Placebo Effect
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Rolfe
Adult human female
I think he stiil thinks there's some difference between ions that are "paired" in a salt, and the same ions dissociated free in a solution. No matter that we've told him a hundred times that there isn't.flume said:
You can measure electrolytes in solution in body tissues as they are. Or you can dry or ash these tissues and then measure the electrolytes. And you'll get exactly the same answer if you do it carefully enough.
In fact, many measuring techniques require that the analyte be in solution, irrespective of how it was in its native state. Makes no difference if you ash it first and then redissolve it, or if it was insoluble in its native state (bone), it's still the same ion.
There must be some fundamental problem with this simple fact that conflicts with Kumar's tissue salts theory, as he repeatedly fails to understand what he's being told.
Rolfe.
Flume, Rolfe,
Can you give composition of wet & dried/ashed part of any body tissue in the origional form they are presents in those tissues? I think the composition in wet tissues will be in ionic form but it will be in salt form in dried/ashed tissues. Suppose any part of body have Na, K & Cl ions in wet tissues. But I think they will be in NaCl & KCl (salt) form in dried/ashed tissues. Am I right? Furthur, suppose there are 1000 ions of each of these. How & in what proportion, they will associate on ashing/drying the tissues?
Can you give composition of wet & dried/ashed part of any body tissue in the origional form they are presents in those tissues? I think the composition in wet tissues will be in ionic form but it will be in salt form in dried/ashed tissues. Suppose any part of body have Na, K & Cl ions in wet tissues. But I think they will be in NaCl & KCl (salt) form in dried/ashed tissues. Am I right? Furthur, suppose there are 1000 ions of each of these. How & in what proportion, they will associate on ashing/drying the tissues?
Rolfe
Adult human female
You have to have positive and negative charges in equal numbers. So are you saying, 1000 Na<SUP>+</SUP> ions, 1000 K<SUP>+</SUP> ions and 2000 Cl<SUP>-</SUP> ions? In that case you would have 1000 NaCl and 1000 KCl in the dried form. As far as I know they will just associate in the proportions they are present in in solution.Kumar said:
It might help if you gave us the teensiest clue as to why this matters.
Rolfe.
Rolfe,
I have mentioned 1000 ions of each not 2000 of Cl-. I think there is some fixed pattren of quantity of differant salts in differant parts of body on their drying up or ashing. It means when we dry out same parts of differant specimens we may get some similarity in quantity of various salts as present in them. Do you know any referance which gives chemical composition of differant parts of body on their ashing/drying on salt basis.
I have mentioned 1000 ions of each not 2000 of Cl-. I think there is some fixed pattren of quantity of differant salts in differant parts of body on their drying up or ashing. It means when we dry out same parts of differant specimens we may get some similarity in quantity of various salts as present in them. Do you know any referance which gives chemical composition of differant parts of body on their ashing/drying on salt basis.
Badly Shaved Monkey
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Kumar said:
Kumar
You can't have 1000 each of Na+, K+ and Cl- or you'd have a big net positive charge, which the body doesn't have, so Rolfe answered in the only way that the question can be answered.
" Do you know any referance which gives chemical composition of differant parts of body on their ashing/drying on salt basis."
Why do you want to know this?
BSM,
I want to understand that everytime when we dry out or ash any part of body then the chemical composition in salt form will be mostly the same in same proportion of that part or not. We have Na+,K+ & Cl- ions everywhere in body but when we dry/ash differant parts, how we gets salts in same quantity & proportion(if it is like so).
I want to understand that everytime when we dry out or ash any part of body then the chemical composition in salt form will be mostly the same in same proportion of that part or not. We have Na+,K+ & Cl- ions everywhere in body but when we dry/ash differant parts, how we gets salts in same quantity & proportion(if it is like so).
Badly Shaved Monkey
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Kumar said:
Because the average composition of the body on anything other than a microscopic scale is about the same everywhere, unless a significant amount of bone is included.
Why do you want to know this?
