PK parties

[CFLarsen]

flyboy217,

Thanks for the link. He mentions a "metallurgical laboratory", but I can't seem to find out what lab he used. Do you know?

 

[flyboy217]

flyboy217,

Thanks for the link. He mentions a "metallurgical laboratory", but I can't seem to find out what lab he used. Do you know?

http://www.jackhouck.com/psd.shtml

It would appear he submitted an official request to the McDonnell Douglas Astronautics laboratory.

 

[CFLarsen]

It would appear he submitted an official request to the McDonnell Douglas Astronautics laboratory.

Perhaps. But the rods he speak of were made of steel. Those he submitted to McDDA was made of aluminum:

(Emphasis mine)

From the second link:

Two bent transparent plastic spoons, one undeformed "control" spoon, two bent 3/8-inch (9.5m) diameter aluminum rods and a fractured plastic spoon and a fork were submitted to the Metallurgical Laboratory for examination.

From the first link:

During the PK Party held April 20, 1981, a steel rod of 0.63 cm diameter appeared to change dramatically in surface color when "warm-formed" by Tim. This rod was submitted to a metallurgical laboratory for analysis. The results are contained in this report.

...


At the April 20, 1981, PK Party
...
Prior to the party, I prepared a number of steel rods to be warm-formed by participants.
...
I cut the rod into three sections; one was kept in another room as a control rod, and the other two were available for warm-forming at the party. The ends were filed so that nobody would be cut. Tim took one of these rods and warm-formed it during a period of approximately 15 min. He noted that when the rod became warm and was easily malleable, a permanent color change occurred over the entire surface of the rod (not just where the bend occurred). This could not be explained as the effects of physical force.

The warm-formed rod and its control rod were submitted to a metallurgical laboratory for a scanning electron microscope (SEM) analysis of the surfaces of both specimens.

This is known as "bait and switch".

 

[flyboy217]

Perhaps. But the rods he speak of were made of steel. Those he submitted to McDDA was made of aluminum:

...

This is known as "bait and switch".

The links are not meant to be related, I think. He speaks in a lot of places of bending various metal bars. On the other hand, he does mention that the analysis in the first link was done by "Victor Kerlins," and gives a citation. Presumably this is the same V. Kerlins who signed the second lab study: "V. Kerlins, Materials & Processes - Metallurgy Design & Technology."

Not sure what to make of it yet. I'm not ready to draw any conclusions until my friends give me their report of this coming Friday's event.

 

[CFLarsen]

The links are not meant to be related, I think. He speaks in a lot of places of bending various metal bars. On the other hand, he does mention that the analysis in the first link was done by "Victor Kerlins," and gives a citation. Presumably this is the same V. Kerlins who signed the second lab study: "V. Kerlins, Materials & Processes - Metallurgy Design & Technology."

Not sure what to make of it yet. I'm not ready to draw any conclusions until my friends give me their report of this coming Friday's event.

If the links are not meant to be related, why did you post the second link? I asked for the name of the lab which had tested the steel rods, and you gave me a link where plastic spoons and aluminum rods had been tested.

I'm sorry, but I am a wee bit confused.

So far, we do not know which metallurgic lab tested the steel rods. Which means we cannot check the claims that the steel rods were, in fact, tested at a metallurgic lab at all.

Do you agree?

 

[flyboy217]

If the links are not meant to be related, why did you post the second link? I asked for the name of the lab which had tested the steel rods, and you gave me a link where plastic spoons and aluminum rods had been tested.

Why did I post the second link? Because it very well could have been in answer to your first question, which was:

I was hoping that you could direct us to something more than your own accounts. There are no results from metallurgic labs?

I was posting results from a named metallurgical lab.

I'm sorry, but I am a wee bit confused.

So far, we do not know which metallurgic lab tested the steel rods. Which means we cannot check the claims that the steel rods were, in fact, tested at a metallurgic lab at all.

Do you agree?

