Please Denounce the Whoppers (big lies)

[332nd]

Didn't we have a poster who was an ATC?

 

[LashL]

Just an observation: things must be getting seriously stagnant on the conspiracy fantasist sites these days if all of the remaining stragglers on the outer fringes of the outer fringes of the truth™ movement are finding their way here.

Don't feed the trolls, people.

 

[NYCEMT86]

Didn't we have a poster who was an ATC?

Not only an ATC, but an ATC that worked on Sept 11th

 

[triforcharity]

Is it BCR?? I believe reheat is a pilot, or something to do with that subject.

 

[beachnut]

cheap shot

 

[LashL]

Is it BCR?? I believe reheat is a pilot, or something to do with that subject.

No, it's CheapShot.

 

[fuelair]

They knew exactly which planes had switched the transponders off and they knew exactly where they were when they were switched off. Air traffic controllers are not amateurs.

Actually, since Reagan dumped the real ones (like the idiot republicker he was) it has been rather pathetic in the ATC department - and it has been rather widely known for at least 25 years that the ATC system is not nearly up to date, there are not enough ATCs, ATCs generally work too many hours AND THE SYSTEM IS NOT NEARLY MODERN ENOUGH!!! But, don't let that stop you from believing whatever you want. Makes it hilarious to read you and your buddies!!

 

[Sam.I.Am]

Gumboot is the NORAD guy and I forget who was the ATC guy ATM but yes there is one poster here who was on duty and in the new england area on 9/11.

ETA: Yes, CheapShot is who I was thinking of, he's answered a few questions I've had in the past concerning ATC in general.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

cheap shot on 9/11:

http://911guide.googlepages.com/cs3

 

[PhantomWolf]

Gumboot is the NORAD guy and I forget who was the ATC guy ATM but yes there is one poster here who was on duty and in the new england area on 9/11.

ETA: Yes, CheapShot is who I was thinking of, he's answered a few questions I've had in the past concerning ATC in general.

As others have said, Cheap Shot. He was intimately involved as the Military Liason for Boston ATCC, so he spend a lot of time on the phone with NEADS or in Telcons with other FAA centres. He also confirmed that 93 ghosted after crashing due to a projected path and stated that the miles out of DC was given by him to NEADS from that system.

An interview with him can be form here.

 

[Scott Sommers]

So what's happened to Truther Vinnie and his new pal Truther John? I figured they'd be have been back by now to straighten out this mess. Come on Vinnie, CIT needs you to tell us why the Truth Movement is the most divisive issue in the the nation.

 

[CompusMentus]

<Jaq off>

I know nowt about aircraft.

I've always wondered, why is there an option/ability to turn transponders off? Surely, after all these years of mid-air hi-jackings, it should be compulsory to have them switched on?

Compus

 

[R.Mackey]

Fire, among other things. Practically everything electric in an aircraft can be powered off by breakers.

Sometimes they act up as well. Does no good to have your transponder pumping out RFI all over the place in controlled airspace.

In general, anything that has a backup, also needs to be switchable.

 

[CompusMentus]

Fire, among other things. Practically everything electric in an aircraft can be powered off by breakers.
Sometimes they act up as well. Does no good to have your transponder pumping out RFI all over the place in controlled airspace.
In general, anything that has a backup, also needs to be switchable.

Ahhhhhhhhhh......thanks.

Compus

 

[tfk]

Hi John,

Please Denounce the Whoppers:
An Open Letter to James Randi and the Skeptic Community
by John H. Morrison
(johnm 307 AT wind stream DOT net)

January 21, 2010

How about we start by, not denouncing, but chastising kids who make grand pronouncements outside of their areas of expertise.

I am assuming that you are a kid, because adults generally have more common sense than to publish diatribes like this when they clearly lack the rudimentary understanding of the systems upon which they are pontificating. (At my age, "kids" covers anyone under about 25. If you're over 25, you've got no excuse for this nonsense.)

Tell me, please. When did you get your pilot's license. How many hours have you? How much cross country experience? How much time in the Boston-NYC-Wash DC corridor?

The fact of the matter is that Popular Mechanics said very, very little. They did right exactly what you are doing exactly wrong.

Popular Mechanics did not presume to pronounce on subjects with which they had no experience. They went to experts, and used the experience & knowledge of the experts to help them craft the right questions AND provide the right answers.

Clever shysters lie to people NOT by providing wrong answers. They do it by providing correct answers to the WRONG questions.

Your post demonstrates that you don't understand the right questions.

If you want to find out what the situation was really like, there is not a better, more informative (short) version than this one: http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2006/08/norad200608

You can listen in on the communications between NORAD, ATC & several pilots.