BSM, Just read this;
" All constituents of the human body act in such orgons where they principally have a function. All fulfil their functions, and then they are the cause of symptoms" by Stapf's archive in 1832.
"The structure and vitality of orgons depend on the presence of necessary quantity of inorganic constituents" by Prof. of physiology Dr. Moleschott.
Can we decide fixed constituents of differant orgons when they are in their ionic forms or we have to take these details only on ashing/drying the same?
" All constituents of the human body act in such orgons where they principally have a function. All fulfil their functions, and then they are the cause of symptoms" by Stapf's archive in 1832.
"The structure and vitality of orgons depend on the presence of necessary quantity of inorganic constituents" by Prof. of physiology Dr. Moleschott.
Can we decide fixed constituents of differant orgons when they are in their ionic forms or we have to take these details only on ashing/drying the same?
Badly Shaved Monkey
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Kumar said:
Kumar, just look at that date will you please?! The world has moved on in the last 200 years, only homeopaths and other loonies quote 200-year old scientific texts as if they are holy writ. This is why you can't even ask sensible questions, you are asking for a history of the last 200 years of progress in every answer. Please just accept that the questions are no longer make sense because they were founded in ideas that prove to be wholly or partially in error. Go and get some modern knowledge.
BSM, it is not necessary that older mentionings can't be better than the newones. We should make proper assesments esp. when a thing is mass existing which is based on the older theories.
However it is also mentioned;
Health: may be considered as the state of stable equilibrium of the ionic movement of the inorganic salt in the living cell.
Disease: is a state of disequilibrium of the normal movement of the ion of the inorganic cell salt which causes altred function and structure of the cell.
It means they were aware of both ionic & compound forms of various cell salts.
However it is also mentioned;
Health: may be considered as the state of stable equilibrium of the ionic movement of the inorganic salt in the living cell.
Disease: is a state of disequilibrium of the normal movement of the ion of the inorganic cell salt which causes altred function and structure of the cell.
It means they were aware of both ionic & compound forms of various cell salts.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Kumar, the physiology and pathology of the body's electrolyte balance are really very well understood. But as BSM just said, everything meaningful has been discovered in about the past 100 years, and most of it more recently than that. Historical documents over 200 years old are of academic interest only.
When I moved offices two weeks ago I threw out a book about body water and electrolytes because the date of publication was 1964 and I thought it was just too old to bother keeping.
Sodium, potassium and chloride are extremely important to health, you're quite right. But you really need to read some up-to-date texts and find out how things really work. All this nonsense about ash is a complete blind alley.
Rolfe.
When I moved offices two weeks ago I threw out a book about body water and electrolytes because the date of publication was 1964 and I thought it was just too old to bother keeping.
Sodium, potassium and chloride are extremely important to health, you're quite right. But you really need to read some up-to-date texts and find out how things really work. All this nonsense about ash is a complete blind alley.
Rolfe.
Rolfe,
It looks that current physiology have not considered salts importance in differant parts of body on their drying up but only considered their ionic presence & importance. Understanding of differant salts in differant organs seems to be really important in view of application of medications in salt forms. Suppose if Sodium is in low level in body. Can we add sodium by giving any sodium salt to a patient? How you decide it?
It looks that current physiology have not considered salts importance in differant parts of body on their drying up but only considered their ionic presence & importance. Understanding of differant salts in differant organs seems to be really important in view of application of medications in salt forms. Suppose if Sodium is in low level in body. Can we add sodium by giving any sodium salt to a patient? How you decide it?
Rolfe
Adult human female
Kumar, for the thousandth time, the ions are the same ions whether they are in solution (as they are in the live body) or dried. There is no difference. There is no relevance to considering this hypothetical "dried" form, because there's no extra information to be gained.Kumar said:
Yes, understanding the role of the electrolytes in different tissue types is extremely important in medicine. Fortunately it's a subject which is very well understood. When sodium is low in the body, yes of course it can be (and is) replenished by giving a sodium salt. Sodium chloride is most usually used, because that's neutral as far as acid/base balance goes. If you used, say, sodium bicarbonate, that would have other implications by creating alkalosis.
