PK parties

[Interesting Ian]

Re: yeah...

I see where this is going. Stop the presses - an amazing, supernatural phenomena which has escaped the general notice of mankind for tens of thousands of years is only now being be revealed though the efforts of those fearless enough to question scientific orthodoxy and linear thinking. Quick, someone contact the National Enquirer.

A nice intelligent response as per usual Billy

This is what I'm always saying about Skeptics; it doesn't matter how compelling the evidence is, they still will not believe. How rational is that?

 

[Interesting Ian]

Fantastic! Now, let's do just that. Let's investigate further.



Aw, shucks.....now, why is it that this excuse always come up, even after such fantastic results are being reported? Why not investigate further? Why step back from a truly amazing discovery, that will fundamentally change the way we understand the universe?

Yeah, I agree with this. Some phenomenon occurs which completely conflicts with the modern western Zeitgeist, and yet people can't be bothered to further investigate and write up reports. Ummm . .yeah. It makes one a tad suspicious of whether these events really occurred.

 

[CFLarsen]

This is what I'm always saying about Skeptics; it doesn't matter how compelling the evidence is, they still will not believe. How rational is that?

What "evidence" are you talking about here?

We have a story from flyboy217, who tells of two friends of his who seems to have experienced something interesting.

We have a story, Ian. Unverifiable, and what's worse, there is no chance we will ever get to investigate this story.

 

[Interesting Ian]

What "evidence" are you talking about here?

We have a story from flyboy217, who tells of two friends of his who seems to have experienced something interesting.

We have a story, Ian. Unverifiable, and what's worse, there is no chance we will ever get to investigate this story.

I wasn't referring to this spoon bending in particular. I was talking about all the evidence for paranormal phenomena both scientific and anecdotal.

As for this spoon bending . .well . . .I am more disposed to believe it's possible than previously. That is the rational approach to adopt.

But we have to rely upon Flyboy's honesty and his friends' honesty. I never believe because of one anecdote. I simply note it and consider it to be some evidence for the alleged phenomenon in question. But further investigation is required. Ideally I'd need to experience it for myself.

 

[CFLarsen]

I wasn't referring to this spoon bending in particular. I was talking about all the evidence for paranormal phenomena both scientific and anecdotal.

As for this spoon bending . .well . . .I am more disposed to believe it's possible than previously. That is the rational approach to adopt.

But we have to rely upon Flyboy's honesty and his friends' honesty. I never believe because of one anecdote. I simply note it and consider it to be some evidence for the alleged phenomenon in question. But further investigation is required. Ideally I'd need to experience it for myself.

But the point is, we cannot rely on honesty. We have to investigate the evidence. Simply accumulating stories like these is evidence of nothing, and there is absolutely no reason to believe this, or any other paranormal phenomenon, until the evidence is in.

Stories are not evidence, Ian.

 

[Anders W. Bonde]

Well - if Mr. Houck's claim is genuine, he should have no problem walking off with the JREF Challenge million. Taking The Challenge would be an excellent opportunity to initiate further investgation, IMO, as it would provide a cool million + for further research.

Somehow though, my psychic abilities tell me he's not going to apply for The Challenge - let alone win it. But, I could, of course, be wrong...

Think of one of the implications if this were a real phenomenon - little old women hampered by arthritis could be helped immensely - to open jars, to render an assultants weapon useless and what not. In aerospace, we'd be able to install lockbolts and rivets without expensive installation tools. The list of possibilities this new faculty would provide for mankind would appear to be limited only by imagination...

 

[Mercutio]

I'm sorry--maybe it is just me, but even when I take the report at face value, I see nothing paranormal there. Metal which has been manipulated for a while bends more easily than that which has not. No news there--even in Randi's Nova video, he makes use of this fact in his demonstration of spoon-bending. What is the paranormal aspect?

