PK parties

[Lucianarchy]

I see no reason to grant the benefit of the doubt to your correspondent who is, if I recall correctly, you (a non-skeptic) recalling a conversation with Russell Targ (a hard-core non-skeptic) in which he recounts the experiences of himself and another non-skeptic. This anecdotal evidence is flawed.

Don, those are Dr Targ's exact words, verbatim. I still posess a copy of them, and I can provide you with his personal contact details if you like.

Trying to personally discredit him in your crass, opinionated manner, is not skepticism, at all.

 

[Lucianarchy]

If all this bending of spoon bowl and metal rods was so easy, you would have physicians flocking to examine it - or Houck et al. clamoring to have it examined. A million dollars could also come his way.

lol! Who said any of that has not happened?!

 

[Lucianarchy]

The fact that the correspondent was not allowed to handle the bar in question causes major alarm bells to ring. [/B]

"Holding one of these rods in my two hands, I had the experience of it getting springy. As I bent it back and forth with my eyes shut, I finally had the impression that it froze in the bent position. This turned out to be about 30 degrees. "

emphasis mine

 

[Ceinwyn]

Russell Targ believes that Uri Geller's powers come from aliens. So for him to believe that he can bend a bar with his mind doesn't hold much water for me.

Would I be presumptive to ask for any video documentation? Oh, heavens no. There will be none forthcoming.

No proof. No evidence. He just believes it.

Sorry Luci. Unconvincing.

 

[The Don]

"Holding one of these rods in my two hands, I had the experience of it getting springy. As I bent it back and forth with my eyes shut, I finally had the impression that it froze in the bent position. This turned out to be about 30 degrees. "

emphasis mine

Yes so I hand you one bar which you bend (because it's designed to do so) and then I hand you a superficially similar one for you and your colleagues to examine (ine that doesn't bend).

Why is it SO hard for you to understand that these two bars could be quite different ?

Trying to personally discredit him in your crass, opinionated manner, is not skepticism, at all.

I'm just saying that he has been shown time and again to be a very partial witness who seems willing to accept the very flimsiest of evidence it supports his case.

Being charitable to Dr. Targ, perhaps his recollection of the encounter with Houck has changed over time and that what he remembers is much more impressive than what actually happened. Whatever, the bar he and his sons examined for non-bendiness was a completely different bar to the one he bent in the first place.

 

[TheBoyPaj]

he gets to decide what is a "positive result" (perhaps it's just being in a room with a bent spoon" and he also provides this figure with no supporting evidence.

"At this party Houck (a metallurgist from Boeing) had one-foot long, 3/8 diameter aluminum rods as objects for bending. Holding one of these rods in my two hands, I had the experience of it getting springy. As I bent it back and forth with my eyes shut, I finally had the impression that it froze in the bent position. This turned out to be about 30 degrees.

Neither I, nor my two athletic sons could bend a similar rod whatsoever, without putting it over a knee, which is again quite a painful undertaking."

How does this quote support the claim of 85% of participants having a positive outcome? Do you deny that Houck has complete "ownership" of this claim, and that there is no evidence to suggest that this number of people actually bend the silverware?

 

[Darat]

Re: Re: PK parties

It is something, like bending a key, that can be done probably pretty easily with practice.

Are you referring to a standard "yale" type key made of whatever they are normally made of?



I’ve tried to bend one before with my hands and I could never get enough leverage with just my hand - how can you bend these with your just hands? I’ve seen someone do a “key bending”, not a magician, he used a metal ring on his finger and he couldn’t do it without that.)

 

[Ceinwyn]

Re: Re: Re: PK parties

Are you referring to a standard "yale" type key made of whatever they are normally made of?

I’ve tried to bend one before with my hands and I could never get enough leverage with just my hand - how can you bend these with your just hands? I’ve seen someone do a “key bending”, not a magician, he used a metal ring on his finger and he couldn’t do it without that.)

Sleight of hand. It's a common magician trick.

You may think you weren't fooled...but you were.

 

[Matabiri]

Re: Re: Re: PK parties

I’ve tried to bend one before with my hands and I could never get enough leverage with just my hand - how can you bend these with your just hands? I’ve seen someone do a “key bending”, not a magician, he used a metal ring on his finger and he couldn’t do it without that.)

(You do realise that across the world, people sitting in front of computers have just ruined their house-key, and will be unable to get home tonight...?)

Finger-strength is fairly easy to train - ask any rock-climber. So it may be possible with some training. But even if you can, with the leverage available, doing it subtlely may be the hard part.

 

[Darat]

Re: Re: Re: Re: PK parties

Sleight of hand. It's a common magician trick.

You may think you weren't fooled...but you were.

In this case I know I wasn't.

