PK parties

[Psiload]

As you are someone who proudly uses a rapist for his avatar, your opinions are, to say the least, worthless.

Actually, that's a picture of an actor who portrayed a rapist in a movie.


Poor Luci, still having trouble with the whole fantasy/reality interface thing, huh?

 

[Lucianarchy]

Please, Lucian. Just send one of these people down here to Fort Lauderdale. He can impress me with his creative uses of silverware, take in a few days of fun and sun, and I'll swing him by the JREF offices, where his little vacation will more than pay for itself. I'll stand right there--I won't even let James dearest cheat. Deal? Deal.

Peace,
- B

'You payin'? Seriously though, these things are for science, not carnival type side-show challenges, of which I am highly skeptical. Don't get me wrong, Randi's a great entertainer, showman and a superb intro to the world of skepticism. But as mature, knowledgeable skeptics, some of us have discovered there's more behind the curtain than we were perhaps lead to believe. We've moved on from 'Tom and Jerry' skepticism to the lab; scientific method and replication. Thanks for the offer though.

 

[Lucianarchy]

Actually, that's a picture of an actor who portrayed a rapist in a movie.

Oh, right. You're just a McDowell fan then. I remain skeptical though, as you have never changed your avatar to any other of his characters, and your attitude towards Targ's deceased daughter smacks of the same mind-set and disregard for simple human dignity as that of a rapist, so perhaps you can understand the confusion. But as I said, I doubt it.

 

[CFLarsen]

...and your attitude towards Targ's deceased daughter smacks of the same mind-set and disregard for simple human dignity as that of a rapist, so perhaps you can understand the confusion. But as I said, I doubt it.

Hello? Lucianarchy?

Elizabeth Targ lied.

OK?

 

[Ed]

Oh, right. You're just a McDowell fan then. I remain skeptical though, as you have never changed your avatar to any other of his characters, and your attitude towards Targ's deceased daughter smacks of the same mind-set and disregard for simple human dignity as that of a rapist, so perhaps you can understand the confusion. But as I said, I doubt it.

Well, my avatar is a mass murderer, anti-semite, hypocrite, jew putter in large fish, jew turner to stone, jew boil causer, only begotten jew son crucifier, suborner of child murder, incest, rape, pillage and so on.

Targ's deceased daughter, the Late Targ, was a lieing weasel. She gave false hope to very ill people (and still does) because honesty and scientific integrity played second fiddle to making up evidence for her silly, and now thankfully dead, belief system. She was evil. About on a par with a priest who takes his position of propriety, authority and rectitude and uses it to bugger kids. A bit more subtle but of a piece. I hope her death was lonely.

edit... I don't really mean that. But this world is a better place with her out of it.

 

[flyboy217]

And you have the proof in Michael Crichton's account. He says that at one point he was getting a bit p*ssed off that his spoon wasn't bending when everyone else's was, so he tried to bend it by brute force. And he couldn't (more on that in a moment). Then Houck came along, took it from him, did something, handed it back and then it started to bend.

Houck came along and took it from him? Are you just making this up? Read:

I was sitting on the floor next to Judith and Anne-Marie. They had finished shouting at their spoons, and now were rubbing them between their fingers, but nothing was happening. I was also rubbing a spoon, but nothing was happening for me, either. I felt foolish. As we rubbed, a gloom descended over the three of us.

Rubbing her spoon, Anne-Marie said, "I don't think this is going to work. This is silly. I just don't see how it can work."

I looked down at her hands. Her spoon was bending.

"Look, Anne-Marie. . . ."

Anne-Marie laughed. Her spoon was like rubber. She easily twisted the spoon into knots.

Suddenly Judith's spoon began to bend, too. She was able to bend the bowl in half. All around me, spoons were bending. My spoon remained stiff and solid. I rubbed it dutifully, but it wasn't even getting warm.

I felt annoyed. The hell with it, I thought, Ill bend it with sheer force. I tried: the neck of the spoon would bend, of course, but the bowl itself wouldn't bend. I was hurting my fingers trying I relaxed. Perhaps it wasn't going to happen for me. Jack Houck had said a few people couldn't bend spoons. Maybe I was one.

"Congratulations," Judith said to me.

"What?"

I looked down. My spoon had begun to bend. I hadn't even reaised. The metal was completely pliable, like soft plastic. It wasn't particularly hot, either, just slightly warm. I easily bent the bowl of the spoon in half, using only my fingertips. This didn't require any pressure at all, just guiding with my fingertips.