What you have to do is calculate by how much the body is deficient in sodium, then replace the correct amount. Salt tablets are the easiest way, but if there is also dehydration then you could use something like isotonic saline intravenously.
Medications in salt form tend not to have enough sodium (if a sodium salt) to make much difference.
Kumar, there's a very good reason why modern physiology understands this better than Dr. Schüssler did, in fact two reasons. One is that we now have much more accurate measuring instruments than he had. The other is that science builds on what went before. Understanding is cumulative. Watson, Crick and Franklin made a great breakthrough in figuring out the structure of DNA - but now every schoolchild studying biology knows more than they did. Trust me, there's no hidden or forgotten wisdom in Dr. Schüssler's outdated and superseded work. We know much more than he did, it's inevitable.
Rolfe.
Rolfe,
How do you consider application of differant medicines/salts in relation to particular part or orgon of body not to whole body? Do you have details of composition of various orgons seprately? Btw, when we ash any body part & analyse, can we get some extra biochemical's information which can't be available by regular/wet/just dried part analysis? If composition/changes of cell membrane can be noted in regular/wet/just dried part 's analysis?
How do you consider application of differant medicines/salts in relation to particular part or orgon of body not to whole body? Do you have details of composition of various orgons seprately? Btw, when we ash any body part & analyse, can we get some extra biochemical's information which can't be available by regular/wet/just dried part analysis? If composition/changes of cell membrane can be noted in regular/wet/just dried part 's analysis?
No. When you ash a body part you destroy all the organic material - it turns into CO2 and water. All you are left with is the minerals. All the structure is gone. All the biochemistry is gone, really. All the proteins, all the cell membranes are gone. Any associations of the ions in the ash will not necessarily have anything to do with their associations in the tissue. You might have protein-bound Ca++ and free Cl- in the tissue; in the ash it might be combined as a CaCl2 salt, but this would just be an artifact of the combustion. It would have nothing to do with the ions in the living tissue. Suppose you burned sodium bicarbonate. the bicarbonate would be turned to CO2. The Na+ would remain in the ash, but it might be in the form of NaOH or Na2O. This would be an artifact of the combustion and would say nothing about the role of Na+ in the tissue. All you can tell from analysis of ash is the amount of Na+ or K+ etc. that was in the tissue.Kumar said:
I can't tell what you're asking here. There are a variety of ways of looking at components and changes in the cell membrane, depending on what you are interested in. If you looked at ash there would be nothing left of the membrane at all, since it would have been incinerated.
(I am not a chemist, so if I say anything that's not correct, I hope someone will correct it.)
Flume, thanks. You have mentioned that minerals will only be found in ash analysis of any tissue of any part of body. Can we know the same mineral composition(on salt basis) on wet/living/dried tissues analysis as we found on their ash analysis. Is it possible that some mineral or inorganic chemicals can only be found on ash analysis & not otherwise?
I just want to know the differances between the wet analysis & ash analysis.
I just want to know the differances between the wet analysis & ash analysis.
Beancounter
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Gents
I don't have anything particularly relevant to add to this discussion but I would just like to say the following:
Rolfe
You have the patience of Job and I have learnt much from reading your responses - repitition also helps people like me
. Chemistry at school would have been far more interesting if put into context like this. It almost makes me wish I hadn't given it up before O'level.
Kumar
I admire your persistence but I think (Rolfe - excuse me for presuming) the point that Rolfe is trying to make is that it would appear that you are trying to find scientific proof for something that has none. Rather than desperately trying to find justification for what you (appear) to believe is true, rather read up on the latest scientific text books to better understand what medical science currently believes is true - it will not correspond.