The trick way was also done a in a "psychics revealed" show on UK TV not so long ago, and that magician did use sleight-of-hand and misdirection to bend the key either against a counter top or another key - can't remember which.

But the person I saw doing it with the metal ring was using the ring so he could do the "magic bend" in his hand, it just let him apply enough leverage by holding the fat end and putting the pointy end on the metal ring.

 

[chillzero]

"Holding one of these rods in my two hands, I had the experience of it getting springy. As I bent it back and forth with my eyes shut, I finally had the impression that it froze in the bent position. This turned out to be about 30 degrees. "

emphasis mine

Did no-one else notice something about this....
the guy has his eyes CLOSED. He is describing the feeling of what he thinks is happening in his hands.

he 'had the experience.....' and 'had the impression...'

hmmmmm.... perception tricks , anyone?
or maybe even... gasp.. hypnosis/self hypnosis?

I used to love the 'rubber pencil' trick when I was a kid.

 

[TheBoyPaj]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: PK parties

The trick way was also done a in a "psychics revealed" show on UK TV not so long ago, and that magician did use sleight-of-hand and misdirection to bend the key either against a counter top or another key - can't remember which.

I seem to remember he used two keys. He placed the key to be bent inside the hole of the other.

 

[Pragmatist]

The described effects could be easily obtained with a shape memory alloy. And some indium alloys become plastic at just above body temperature but are very hard when cold.

The other thing that strikes me was the comment about not being able to bend a 3/8th inch aluminium bar - sounds a bit wussy to me!

I also noticed in the original description that Houck says something to the effect that "small ladies" can esily bend 1/2 inch steel rods, but then further on he says:

"Sometimes people bring ridiculous things to the party like crow bars, heavy chains, etc. They are really into challenging and fundamentally are not interested in experiencing the phenomena themselves."

So these crowbars are presumably NOT 1/2 inch steel? My crowbar at home is less than 1/2 inch and it's steel. Perhaps the real key there is the word "bring".

Further on there is a comment about Eldon Byrd in Japan where he says the Japanese bent metal AND CHOPSTICKS. Aren't chopsticks usually made of WOOD? And then near the end there are comments about bending plastic. Which is all very well except for the "explanation" in the middle about transdimensional forces affecting the grain structure of METAL. So does the wood and plastic turn into metal, get bent and then transmute back to wood or plastic? Hmmm....

 

[Lucianarchy]

Yes so I hand you one bar which you bend (because it's designed to do so) and then I hand you a superficially similar one for you and your colleagues to examine (ine that doesn't bend).

Why is it SO hard for you to understand that these two bars could be quite different ?

I'm just saying that he has been shown time and again to be a very partial witness who seems willing to accept the very flimsiest of evidence it supports his case.

Being charitable to Dr. Targ, perhaps his recollection of the encounter with Houck has changed over time and that what he remembers is much more impressive than what actually happened. Whatever, the bar he and his sons examined for non-bendiness was a completely different bar to the one he bent in the first place.

Don, I note you still prefer to employ wishful thinking and supposition ahead of skepticism. I can't argue against that. since it's based on your own beliefs. However, apart from reminding you that Targ is not only a govt sponsored physicist, he is a trained, performing stage magician, which you seem to conveniently step over, let me also remind you that you have been offered his contact details so you can raise your 'issues' directly, instead of making baseless and completely innacurate assumptions. If you PM me I will be happy to pass them on to you.

 

[CFLarsen]

Targ is not only a govt sponsored physicist

Not for a very long time. The support was withdrawn, because nothing was found. Which you seem to conveniently step over.

he is a trained, performing stage magician

Is Targ a professional or amateur magician? By whom was he trained by?

 

[steenkh]

Targ is not only a govt sponsored physicist, he is a trained, performing stage magician
[/B]

The fact that he is paid by the government is not a guarantee of anything. His being a trained stage magician should give him better insight into the possible tricks involved, but again, there is no guarantee that this insight is used.

The man's reputation alone almost guarantees that he is not using insight in anything at all!

 

[Lucianarchy]

The fact that he is paid by the government is not a guarantee of anything. His being a trained stage magician should give him better insight into the possible tricks involved, but again, there is no guarantee that this insight is used.

The man's reputation alone almost guarantees that he is not using insight in anything at all!

Ah, I see, you would rather weigh up your own baseless opinion and possibly libelous assertions against a proven track record of integrity, honesty and professional excellence?

This is what happens in pseudo-skepticism, they get so far, unable to push the bar any higher, so resort to the most crass and obvious attempts to personally discredit someone. I am sure these guys blank off in their own minds the fact that intelligent skeptics can read and draw their own conclusions from such desperate needs.

 

[The Don]

Ah, I see, you would rather weigh up your own baseless opinion and possibly libelous assertions against a proven track record of integrity, honesty and professional excellence?