Finally, working on the Pragmatist principle that hard core woo's usually have something to sell, I thought it may be worth seeing if Houck had anything related to sell. He does. He just happens to sell a software program that is designed to "tune up" your psychic powers in preparation for remote viewing, spoon bending etc...

I can't say that the whole thing is a trick or that psychic powers are NOT involved. But it definitely LOOKS suspicious.

Hmm, that is interesting. That could be a flag. Got a link?

I, too, cannot confirm anything either way. I wasn't there. That is why, as I keep saying, I'm going to (1) go to one myself or better (2) host one myself.

 

[Lucianarchy]

Hello? Lucianarchy?

Elizabeth Targ lied.

OK?

And here we have another example of pseudo-skeptics in action; Claus Larsen and co., defending the glamourisation of rape and attacking the dead.

Claus, let me remind you, Elizabeth Targ has nothing to do with this discussion.

 

[Ed]

And here we have another example of pseudo-skeptics in action; Claus Laresn, defending the glamourisation of rape and attacking the dead.

Claus, let me remind you, Elizabeth Targ has nothing to do with this discussion.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.12/prayer.html

I thought that you believed in survival, would that not make her fair game?

What ever happened to McDowel? Seems he is somewhere below the Lou(is) Gosset range now. Odd.

 

[flyboy217]

In fact, come to think of it, is there any evidence that the actual bowl bends took place during one of the parties, performed by an unwitting guest?

If you consider the testimony of Crichton and Radin (and the professors at Arizona) to be valid, then clearly yes. Without that, I'd be pretty mum.

 

[CFLarsen]

And here we have another example of pseudo-skeptics in action; Claus Larsen and co., defending the glamourisation of rape and attacking the dead.

What are you talking about? How do I defend "the glamourisation of rape and attacking the dead"? I point out that E. Targ lied. That is a fact, Lucianarchy.

I have no idea what you are talking about re. "the glamourisation of rape". I would like a clarification.

Claus, let me remind you, Elizabeth Targ has nothing to do with this discussion.

Then don't bring up the subject of "Targ the liar".

But hey, if you want to talk about Russell, let's do that:

Is Targ a professional or amateur magician? By whom was he trained by?

 

[Psiload]

Oh, right. You're just a McDowell fan then. I remain skeptical though, as you have never changed your avatar to any other of his characters, and your attitude towards Targ's deceased daughter smacks of the same mind-set and disregard for simple human dignity as that of a rapist, so perhaps you can understand the confusion. But as I said, I doubt it.

I like you, Luci... you're silly.

I"d change my avatar to this:

But then you'd probably accuse me of having the mind-set of sexual deviant.

Anyhoo, as far as my opinion of Targ's deceased daughter... it isn't... opinion that is. She was, in fact, a liar.

***no rapists were glamourized during the editing of this post***

 

[Pragmatist]

Houck came along and took it from him? Are you just making this up? Read:

Apologies, I got two different accounts mixed up. I did a quick scan of several dozen web sites relating to Houck's exploits, one of which mentioned Crichton, another after that was from an account by Laura Lee:

From: http://www.lauralee.com/index.cgi?page=articles/threshol.htm

The woman sitting across from me was having trouble with her spoon, until
the instructor, Jack Houck (who gives spoon bending workshops across
the country) came by and held the spoon for a few seconds, which made
it pliable enough for her to easily bend it, and though the effect
didn&'t last long, she got it going again on her own.

There's another interesting account here:

http://starbulletin.com/2002/08/06/features/story2.html

Hmm, that is interesting. That could be a flag. Got a link?

I, too, cannot confirm anything either way. I wasn't there. That is why, as I keep saying, I'm going to (1) go to one myself or better (2) host one myself.

From: http://groups.google.com/groups?q="...&selm=2r1m42$dhq@search01.news.aol.com&rnum=1

Intuition Trainer (Psychic Reward) (Mfg. Sugg. $49.95) Fun and entertaining
like a computer game, this program is -- at the same time --the first
scientifically proven system for training your intuitive powers. Created by
researchers Alan Vaugn and Jack Houck, Psychic Reward increases your ability to
sense the future--the key to successful decisions in every area of life, from
investment to marriage.

It's also advertized on other sites as being a general "psi" developer.

There is an interesting reference to it here, in an article from Skeptical Inquirer:

http://articles.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843/is_3_25/ai_74523980

 

[Lucianarchy]

Don, are you going to put your issues to Dr Targ, or not?