I don't have anything particularly relevant to add to this discussion but I would just like to say the following:
Rolfe
You have the patience of Job and I have learnt much from reading your responses - repitition also helps people like me
. Chemistry at school would have been far more interesting if put into context like this. It almost makes me wish I hadn't given it up before O'level.Kumar
I admire your persistence but I think (Rolfe - excuse me for presuming) the point that Rolfe is trying to make is that it would appear that you are trying to find scientific proof for something that has none. Rather than desperately trying to find justification for what you (appear) to believe is true, rather read up on the latest scientific text books to better understand what medical science currently believes is true - it will not correspond.
It is my quality/fault (you can decide acc.
) that I go on trying with unlimited numbers repititions unless things are clear to me or others. I appreciate your efforts but still it is not clear to me. Let me put it in a layman's simple way.
Is there any thing which can be called as "tissue/cell salts" in wet or ashed/dried parts of our body & if it is than which salts are present in (1) body as a whole (2) differant parts/organs in body(if these are differant than in body as a whole)??
) that I go on trying with unlimited numbers repititions unless things are clear to me or others. I appreciate your efforts but still it is not clear to me. Let me put it in a layman's simple way.Is there any thing which can be called as "tissue/cell salts" in wet or ashed/dried parts of our body & if it is than which salts are present in (1) body as a whole (2) differant parts/organs in body(if these are differant than in body as a whole)??
Rolfe
Adult human female
Kumar, I think Flume explained it very well, and you would do well to try to read that again.
I simply don't know how to make it any clearer to you. Salts/electrolytes in the body are very well understood, and there are several books you could read to help your understanding of this. However, for the reasons Flume explained, this whole idea of drying or ashing the tissue is irrelevant. Meaningless. Trust me, it is a complete blind alley.
I've said several times that I understand you believe in the efficacy of these tissue remedies. However, from the standpoint of science, we see that people are inclined to believe in the efficacy of all sorts of useless things, because of a combination of coincidence and wishful thinking. We have no reason at all to suppose that you are any different in this respect.
You seem to have realised that as far as science is concerned these tissue remedies can't work. There's not enough of anything in them, and the grinding and shaking rituals do exactly nothing to change this. But still you keep banging at the door of science, asking us to find a mechanism of action for you, or trying to twist known scientific facts into some sort of bogus explanation.
If you can't look rationally at what is going on and accept that coincidence and wishful thinking have perhaps led you into a misapprehension, I think you'd manage better is you simply looked on any effect as magical or supernatural. It certainly isn't scientific.
If you really want to know about the physiology and biochemistry of minerals and electrolytes as it really is, why not get yourself a basic textbook you can read at your own pace? However, until you stop looking for an explanation of something that simply isn't happening, I fear you may be doomed to keep going round the same unproductive circles.
Rolfe.
I simply don't know how to make it any clearer to you. Salts/electrolytes in the body are very well understood, and there are several books you could read to help your understanding of this. However, for the reasons Flume explained, this whole idea of drying or ashing the tissue is irrelevant. Meaningless. Trust me, it is a complete blind alley.
I've said several times that I understand you believe in the efficacy of these tissue remedies. However, from the standpoint of science, we see that people are inclined to believe in the efficacy of all sorts of useless things, because of a combination of coincidence and wishful thinking. We have no reason at all to suppose that you are any different in this respect.
You seem to have realised that as far as science is concerned these tissue remedies can't work. There's not enough of anything in them, and the grinding and shaking rituals do exactly nothing to change this. But still you keep banging at the door of science, asking us to find a mechanism of action for you, or trying to twist known scientific facts into some sort of bogus explanation.
If you can't look rationally at what is going on and accept that coincidence and wishful thinking have perhaps led you into a misapprehension, I think you'd manage better is you simply looked on any effect as magical or supernatural. It certainly isn't scientific.
If you really want to know about the physiology and biochemistry of minerals and electrolytes as it really is, why not get yourself a basic textbook you can read at your own pace? However, until you stop looking for an explanation of something that simply isn't happening, I fear you may be doomed to keep going round the same unproductive circles.
Rolfe.