• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Please Denounce the Whoppers (big lies)

JohnM307

Scholar
Joined
Aug 7, 2006
Messages
94
Please Denounce the Whoppers:
An Open Letter to James Randi and the Skeptic Community
by John H. Morrison
(johnm 307 AT wind stream DOT net)

January 21, 2010

Why couldn't ATC find the hijacked flights? When
the hijackers turned off the planes' transponders,
which broadcast identifying signals, ATC had to
search 4500 identical radar blips crisscrossing
some of the country's busiest air corridors.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=3

At the time of the hijackings, there were 4,500
planes in the skies over the continental United
States. Without transponder data or radio
contact, controllers were forced to search for the
missing aircraft among all the identical radar
blips, with each controller responsible for
varying numbers of planes in his or her sector.

Dunbar, David & Brad Reagan, eds., Debunking 9/11 Myths:
Why Conspiracy Theories Can't Stand Up to the Facts, New
York: Hearst Books, 2006, p. 17.

--- Popular Mechanics

The FAA may have been tracking the progress of
United 93 on a display that showed its projected
path to Washington, not its actual radar return.
Thus, the Secret Service was relying on
projections and was not aware the plane was
already down in Pennsylvania.

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/pdf/sec1.pdf, p. 41.

--- The 9/11 Commission Report

With the first two quotes above, Popular Mechanics tells
us flat-out that ATC must search thousands of radar blips,
across the entire country, for a commercial aircraft that
has lost its transponder signal. Popular Mechanics has
thereby followed the the admonition, "If you tell a lie,
make it a whopper." (The third quote is discussed in the
second part of this letter.)

This admonition reflects the notion that one best gets
away with lying by boldly telling a humongous, transparent
falsehood. It may be difficult mentally to reject such an
enormous falsehood. Nevertheless, the sheer enormity of
the September 11, 2001 attacks and their consequences of
the past decade demand that the skeptic community, the
science community, and every person of integrity denounce
the major falsehoods.

It takes a commercial airplane literally hours to cross
the continental US. An aircraft flying halfway from New
York to California in five minutes is in orbit:

1500 miles/(1/12 hour) = 18,000 mph = orbital speed

An airplane flying 600 mph can travel at most ten miles
each minute it's gone from ATC's view. At 450 mph, the
airplane can travel only 7.5 miles each minute. ATC would
limit its search to a region attainable in the time
elapsed --- a far smaller region with only ten or twenty
aircraft.

A second idiocy is inherent in Popular Mechanics's claim:
the notion that ATC can't distinguish an aircraft without
a transponder signal among aircraft with transponder
signals. If several airplanes are within the search
region, and all but one transmit transponder signals, that
remaining aircraft is the wayward aircraft.

It is silly to suggest that ATC could be foiled by simply
turning off a transponder. A rogue airplane flying
through the country's busiest air corridors is a disaster
waiting to occur. ATC (with half a century experience)
would have procedures for identifying, tracking, and
responding to such a rogue airplane.

Note Popular Mechanics's propaganda technique: they
attempt to preempt the obvious argument (made in the
previous paragraph) by refering to aircraft "crisscrossing
some of the country's busiest air corridors." But this
quote is given as a reason for ATC's inability to track a
wayward aircraft, rather than as a reason to rapidly
locate and track the wayward aircraft.

In fact, controllers claimed to have tracked American
Airlines Flight 11 all the way to its crash into the North
Tower without the benefit of the transponder.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0913/p1s2-usju.html
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=130125&page=1

The Popular Mechanics quotes are in the sections of the
article and the book titled, "No Stand-Down Order." Those
sections pretend to to explain why NORAD never set fighter
jets to intercept or even approach any of the hijacked
aircraft. Popular Mechanics is treated and cited as a
major authority in defense of the official story. With
claims like these, Popular Mechanics's discussion of 9/11
requires careful skeptical scrutiny, if not outright
rejection as blatant propaganda.

The Second Whopper

The third quote opening this article, from the first
chapter of the 9/11 Commission Report, attempts to explain
how the FAA could report to the Secret Service the
approach of an airplane 80 miles away (then 60 miles away
at least two minutes later), when in fact the airplane had
crashed 150 miles away.

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/pdf/sec1.pdf, p. 41.

The evidence for the alleged projection consists solely of
an April 8, 2004 interview with Tim Grovac (misspelled
"Tim Grovack").

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/pdf/notes.pdf, p. 464, Note 217.