Why couldn't ATC find the hijacked flights? When the hijackers turned off the planes' transpondears, which broadcast identifying signals, ATC had to search 4500 identical radar blips crisscrossing some of the country's busiest air corridors.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=3

At the time of the hijackings, there were 4,500 planes in the skies over the continental United States. Without transponder data or radio contact, controllers were forced to search for the missing aircraft among all the identical radar blips, with each controller responsible for varying numbers of planes in his or her sector.

Dunbar, David & Brad Reagan, eds., Debunking 9/11 Myths: Why Conspiracy Theories Can't Stand Up to the Facts, New York: Hearst Books, 2006, p. 17.

--- Popular Mechanics

The FAA may have been tracking the progress of United 93 on a display that showed its projected path to Washington, not its actual radar return. Thus, the Secret Service was relying on projections and was not aware the plane was already down in Pennsylvania.

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/pdf/sec1.pdf, p. 41.

--- The 9/11 Commission Report

With the first two quotes above, Popular Mechanics tells us flat-out that ATC must search thousands of radar blips, across the entire country, for a commercial aircraft that has lost its transponder signal. Popular Mechanics has thereby followed the the admonition, "If you tell a lie, make it a whopper." (The third quote is discussed in the second part of this letter.)

You'd do well to stow the 'tude until you've made a little headway thru the basics.

You'd do well to not call honorable people liars, when it is you that has no clue what you are talking about. Just a suggestion.

This admonition reflects the notion that one best gets away with lying by boldly telling a humongous, transparent falsehood. It may be difficult mentally to reject such an enormous falsehood. Nevertheless, the sheer enormity of the September 11, 2001 attacks and their consequences of the past decade demand that the skeptic community, the science community, and every person of integrity denounce the major falsehoods.

It takes a commercial airplane literally hours to cross the continental US. An aircraft flying halfway from New York to California in five minutes is in orbit:

1500 miles/(1/12 hour) = 18,000 mph = orbital speed

An airplane flying 600 mph can travel at most ten miles each minute it's gone from ATC's view. At 450 mph, the airplane can travel only 7.5 miles each minute. ATC would limit its search to a region attainable in the time elapsed --- a far smaller region with only ten or twenty aircraft.

First, the number of planes in the air at 9:20 AM EST is HEAVILY biased towards the east coast. They have been putting planes in the air for 3 hours. The west coast has barely started (it being 6:20 AM there.)

Second, you dwell in the delusion that the FAA has primary radar coverage over the entire US. It does not. If the planes turn off their transponders, then unless they are within a certain short distance of an airport with a primary radar, they did indeed disappear from the ATC's radar screens. Only to appear fleetingly, & disappear again.

Your orbital speed comment makes zero sense. Nobody suggested that anyone was searching for these 4 planes over Colorado. They were searching over the entire US for signs of OTHER hijacked planes, tho. And, thru the course of the day, they had a total of 29 reports of hijackings nationwide that day. Not 4. (See the NORAD Tapes article above.)

Your mistake here is in assuming that, if someone turns off his transponder, there is an ATC controller someplace who is going to instantly notice. This is utterly wrong. The system is built upon the premise that the pilots WANT TO COOPERATE with the ATC. That they want to be seen, and want to stay on the routes where they are supposed to be. Somebody turns off his transponder, and it may be 10, 15 minutes before the ATC notices. Where do you start to look? The ATC doesn't have an instant record of where the guy deviated from his course.

Your wild-ass-guesses about this are completely off base.

A second idiocy is inherent in Popular Mechanics's claim: the notion that ATC can't distinguish an aircraft without a transponder signal among aircraft with transponder signals. If several airplanes are within the search region, and all but one transmit transponder signals, that remaining aircraft is the wayward aircraft.

They can't track what they couldn't see. They can't see planes without transponders thru giant swaths of territory, away from airports.

There are thousands of planes that fly around without transponders. They are not required, except if you are IFR or flying into Controlled Airspace.

It is silly to suggest that ATC could be foiled by simply turning off a transponder. A rogue airplane flying through the country's busiest air corridors is a disaster waiting to occur. ATC (with half a century experience) would have procedures for identifying, tracking, and responding to such a rogue airplane.

You don't know what you are talking about.
They didn't have primary radar.
LOTS of planes fly around perfectly legally without transponders. Even in the crowded Northeast (although most do have them.)

Note Popular Mechanics's propaganda technique: they attempt to preempt the obvious argument (made in the previous paragraph) by refering to aircraft "crisscrossing some of the country's busiest air corridors." But this quote is given as a reason for ATC's inability to track a wayward aircraft, rather than as a reason to rapidly locate and track the wayward aircraft.

In fact, controllers claimed to have tracked American Airlines Flight 11 all the way to its crash into the North Tower without the benefit of the transponder.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0913/p1s2-usju.html http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=130125&page=1

Such 20/20 hindsight. How long have you been an Air Traffic Controller?

How can you get so much, so wrong?

Quoting stories (9 years later) that were written amidst the massive confusion on Sept 13, 2001 is one way.