We actually can check this. He mentions the metallurgist by name ("Victor Kerlins"), who happens to be the same metallurgist who tested the aluminum rods, and gives a citation ("ARCHAEUS 2, 1 (Summer 1984)").

I haven't checked it personally, but I'd be interested to see what you learn. In the meantime, I'm making no claims on his behalf.

 

[CFLarsen]

The only references I could find about Victor Kerlins are listings in alumni. Nothing about what he does for a living. Nothing about where he works. Nada.

Archaeus is a theosophic term. I could only find one other reference, on none other than the (in) famous Roger Coghill's website.

A PUHARICH Changes in global weather and biological systems with a review of the biological effects of ELF radiation from Tesla to the present. Archaeus 2 (1): 51-75 (1984)
Source

Yes, that A Puharich, who has written books about Uri Geller, and has backed him for many years.

Coghill? Blavatsky? Puharich? Geller?

Why am I less than impressed?

 

[flyboy217]

The only references I could find about Victor Kerlins are listings in alumni. Nothing about what he does for a living. Nothing about where he works. Nada.

This might be a hint:

V. Kerlins
Materials & Processes - Metallurgy Design & Technology

Considering he signed the MDD Materials & Processes Laboratory Report, I would be led to believe he is a Metallurgy Design & Technology Engineer at McDonnell Douglas. Or maybe the whole thing is forged.

Archaeus is a theosophic term. I could only find one other reference, on none other than the (in) famous Roger Coghill's website.

I only mention this as a possible reference to check if V. Kerlins did indeed perform the analysis of the steel rods, not to confirm or dismiss the finding of Mr. Houck's papers.

What about the signed lab results on the aluminum rods? Worthless?

 

[Lucianarchy]

I was hoping that you could direct us to something more than your own accounts. There are no results from metallurgic labs?

Why do you accept this kind of evidence, when you simultaneously insist that lab results are the only thing?

I think you'll find Mr Fly has provided you with what you asked for. Lab results.

I have spoken with metallurgist Eldon Byrd a bit about this. He can attest to the phenomena too.

 

[Timble]

This Eldon Byrd?

Uri Geller's chum?

At:
http://www.uri-geller.com/books/geller-papers/g6.htm

 

[CFLarsen]

This might be a hint:

Thank you.

Considering he signed the MDD Materials & Processes Laboratory Report, I would be led to believe he is a Metallurgy Design & Technology Engineer at McDonnell Douglas. Or maybe the whole thing is forged.

Perhaps.

I only mention this as a possible reference to check if V. Kerlins did indeed perform the analysis of the steel rods, not to confirm or dismiss the finding of Mr. Houck's papers.

As it is, we don't have evidence that he did indeed perform the analysis of the steel rods.

What about the signed lab results on the aluminum rods? Worthless?

Pure aluminum is soft and lacks strength, but alloyed with small amounts of copper, magnesium, silicon, manganese, or other elements impart a variety of useful properties.

I think you'll find Mr Fly has provided you with what you asked for. Lab results.

Not of the steel rods.

I have spoken with metallurgist Eldon Byrd a bit about this. He can attest to the phenomena too.

Let him come on this board and state that. Your word is worth nothing.


Edited to add: I see Timble was quicker than me...

 

[Anders W. Bonde]

From said Eldon Byrd's report as shown in the link Timble kindly provided:

...snip...How did Geller achieve such results? At the present I have no scientific explanation for what happened during both testing periods. I can say that the possibility of fraud on Geller's part can be virtually ruled out....snip...

Even Byrd cannot rule out conjuring (i.e. fraud), hence the emergency exit "virtually". With Geller's massive history of fraud and deception (well, it's his job!), I am not at all surprised that Byrd cannot rule out fraud entirely. Anyone supportive of Geller's paranormal abilities (not his abilities as a conjurer) should, IMHO, not be regarded as a reliable witness.

Still, the best arbiter of truth would be Geller's replication of experiments under properly controlled conditions. Why doesn't Geller, if his skills indeed are paranormal in nature, just run away with the JREF million?