Handwritten notes of the interview have been released:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13484935/...vac-Fdr-41804-Interview-Handwritten-Notes-039

I have not found anything in the handwritten notes about
aircraft trajectory projections. The Commission did not
cite any actual FAA records or controller testimony about
an actual projection of Flight 93's path.

The projection would have continued at least nine minutes
after the crash in the Commission's account. The
Commission's use of the phrase "may have" reflects only
the minimal evidence (zero verifiable evidence) in support
of such a monstrous claim, and the Commission's
disinclination to investigate the claim.

These are but two examples of lies, propaganda, and
incompetence in the official story, or told by allegedly
credible authorities in defense of the official story. I
have sent you (James Randi) many examples in private
correspondence. The truth of 9/11 cannot stand lies,
incompetence, and propaganda.

Please Publicly Denounce the Whoppers!
 
JohM:
Where have you been hiding? This is 2010.

A forum search will show all you need to know about your "whoppers".
 
An Open Letter To Truthers

What if you are right?

If the world is being manipulated by an organization that makes hitler's pals look like schoolboys, then why on earth are you wasting time with youtube videos and internet debate?

If the world is on the edge of a cliff with an NWO flunkie behind it with a pointy stick, then the last thing you should be doing is wasting your time here with us.

Do what any other ( real, successful ) revolution has done, something.

Get armed, get organized and actually fight the power.

Did civil rights get given to blacks because of some angry letters?

Did Nazi's stop because of some bad press?

No it took blood sweat and tears, something i have yet to see the truthers have to shed.

If you want to get your message across, if you want to seem like more than 20 somethings with too much time on their hands, storm a death camp, capture an evil leader, do what every revolutionary group has done before and actually sacrifice something.

If the threat is real, the truth movement is either incompetent or lazy. Nothing has been done short of chest thumping and self promotion. And this seems very suspect if the world is being manipulated so.

In truth though, i believe that you fear the reaction, you fear storming a death camp and finding nothing , you fear taking a prisoner and finding out he is just an average guy, you fear bursting your bubble of self delusion when the reality of the world sets in.

In short, if we are right you are wasting your time, if you are right, doing what your doing now is wasting your time. And moreso a cowardly and self focused set of actions
 
An open letter to the OP:

Can you truthers do something other then just recycle the exact same garbage that been discredited for years now?
At least come up with some original crapola for a change.......
 
Please Denounce the Whoppers:
An Open Letter to James Randi and the Skeptic Community
by John H. Morrison
(johnm 307 AT wind stream DOT net)

January 21, 2010

Why couldn't ATC find the hijacked flights? When
the hijackers turned off the planes' transponders,
which broadcast identifying signals, ATC had to
search 4500 identical radar blips crisscrossing
some of the country's busiest air corridors.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=3

At the time of the hijackings, there were 4,500
planes in the skies over the continental United
States. Without transponder data or radio
contact, controllers were forced to search for the
missing aircraft among all the identical radar
blips, with each controller responsible for
varying numbers of planes in his or her sector.

Dunbar, David & Brad Reagan, eds., Debunking 9/11 Myths:
Why Conspiracy Theories Can't Stand Up to the Facts, New
York: Hearst Books, 2006, p. 17.

--- Popular Mechanics

The FAA may have been tracking the progress of
United 93 on a display that showed its projected
path to Washington, not its actual radar return.
Thus, the Secret Service was relying on
projections and was not aware the plane was
already down in Pennsylvania.

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/pdf/sec1.pdf, p. 41.

--- The 9/11 Commission Report

With the first two quotes above, Popular Mechanics tells
us flat-out that ATC must search thousands of radar blips,
across the entire country, for a commercial aircraft that
has lost its transponder signal. Popular Mechanics has
thereby followed the the admonition, "If you tell a lie,
make it a whopper." (The third quote is discussed in the
second part of this letter.)

This admonition reflects the notion that one best gets
away with lying by boldly telling a humongous, transparent
falsehood. It may be difficult mentally to reject such an
enormous falsehood. Nevertheless, the sheer enormity of
the September 11, 2001 attacks and their consequences of
the past decade demand that the skeptic community, the
science community, and every person of integrity denounce
the major falsehoods.