So, what am I missing? If this were to be investigated under more controlled conditions, how would it be done? Use mechanical manipulators instead of hands, with the crucial difference being that one set of spoons is focused on by the psi advocates? Strain gauges to determine the plasticity of the metal (rather than a subjective report)? Or must there be physical contact of hand to spoon, in such a manner that an objective measure cannot be obtained?

 

[Interesting Ian]

But the point is, we cannot rely on honesty. We have to investigate the evidence. Simply accumulating stories like these is evidence of nothing, and there is absolutely no reason to believe this, or any other paranormal phenomenon, until the evidence is in.

Stories are not evidence, Ian.

I do not rely upon honesty. Indeed I am very wary of peoples' honesty, especially in the context of unusual claims.

So I am not saying "Wow!, these experiences of flyboy's friends prove that macro-psychokinesis takes place". If I could be 100% confident that these events took place as told then it would strongly suggest the reality of psychokinesis (since they used their own spoons and never let go of them).

But I cannot be confident that these events took place as told. But that's a far cry from simply assuming that the story is just a fabrication! It's not one single anecdote which is particular persuasive, it is anecdotes of similar phenomena, and similar psychological states precipitating such phenomena, occurring throughout the history of mankind, and across differing cultures. If such is reported then at least something interesting is going on.

 

[CFLarsen]

I do not rely upon honesty. Indeed I am very wary of peoples' honesty, especially in the context of unusual claims.

So I am not saying "Wow!, these experiences of flyboy's friends prove that macro-psychokinesis takes place". If I could be 100% confident that these events took place as told then it would strongly suggest the reality of psychokinesis (since they used their own spoons and never let go of them).

But I cannot be confident that these events took place as told. But that's a far cry from simply assuming that the story is just a fabrication! It's not one single anecdote which is particular persuasive, it is anecdotes of similar phenomena, and similar psychological states precipitating such phenomena, occurring throughout the history of mankind, and across differing cultures. If such is reported then at least something interesting is going on.

Yes, it is called "story-telling", and it has been a very important part in the history of mankind, to explain the various phenomena, like thunder, shooting stars, floods, and droughts.

But that doesn't mean that they tell the truth about the phenomena.

 

[Lucianarchy]

My friends attended the party last night. Both skeptical friends (both are Ph.D. students) are of the opinion that "something very interesting" happened. Both were briefed on potential cheating methods mentioned here, and were asked to stay vigilant.

Both experienced the metal becoming soft and pliable, and could twist the handle around with ease. Both are unwilling to completely rule out "normal causes," as they are physically able to perform similar feats on identical spoons, albeit with great effort.

They also witnessed an elderly woman next to them collapse the bowl of a spoon with apparently no effort, and no help. They thus feel they can rule out the possibility of Mr. Houck performing the feats for the audience members, but can draw no conclusions from this, as they could not confirm that the Oneida silver-plated spoon had never been tampered with. Their attempt to unbend the same bowl was unsuccessful, as was their attempt to perform the same feat on another spoon from the batch. Inconclusive.

Friend 3 also reported the metal becoming soft, and was able to perform twisting feats that apparently lie outside her normal range of strength. A later attempt by her to unbend the silverware failed, and she was also unable to cause the same outcome on an identical piece of flatware using "normal" methods.

All utensils were brought to the party by my friends, and never left their sight or hands.

Consensus: Further investigation warranted. They believe their experience is in agreement with Radin's and Crichton's testimonies.

Unfortunately, my friends are not interested in writing up a report themselves. I am relaying what they have told me, and will provide pictures when they are available. This post is meant as nothing but my report of their experience

Thank you. Flyboy. I hope we can encourage your pals to write it up some time, though. These experiences are becoming pretty commonplace, as you are finding out. It is understandable that they are perhaps still coming to terms with what has happened. But I hope they continue to develop their experiences and do their bit for the advancement of humanity. Good stuff.

 

[Lucianarchy]

What "evidence" are you talking about here?

We have a story from flyboy217, who tells of two friends of his who seems to have experienced something interesting.