Boston Center followed AA11. The FAA has no fighter jets.
NEADS had control of fighter jets. NEADS could not follow AA11.

And being a little deceptive doesn't help, either.

Nobody "tracked American Airlines Flight 11 all the way to its crash into the North Tower".

Your quoted story said:
"I watched the target of American 11 the whole way down," said Boston controller Mark Hodgkins.

"The whole way down" refers to the trip from Boston to NYC.

The plane simply disappeared from their radar over NYC. Planes disappear from radar all the time. Usually because they are descending to land.

The very next line in the story shows that your claim is wrong & misleading:
"But it was only when the television pictures of a burning World Trade Center tower came on, that he knew why the flight had disappeared from his scope."

I addition, FAA's Boston Center erroneously reported that AA11 had bypassed NYC and was heading towards Washington DC. http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a921flight11mistake#a921flight11mistake

More complete: http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a824flightturns#a824flightturns

Unlike Monday morning quarterbacks, real people were trying to deal with a very confused picture that day.

The Popular Mechanics quotes are in the sections of the article and the book titled, "No Stand-Down Order." Those sections pretend to to explain why ...

I'll tell ya what. I've had enough of your attitude.

You post your questions again, without the snarky chip on your shoulder, and then - maybe - I'll consider spending time on a spoiled brat.

Please Publicly Denounce the Whoppers!

How about denouncing ignorance first.


Tom

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Please Publicly Denounce the Whoppers!

I do hereby denounce and condemn the following whoppers:

WTC building seven collapsed in six seconds.

WTC7 had only a few small fires.

WTC7 collapsed symetrically into its own footprint.

The Twin towers collapsed at free fall acceleration.

WTC 1, 2 and 7 all have all the major characteristics of controlled demolition.

WTC 1, 2 and 7 had any characteristics of controlled demolition.

Fire can't melt steel.

Large quantities of molten steel were found in the ruins of the WTC complex.

Peer-reviewed studies show active thermitic materials in WTC dust.

Larry Silverstien made a profit off the insurance payouts on the WTC complex.

PNAC called for a "Pearl Harbor" style attack on the United States.

No aircraft wreckage was recovered from the Pentagon.

No aircraft wreckage was recovered from Shanksville.

Osama Bin Laden does not appear in any video claiming responsibility for the attacks.

Osama Bin Laden is not wanted for 9/11.

Six, seven, eight or nine of the hijackers were still alive as of 9-12-2001.


I denounce all of the above, and variations thereof, as blatant and stupid lies that are easily destroyed by just a few minutes research.

Furthermore, anyone who tells such lies deserves to be lined up against a wall and slapped.



Howzzat, John?

 

[Alferd_Packer]

I do hereby denounce and condemn the following whoppers:

WTC building seven collapsed in six seconds.

WTC7 had only a few small fires.

WTC7 collapsed symetrically into its own footprint.

The Twin towers collapsed at free fall acceleration.

WTC 1, 2 and 7 all have all the major characteristics of controlled demolition.

WTC 1, 2 and 7 had any characteristics of controlled demolition.

Fire can't melt steel.

Large quantities of molten steel were found in the ruins of the WTC complex.

Peer-reviewed studies show active thermitic materials in WTC dust.

Larry Silverstien made a profit off the insurance payouts on the WTC complex.

PNAC called for a "Pearl Harbor" style attack on the United States.

No aircraft wreckage was recovered from the Pentagon.

No aircraft wreckage was recovered from Shanksville.

Osama Bin Laden does not appear in any video claiming responsibility for the attacks.

Osama Bin Laden is not wanted for 9/11.

Six, seven, eight or nine of the hijackers were still alive as of 9-12-2001.


I denounce all of the above, and variations thereof, as blatant and stupid lies that are easily destroyed by just a few minutes research.

Furthermore, anyone who tells such lies deserves to be lined up against a wall and slapped.



Howzzat, John?

You left out a few.

Flight 77 penetrated through 9 feet of reinforced concrete walls.

WTC had a concrete core

William Rodriguez eard explosions in the basement before the aircraft hit.

Fighter jets should have been able to intercept the planes within minutes.

The Pentagon has AA batteries set to shoot down any plane that comes near it.

Flight 93 landed in Cleveland.

Pods

Dustification

Clunkity Clunk.

 

[funk de fino]

He came back, after not posting since 2006, to produce a double face palm OP like that?

Really?

 

[marineboy]

John,

What are your conclusions?

What evidence do you have for your conclusions?(as opposed to evidence against other peoples conclusions)

And what do you intend to do about it? (apart from shouting at people on the internet.)

(just noticed the dates on the posts........moving on..........)

 

[CurtC]

The situation went from "Yawn, another Tuesday morning" to "OMGWTFBBQ" in a rapid fashion.

"OMG WTF barbecue"?