It takes a commercial airplane literally hours to cross
the continental US. An aircraft flying halfway from New
York to California in five minutes is in orbit:

1500 miles/(1/12 hour) = 18,000 mph = orbital speed

An airplane flying 600 mph can travel at most ten miles
each minute it's gone from ATC's view. At 450 mph, the
airplane can travel only 7.5 miles each minute. ATC would
limit its search to a region attainable in the time
elapsed --- a far smaller region with only ten or twenty
aircraft.

A second idiocy is inherent in Popular Mechanics's claim:
the notion that ATC can't distinguish an aircraft without
a transponder signal among aircraft with transponder
signals. If several airplanes are within the search
region, and all but one transmit transponder signals, that
remaining aircraft is the wayward aircraft.

It is silly to suggest that ATC could be foiled by simply
turning off a transponder. A rogue airplane flying
through the country's busiest air corridors is a disaster
waiting to occur. ATC (with half a century experience)
would have procedures for identifying, tracking, and
responding to such a rogue airplane.

Note Popular Mechanics's propaganda technique: they
attempt to preempt the obvious argument (made in the
previous paragraph) by refering to aircraft "crisscrossing
some of the country's busiest air corridors." But this
quote is given as a reason for ATC's inability to track a
wayward aircraft, rather than as a reason to rapidly
locate and track the wayward aircraft.

In fact, controllers claimed to have tracked American
Airlines Flight 11 all the way to its crash into the North
Tower without the benefit of the transponder.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0913/p1s2-usju.html
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=130125&page=1

The Popular Mechanics quotes are in the sections of the
article and the book titled, "No Stand-Down Order." Those
sections pretend to to explain why NORAD never set fighter
jets to intercept or even approach any of the hijacked
aircraft. Popular Mechanics is treated and cited as a
major authority in defense of the official story. With
claims like these, Popular Mechanics's discussion of 9/11
requires careful skeptical scrutiny, if not outright
rejection as blatant propaganda.

The Second Whopper

The third quote opening this article, from the first
chapter of the 9/11 Commission Report, attempts to explain
how the FAA could report to the Secret Service the
approach of an airplane 80 miles away (then 60 miles away
at least two minutes later), when in fact the airplane had
crashed 150 miles away.

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/pdf/sec1.pdf, p. 41.

The evidence for the alleged projection consists solely of
an April 8, 2004 interview with Tim Grovac (misspelled
"Tim Grovack").

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/pdf/notes.pdf, p. 464, Note 217.

Handwritten notes of the interview have been released:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/13484935/...vac-Fdr-41804-Interview-Handwritten-Notes-039

I have not found anything in the handwritten notes about
aircraft trajectory projections. The Commission did not
cite any actual FAA records or controller testimony about
an actual projection of Flight 93's path.

The projection would have continued at least nine minutes
after the crash in the Commission's account. The
Commission's use of the phrase "may have" reflects only
the minimal evidence (zero verifiable evidence) in support
of such a monstrous claim, and the Commission's
disinclination to investigate the claim.

These are but two examples of lies, propaganda, and
incompetence in the official story, or told by allegedly
credible authorities in defense of the official story. I
have sent you (James Randi) many examples in private
correspondence. The truth of 9/11 cannot stand lies,
incompetence, and propaganda.

Please Publicly Denounce the Whoppers!

Fantastic post, well done.

Don't expect any of the pseudoskeptics here to actually address your points but I will certainly settle down with some popcorn and watch them dance.

You really should post more often.
 
Don't expect any of the pseudoskeptics here to actually address your points but I will certainly settle down with some popcorn and watch them dance.

you MUST.....be joking.

"In science, the burden of proof falls upon the claimant; and the more extraordinary a claim, the heavier is the burden of proof demanded. The true skeptic takes an agnostic position, one that says the claim is not proved rather than disproved. He asserts that the claimant has not borne the burden of proof and that science must continue to build its cognitive map of reality without incorporating the extraordinary claim as a new "fact." Since the true skeptic does not assert a claim, he has no burden to prove anything. He just goes on using the established theories of "conventional science" as usual. But if a critic asserts that there is evidence for disproof, that he has a negative hypothesis --saying, for instance, that a seeming psi result was actually due to an artifact--he is making a claim and therefore also has to bear a burden of proof."

now THAT......is the definition of a pseudo-skeptic. it describes 9-11 Truthers....to a T!!!!

Edited by Locknar: 
Off-topic portion of post removed.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Fantastic post, well done.

Don't expect any of the pseudoskeptics here to actually address your points but I will certainly settle down with some popcorn and watch them dance.