I realise that I'm as guilty as anyone at derailing this thread into a "is Targ a credible witness" thread where instead we should be considering the PK parties and whether they are credible.

I've already mentioned a number of times the issues with the experiments as described. I shall reiterate them here.

- The evidence offered is anecdotal
- Houck sets his own "success" levels and then doesn't back them up with evidence
- The account you offer by way of proof is clearly flawed because
- eyes were closed when bending occured
- the participants were asked to examine a completely different bar to that bent
- Houck appears to be in control of the items being bent, where this is not the case he complains:

Sometimes people bring ridiculous things to the party like crow bars, heavy chains, etc. They are really into challenging and fundamentally are not interested in experiencing the phenomena themselves

So yeah, I think there is room for healthy skepticism about this one.

 

[sackett]

Steel chopsticks

. . . . . the Japanese bent metal AND CHOPSTICKS. Aren't chopsticks usually made of WOOD? . . . .

You sometimes encounter steel chopsticks. I think the Koreans favor them. (Some martial arts types use them as weapons, but that's another story.) They're little things, not much harder to bend than a fork.

But in any case, I'd sure rather try to bend steel than wood! :crack!: and the sleight of hand is revealed. "Hey, you said you was usin' yer mind, palsy! Gimme our money back!"

No, I'm wrong about that: the faithful accept trickery as innocently as baby birds. Sad.

 

[Ed]

Re: Re: Re: PK parties

With respect, the Houck parties are not the same thing at all.
I did some research for someone a few years ago on this very subject and during an interview with Dr Russell Targ he gave me this first hand account of the Houck party.:

"My co-author Jane Katra, a spiritual healer with small delicate hands, rolled up the bowl of a teaspoon at a PK party with Jack Hauk last year. She was quietly meditating (waiting for the party to end, so that we could go home) when she screamed!
The bowl rolled up 180 degrees in her closed fist, and frightened her. We took a picture of the spoon and put it, with its picture into a plastic bag. By the time we arrived home, the bowl had bent an additional 90 degrees, 270 in all.

I wouldn't know how to create such a smooth roll, even if I took a spoon to the lab. At the party, I later bent the bowl of a similar spoon by brute force, damaging my hand in the process. The bowl creased sharply as I broke the back of the bowl. It looked nothing like Jane's.

The following month we had another opportunity to go to a PK party. Northern California does have some advantages. At this party Houck (a metallurgist from Boeing) had one-foot long, 3/8 diameter aluminum rods as objects for bending. Holding one of these rods in my two hands, I had the experience of it getting springy. As I bent it back and forth with my eyes shut, I finally had the impression that it froze in the bent position. This turned out to be about 30 degrees.

Neither I, nor my two athletic sons could bend a similar rod whatsoever, without putting it over a knee, which is again quite a painful undertaking."

Ummm....

I thought that that sounded familiar ...

It was, it is from here: http://www.uri-geller.com/mindbending.htm

I asked Russel Targ to comment on his experiences resulting from the SRI experiments:


" Uri was at our laboratory at SRI for six weeks in 1973. He showed remarkable ESP perceptual ability to describe and draw hidden pictures. He was by no means the best person to visit our lab and carry out this type of remote viewing, but he was certainly better than the average bear in this capability. He did not bend any metal under acceptably controlled conditions, but I have since that time seen and done paranormal bending under excellent conditions."

He went on to give an account of his personal experiences of PK:

"My co-author Jane Katra, a spiritual healer with small delicate hands, rolled up the bowl of a teaspoon at a PK party with Jack Hauk last year. She was quietly meditating (waiting for the party to end, so that we could go home) when she screamed!
The bowl rolled up 180 degrees in her closed fist, and frightened her. We took a picture of the spoon and put it, with its picture into a plastic bag. By the time we arrived home, the bowl had bent an additional 90 degrees, 270 in all. I wouldn't know how to create such a smooth roll, even if I took a spoon to the lab. At the party, I later bent the bowl of a similar spoon by brute force, damaging my hand in the process. The bowl creased sharply as I broke the back of the bowl. It looked nothing like Jane's.
The following month we had another opportunity to go to a PK party. Northern California does have some advantages. At this party Hauk (a metallurgist from Boeing) had one-foot long, 3/8 diameter aluminum rods as objects for bending. Holding one of these rods in my two hands, I had the experience of it getting springy. As I bent it back and forth with my eyes shut, I finally had the impression that it froze in the bent position. This turned out to be about 30 degrees.
Neither I, nor my two athletic sons could bend a similar rod whatsoever, without putting it over a knee, which is again quite a painful undertaking."

So the question is, did you lie or plagerize or is that web site yours? If it is not yours then the author lies when he says

I asked Russel Targ to comment on his experiences resulting from the SRI experiments

Which is it?