 

[CFLarsen]

What, no scientific explanation? I'm appalled!!!!

Lucianarchy, what exactly did Byrd say to you about this? Did he claim that the rods had been tested in a lab?

 

[flyboy217]

Video

The video from Mr. Houck has arrived. Unfortunately, I have no VCR, so will have to wait til I get back in town and can use a friend's. Perhaps I can also digitize it and present it here.


Also, you might find the following link interesting. Although it is hosted on Geller's site, it is an excerpt from a book by Kit Pedler:

http://www.uri-geller.com/books/mind-over-matter/momk07.htm

For a taste, it starts with:

What do I see on the stills of Uri Geller stroking a spoon? I see him holding a teaspoon and stroking it; after a while, it bends and finally breaks in two. At least that is true if the frames of the film are in their actual sequence. As a matter of fact I do not find that film at all interesting, because it is not an experiment; the film was made some time ago, and all I can do now is to talk to the director or Uri Geller about what happened in the past. We cannot be sure where the spoon came from and we do not actually know whether Geller bent it with ordinary pressure from his hands. However, by looking at the actual film in motion, I can get a little more information because his fingers do not appear to be touching the spoon with any force, certainly not enough to bend it: but this is still not nearly sufficient information. An experimenter has to declare everything he did very clearly indeed, so that other people have a chance of repeating his work.

Sounds reasonable so far, I think. Well, read the link for yourself.

 

[Lucianarchy]

Flyboy, although Dr Byrd has sadly left this mortal coil, I would be happy to pass on some of the information regarding this phenomena he personally gave me a few years ago, shortly before his death. I would do this in the spirit of good faith and the positive nature of your own personal research. PM me if you want them.

Best wishes.

 

[CFLarsen]

Flyboy, although Dr Byrd has sadly left this mortal coil, I would be happy to pass on some of the information regarding this phenomena he personally gave me a few years ago, shortly before his death. I would do this in the spirit of good faith and the positive nature of your own personal research. PM me if you want them.

Best wishes.

Why keep it secret? You claimed that Byrd could "attest" to the phenomena, but we aren't allowed to hear it?

We should just take your word for it?

I have spoken with metallurgist Eldon Byrd a bit about this. He can attest to the phenomena too.

Hmmm......you didn't know he was dead?

Byrd is sure an interesting fellow:

"had been arrested for possession with intent to distribute obscene materials involving children, and had pled guilty to a reduced charge of possession with intent to distribute obscene materials."
Source

Nice company you keep, Lucianarchy...

 

[Lucianarchy]

Why keep it secret? You claimed that Byrd could "attest" to the phenomena, but we aren't allowed to hear it?

These were personal communications. But now he has died, I believe it would be appropriate to pass them on to whoever I think fit.

 

[Lucianarchy]

Nice company you keep, Lucianarchy...

I learned many years ago when I was working with prisoners and ex-prisoners on treatment programmes, that it is crucial to seperate behaviour from the 'self'. Some of the most violent and dishonest people I have ever met still have an aspect that is loveable. It is a horrible barrier to cross, but once you seperate the negative behaviour and engage with the actual self, you have more chance of creating positive change.

 

[Lucianarchy]

Derailed, again. Sorry. I'll shut up now.

 

[CFLarsen]

These were personal communications. But now he has died, I believe it would be appropriate to pass them on to whoever I think fit.

That's interesting, because when you first referred to Byrd, you spoke of him in the present tense.

Do you believe it is "fit" to tell me?

I learned many years ago when I was working with prisoners and ex-prisoners on treatment programmes, that it is crucial to seperate behaviour from the 'self'. Some of the most violent and dishonest people I have ever met still have an aspect that is loveable. It is a horrible barrier to cross, but once you seperate the negative behaviour and engage with the actual self, you have more chance of creating positive change.

That's also interesting, because you know nothing of me than what I post here. Yet, you are very quick to paint me as a very bad character. You've smeared me, you've tried to silence me, you've lied about me.

It seems that your words contradict your actions.