We have a story, Ian. Unverifiable, and what's worse, there is no chance we will ever get to investigate this story.

Cut the "we" , Claus. I have already told you, it is you who is not able to investigate. And the reasons are entirely of your own construction. Until you see this, you will not see anything.

Put down your net. Let go of the anger.

And wait for butterflies.

 

[Interesting Ian]

Well - if Mr. Houck's claim is genuine, he should have no problem walking off with the JREF Challenge million. Taking The Challenge would be an excellent opportunity to initiate further investgation, IMO, as it would provide a cool million + for further research.

Somehow though, my psychic abilities tell me he's not going to apply for The Challenge - let alone win it. But, I could, of course, be wrong...

This is the problem you see; you're simply not interested are you. Bollocks to all the peer reviewed scientific research. If one cannot pass Randi's tests which he determines what is required to pass these tests, then no paranormal phenomena exists whatsoever. People on this board are simply not interested in getting to the truth. This is why I despise the people on here.

 

[Interesting Ian]

I'm sorry--maybe it is just me, but even when I take the report at face value, I see nothing paranormal there. Metal which has been manipulated for a while bends more easily than that which has not.

This can very easily be tested. One should be able to bend spoons after a while at home. If they could bend a particular spoon at this party, but could not do so afterwards by applying the same pressure, then what you say simply doesn't stand up.

 

[CFLarsen]

Cut the "we" , Claus. I have already told you, it is you who is not able to investigate. And the reasons are entirely of your own construction. Until you see this, you will not see anything.

Put down your net. Let go of the anger.

And wait for butterflies.

Wrong again. We are not able to investigate, because nobody here are allowed to see the evidence.

This is the problem you see; you're simply not interested are you. Bollocks to all the peer reviewed scientific research. If one cannot pass Randi's tests which he determines what is required to pass these tests, then no paranormal phenomena exists whatsoever.

You confuse the Challenge with scientific testing. It is far, far easier to pass the Challenge, yet nobody steps up to the plate.

People on this board are simply not interested in getting to the truth. This is why I despise the people on here.

Why are you here, then? Leave, if this place disgusts you so much.

This can very easily be tested. One should be able to bend spoons after a while at home. If they could bend a particular spoon at this party, but could not do so afterwards by applying the same pressure, then what you say simply doesn't stand up.

Go ahead. Test this, then. Let us know what you came up with.

 

[Anders W. Bonde]

Ian,

You just don't get it, do you? I am interested, but I do demand evidence.

Nobody claims that The JREF Challenge is an all-encompassing, peer-reviewed scientific study. Passing the JREF Challenge, however, is no problem what so ever - assuming the purported phenomenon is genuine. Passing the Challenge, which is a helluva lot easier than getting a research grant of the same size, since all Houck has to do is to demonstrate, using a mutually acceptable protocol, that he can do what he says he can do, will not only provide more than a million dollars, which can then be spent on scientific research of the phenomenon, it will also generate a huge amount of public interest - including from the World's scientific community.

So spare me your ad hominem condescending prejudices and projections.

 

[Interesting Ian]

Ian,

You just don't get it, do you? I am interested, but I do demand evidence.

Nobody claims that The JREF Challenge is an all-encompassing, peer-reviewed scientific study. Passing the JREF Challenge, however, is no problem what so ever - assuming the purported phenomenon is genuine.

I absolutely disagree. I have less than zero interest in the failure of anyone to pass the challenge. It simply doesn't mean anything to me. From what I gather Randi demands quite marked effects which can be produced on demand. I do not believe paranormal phenomena to be like this.

 

[flyboy217]

Fantastic! Now, let's do just that. Let's investigate further.



Aw, shucks.....now, why is it that this excuse always come up, even after such fantastic results are being reported? Why not investigate further? Why step back from a truly amazing discovery, that will fundamentally change the way we understand the universe?

Who is afraid of reality, the skeptics or the believers?

