, the expected success would be about 1:1000, since that's usually the odds required for the preliminary test, though of course with some things there aren't odds, like the lady who said she could make people pee. She either could or she couldn't. (She couldn't.) But other things, like dowsers choosing which bucket contains water correctly for X number of tries are nicely amenable to odds.

So with 1:1000 odds, the expected success rate means about 1 out of 1000 applicants would pass the first test by chance alone. With only a few hundred applicants (I don't know the actual number but surely nowhere near a thousand yet), there wouldn't be any expectation of a pass by chance alone, unless the applicant's paranormal powers were real.
 
Thank you for your response, Ben, but, uh, I NEVER said any of the patents I asked about in my beginning thread were/are paranormal! To my knowledge, I opened my thread in the science forum category, NOT in the paranormal one, which I did/did NOT do deliberately!

Further, these patents have NOTHING, WHATSOEVER, to do with the challenge I intend to propose! Rightly, by instinct, it seems, if you believe in such things, I did not post my proposed challenge on this particular forum, I only asked for a scientist, namely, a professional, U.S. government or U.S. accredited University employed, statistician to help me with my claim.
 
Thanks for this, Jim. Can you tell me how many hundreds there were? I don't suppose that you would know the reasons why ALL of them failed? That seems statistically fishy to me, although I'm no professional statistician as you may have surmised ;)! I will try the forum you recommended though.


The reason why ALL of them failed is simple: So far, none of the paranormal claims have been real. That, of course, is the whole point of the challenge. Trying to talk in terms of "statistics" is the wrong way to think about it.

Imagine if there were a group of people who claimed they could jump, unassisted, over a mile in the air. Would you think it was "statistically fishy" that every single one of them ever tested, failed to actually jump that high? No? Well, the sorts of paranormal claims that have been made (so far, at least) are in this sort of category. So improbable as to be safely regarded as impossible. And so far, we've been right about that.



Thanks for this info. I'll look forward to your further response. If I'm not mistaken, there are more to the claims than what you have stated, like being able to tell if someone is awake or asleep according to their brainwave patterns, AND being able to understand, verbatim, what they're thinking. And that's only the first patent I mentioned, if I'm not mistaken.


Okay, here you have to be a bit careful with your terminology. I actually work in the patent industry, and in patents "patent claims" are specific legal passages. The meaning of the term "claim" as used in patents is much narrower than in colloquial use. It's more like a land claim: a specific legal definition of exactly what you think you have invented, that you want to be protected by the patent. If you look at the end of the US patents, you'll see a section usually set off with a header similar to "What is claimed is:" that contains these definitions. As I explained above, it is these patent claims which must be understood, if you want to know what has actually been patented.

The run-of-the-mill claims made in the description are subject to far less stringent standards than the patent claims. I could show you patents which describe perpetual motion machines, but which have patent claims written so as to avoid actually staking a legal claim to a perpetual motion device, as such are well known to be physically impossible. This process of "over-describing and under-claiming" is so prevalent in patents related to questionable technologies like this that it was a central part of a talk I gave at The Amazing Meeting 5 on how people "patent perpetual motion".
 
Thank you for this intelligence Ladewig. Have you tried a challenge yourself? If so, can/will you tell me what it was? We already know how you've fared because NO ONE has ever gotten past the preliminary stage in decades out of hundreds of applicants!
 
Ben M, I again, that is NOT my challenge in any, way, shape or form! I NEVER even implied it was. Mysterious woman, eh? Do you know that Steven Hawking said that the most mysterious phenomena he believes that exist in the whole universe are women?!?!?! Smart man! ;)
 
Last edited:
I have to say dear man that in spite of your skepticism and experience, etc., I'm not interested in conjecture, although I may not have made myself clear on that point! I'm interested in FACTS. Anyone here willing to build and test any of these patents on his/her own? If I can win the paranormal challenge or maybe even if not, if you'll give me say until the end of the year or maybe before if I can come up with the money on my own, I'd be willing to pay someone, who has to be a professional in the field of electronics with some kind of certification, $500 for parts and to create the machine and test it on ME (!) in a place I will determine.