You really should post more often.

I realise how the reaction the OP has gotten would look to people new to these claims, but its so OLD people are bored of it.

A better thing to do is to rebut the articles on 911myths for example, I'm sure you'd get a proper response to that rather than making claims as if no ones heard them before and as if no ones ever given a response.
 
Last edited:
I realise how the reaction the OP has gotten would look to people new to these claims, but its so OLD people are bored of it.

A better thing to do is to rebut the articles on 911myths for example, I'm sure you'd get a proper response rather than making claims as if no ones heard them before and as if no ones ever given a response.

What does the OP get wrong?
 
What does the OP get wrong?

Read what I said to do. What does 911myths get wrong?

btw why didnt you explain why you told me I was blaming the Jews on the other thread? No accountability with you vinniem, absolutely none. As I said before people like you are the main reason why I realised the Truth Movement was full of crap.
 
You know what would be awesome, if there was a function on this site that could be used to find the answers to the questions you have. I mean where could I ever find such a feature?



ETA:

my grammar sucks.
 
Last edited:
um.....everything.

Specifics please. Name one thing he gets wrong and back it up with something.

Is he wrong when he says that an ATC wouldn't have to look through 4500 planes to try and find one that has switched it's transponder off?
 
Read what I said to do. What does 911myths get wrong?

btw why didnt you explain why you told me I was blaming the Jews on the other thread? No accountability with you vinniem, absolutely none. As I said before people like you are the main reason why I realised the Truth Movement was full of crap.

I assume you mean this page?

http://www.911myths.com/html/primary_radar.html


Hmm. Not really much to work with there.

In the absence of a transponder signal, controllers must pick out an unidentified blip on the screen from all the other aircraft they're dealing with, not such an easy task.

This is blatantly false. A plane without a transponder signal would clearly be identified amongst many more that have.
 
Last edited:
What does the OP get wrong?


Well..I'll just pick one. He states

With the first two quotes above, Popular Mechanics tells
us flat-out that ATC must search thousands of radar blips,
across the entire country, for a commercial aircraft that
has lost its transponder signal. Popular Mechanics has
thereby followed the the admonition, "If you tell a lie,
make it a whopper." (The third quote is discussed in the
second part of this letter.)

He is suggesting that the ATC were searching the entire lower 48 for the planes...and goes on to give some calculations. Only problem...he's mis-quoting the article. The article actually says:

ATC had to search 4500 identical radar blips crisscrossing some of the country's busiest air corridors.

It never says "the whole country"..it say's "one of the country's busiest air corridors"...there's a big difference, and he is misrepresenting what the article actually says... so his whole premise is flawed.
 
Well..I'll just pick one. He states



He is suggesting that the ATC were searching the entire lower 48 for the planes...and goes on to give some calculations. Only problem...he's mis-quoting the article. The article actually says:



It never says "the whole country"..it say's "one of the country's busiest air corridors"...there's a big difference, and he is misrepresenting what the article actually says... so his whole premise is flawed.

But there were 4500 planes in the air across the whole country. So if Popular Mechanics say they have to search through 4500 blips they are automatically implying that the whole country needed to be searched.

If PM meant a particular air corridor then why use the national figure of 4500 blips?
 
You are assuming that the display showing the transponder information can also have the RADAR data overlaid on the same screen instead of on two different screens. I'm not an ATC so I don't know if they even had that capability back then or if it was widely implemented if it was available.

I can see it causing problems with all of the smaller private aircraft with no transponders out there.
 
I assume you mean this page?

http://www.911myths.com/html/primary_radar.html

Hmm. Not really much to work with there.


This is blatantly false. A plane without a transponder signal would clearly be identified amongst many more that have.

Great, now watch people educate you.

Not that it will do any good as I've seen you wont admit when you're wrong, or when you post insane questions to me implying I believe the Jews did 911.

btw, I already argued NORAD stuff a lot in my first thread I ever made on this forum, maybe you didn't read it all. Eventually I just couldn't defend what I was saying anymore and that clearly everything truthers had ever said about it was based on lies and ignorance intentionally trying to dumb everything down to misrepresent it.
 
Last edited:
They did have to search the entire country because they didn't know how many planes had been hijacked or where they were. For all they knew the Sears tower in Chicago, the Transamerica Pyramid in San Francisco or some other notable structures were targets. It's one of the reasons that they decided to just shut it all down and sort it out on the ground.
 

Back
Top Bottom