Very interesting post there. I mention that they believe it should be investigated further, but that they don't care to write up a report, and you assume this means they don't want to investigate further? They will be investigating further, believe me. But as we've mentioned, even a meticulous report carries no more weight as evidence than this simple story... so what would be the point? My friends are not nearly as interested in psi as I am.

As I said in my earlier post (and as billydkid clearly missed), the post was only meant as my relation of their experience. As you say, for all you know, I could be making it up, they could be making it up, etc. Nobody is asking anyone to believe anything.--this is an internet forum, after all. But as very close friends I've known my whole life, who have demonstrated exceptional reasoning skills, intelligence, and honesty, and who were highly skeptical of the claim, their testimony has got me thinking. That is all.

I offer you no more than my anecdote, meant as nothing but perhaps an interesting story. If you care to investigate yourself, Jack is having another party in California later this year.

 

[Anders W. Bonde]

Ian, I am also not interested in seeing failures to pass the Challenge - so at least we agree on that. I am interested in seeing a claim pass the test.

From what I've read on this thread about Houck's purported paranormal abilities, the effects are claimed to be both marked and producible on demand. Houck should not have a problem agreeing to a protocol then.

Assuming paranormal abilities cannot be produced upon demand, I can't really see how we then would be able to subject them to scientific scrutiny for the benefit of mankind. Still, Lucianarchy and the majority of PSI researchers do say that the effects are reproducible - which implies that setting up the right test conditions enables production of the ability on demand. And don't psychics who claim to speak with the dead do that on demand either? If a general feature of paranormal abilities is that they cannot be produced on demand, and under controlled conditions, why should we believe them to be other than empty claims?

 

[CFLarsen]

Very interesting post there. I mention that they believe it should be investigated further, but that they don't care to write up a report, and you assume this means they don't want to investigate further? They will be investigating further, believe me.

I will believe that, when I see it.

But as we've mentioned, even a meticulous report carries no more weight as evidence than this simple story... so what would be the point? My friends are not nearly as interested in psi as I am.

They were interested enough to go to the party, and they saw something interesting. So, why not? Why only keep it an unverifiable anecdote?

As I said in my earlier post (and as billydkid clearly missed), the post was only meant as my relation of their experience. As you say, for all you know, I could be making it up, they could be making it up, etc. Nobody is asking anyone to believe anything.--this is an internet forum, after all. But as very close friends I've known my whole life, who have demonstrated exceptional reasoning skills, intelligence, and honesty, and who were highly skeptical of the claim, their testimony has got me thinking. That is all.

I offer you no more than my anecdote, meant as nothing but perhaps an interesting story. If you care to investigate yourself, Jack is having another party in California later this year.

I'll see if I can make it.

The problem with your stories is that people like Lucianarchy gobble them up and take them as evidence of paranormal phenomena. There is a reason why believers can point to "many" stories like yours, and that is because people like you post them. Sure, it may be blatantly obvious that this is not evidence of anything, but it will still enter that Great Library of Anecdotes.

Be careful what you post, because it will be taken out of context, inflated and distorted.

 

[flyboy217]

I will believe that, when I see it.

I'm not sure how you plan on "seeing" my friends investigate further.

They were interested enough to go to the party, and they saw something interesting. So, why not? Why only keep it an unverifiable anecdote?

How would writing up their report in a formal fashion change it from being an unverifiable anecdote? Why wouldn't it be more prudent to investigate further first, and only then publish a report?

I'll see if I can make it.

That would be great. I would like to attend it myself.

The problem with your stories is that people like Lucianarchy gobble them up and take them as evidence of paranormal phenomena. There is a reason why believers can point to "many" stories like yours, and that is because people like you post them. Sure, it may be blatantly obvious that this is not evidence of anything, but it will still enter that Great Library of Anecdotes.

Be careful what you post, because it will be taken out of context, inflated and distorted.

As long as I am convinced that the story is accurate and honest, I should have no problem with Luci mentioning it as an anecdote, should I?