You would have to be really interested and excited to do such a thing because I'm sure it would cost you more than $500 and you would have to bring the apparatus to a motel half a mile away from my home in Jamaica, Queens, NY where I live. Any takers?
 
Please consider using the "Quote" button when replying to a post. It makes it much easier to understand what you are talking about.
Sorry about that. I'm trying it now, but I don't kkow if I have it right. I pressed the quote button after clicking on reply to your post. Is that all that's necessary? I think I also have to choose advanced. By Jove, I think I've got it ;)!
 
I am having an exceptionally difficult time following your responses. If I may make a request. Either make each response with the name of the poster to which you are responding, or mention the post number of the post to which you are responding. I mention these two options as they are the easiest ways to edit your most recent posts with the EDIT function. The EDIT button can be found in the lower right corner of your posts.

Perhaps the most efficient approach is to use the QUOTE function. By clicking the QUOTE button in the lower right corner of the post to which you to resonse, the entire post and the name of the poster appear in the post that you create.
Thank you, Ladewig. Point taken!
 
I will say, as I've said above, that it seems statistically "fishy" in that 100% of the hundreds of applicants to date have not even gotten past the preliminary test stage. Does anyone know if there's any way for ME to discover in at least some of the cases why that was so and if the applicant's agreed? I'd settle for five cases of my choice.

Many of the applicants are dowsers. The simplest explanation as to why dozens of dowsers failed the preliminary test is that dowsing doesn't work.

I could go into detail about how dowsing tests are structured, but I expect that such information is already written up somewhere. Does anyone know where to find such a summation?

Also, is there a brief summation of the woman who claimed "X-Ray vision"? That might be the perfect example of why a patented machine doing something is completely different from and person claiming the same power without using any apparatus whatsoever. The JREF Paranormal Challenge is not for machines that can do things that humans cannot. It is for people who insist that they can demonstrate under controlled conditions powers and abilities far beyond those of ordinary people. Powers and abilities that exceed anything that can be documented as a non-paranormal power or ability.

[Yes, there can be certain exceptions to my entirely unofficial explanation]

EDITED TO ADD:
I apologize, Avaratess, I misunderstood and concluded that the patents were related to your consideration of the JREF Paranormal Challenge.
 
Last edited:
I will say, as I've said above, that it seems statistically "fishy" in that 100% of the hundreds of applicants to date have not even gotten past the preliminary test stage. Does anyone know if there's any way for ME to discover in at least some of the cases why that was so and if the applicant's agreed? I'd settle for five cases of my choice.

Remember: the applicants show up claiming to have paranormal powers. Randi helps them devise tests that they think they can pass. The tests are statistically powerful ones and are good at eliminating random guessers.

Let's hypothesize that "paranormal powers do not exist". The data (100% of applicants fail) is consistent with the hypothesis.

What's "fishy" about that interpretation? You think that some of the testees should have won by lucky guessing? Nope, the tests are designed to be very hard for a "lucky guesser".

Anyway, a large number of applications, claims, and a few pre-test results were all documented on the old JREF forum and archived here.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=43

Go ahead and read up. Most people never got as far as "testing" because (during negotiations) it turns out that they don't trust their "powers" unless a bunch of standard fraud opportunities (cold reading, etc.) are left open.

Here are some I remember being actually tested:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28936
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29864
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34609
 
Further, these patents have NOTHING, WHATSOEVER, to do with the challenge I intend to propose! Rightly, by instinct, it seems, if you believe in such things, I did not post my proposed challenge on this particular forum, I only asked for a scientist, namely, a professional, U.S. government or U.S. accredited University employed, statistician to help me with my claim.

Thanks for clarifying!
 
I only asked for a scientist, namely, a professional, U.S. government or U.S. accredited University employed, statistician to help me with my claim.


Avatress, I'm not a professional mathematician. However, I don't see where you've posed any question for a statistician. What question exactly do you need a statistician's help for?
 

Back
Top Bottom