I can help you with this, and it'd be good to have some direct feedback on the forum, straight from the source, rather than the opinion of an arm-chair skeptic. Don't you agree?

 

[flyboy217]

Apologies, I got two different accounts mixed up. I did a quick scan of several dozen web sites relating to Houck's exploits, one of which mentioned Crichton, another after that was from an account by Laura Lee:

From: http://www.lauralee.com/index.cgi?page=articles/threshol.htm

"Laura Lee is only half joking when she says she has always felt aliens must have abandoned her here by mistake; and that though she doesn’t quite get this world, or fit in she is trying to make the most of it now!"

Yes, I'll take what she says with a grain of salt. Also, what's the deal with her not capitalizing anything on that page? Hurts to read.

In any case, that's not what happened in Crichton's case. He and his family members were all holding theirs when they "spontaneously bent." I find his following account the most telling:

A year later, I mentioned to an M.I.T. professor that I had bent spoons. He frowned in silence for a while. "There's a way to bend spoons," he said, "by a trick."

"I think so," I said. "But I don't know the trick."

The professor was silent for a while longer. "You personally bent spoons?

"Yes."

Then he went through the whole thing. Where did I get the spoons? How did I know the spoons had not been previously "treated"? Did anyone help me to bend the spoons? Did anyone touch me while I was bending, or substitute a bent spoon into my hands... He went on like this for a while. I tried to explain the quality of the room that night, and how impossible it was that everyone could have been tricked.

"So you believe the spoons bent?"

"Yes."

"Did you investigate why the spoons bent?"

"No," I said.

"You mean you experienced this extraordinary phenomenon and you didn't try to explain it?"

"No," I said.

"That's very strange," he said. "I would say that your behavior is a pathological denial of what happened to you. This incredible experience occurs and you do nothing to investigate it at all?"

"I don't see why it's pathological," I said. "I don't go investigating why everything in the world happens. For example, I know that, if I bend a wire rapidly, the wire will get hot and break-but I don't really know why that happens. I don't think it's my job to rush out and find out why. In this case, spoon bending, the room was full of people doing the same thing, and it seemed very ordinary. Kind of boring."

In fact, this sense of boredom seem to me often to accompany "psychic" phenomena. At first the event appears exciting and mysterious, but very quickly it becomes so mundane that it can no longer hold your interest. This seems to me to confirm the idea that so-called psychic or paranormal phenomena are misnamed. There's nothing abnormal about them. On the contrary, they're utterly normal. We've just forgotten we can do them. The minute we do do them, we recognize them for what they are, and we think, so what? Spoon bending is like doing the laundry, or riding a bicycle. No big deal. Not really worth much conversation.

Crichton's full text can be found here:

http://www.uri-geller.com/mct27.htm

(Yes, I realize who is hosting it. But I've read the book itself, and the text is accurate).

From: http://groups.google.com/groups?q="...&selm=2r1m42$dhq@search01.news.aol.com&rnum=1

Intuition Trainer (Psychic Reward) (Mfg. Sugg. $49.95) Fun and entertaining
like a computer game, this program is -- at the same time --the first
scientifically proven system for training your intuitive powers. Created by
researchers Alan Vaugn and Jack Houck, Psychic Reward increases your ability to
sense the future--the key to successful decisions in every area of life, from
investment to marriage.

It's also advertized on other sites as being a general "psi" developer.

There is an interesting reference to it here, in an article from Skeptical Inquirer:

http://articles.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843/is_3_25/ai_74523980

Wonder why he doesn't advertise this on his own site. Also, his PK parties cost next to nothing. It looks like whatever money is made is for renting out the place and flying him out (to such exotic locales as Columbus, Ohio).

 

[Nucular]

If you consider the testimony of Crichton and Radin (and the professors at Arizona) to be valid, then clearly yes. Without that, I'd be pretty mum.

Right, I didn't read the accounts properly after wondering that, apologies.

That to me then - assuming the accounts are valid (and Radin has been pretty good regarding other 'psychic' phenomena in the past, IIRC, though that doesn't necessarily prove his reliability in this case) - reduces the explanation of the bowl-bending phenomenon to about two of the already suggested possibilities:

1a) Gimmicked spoon: spoons made of weird metal Houck worked with at Boeing

1b) Gimmicked spoon: as Ed suggested, a very thin bowl

2) An actual 'psychic' phenomenon

Something else, probably not so likely, that occurs is a less 'bowled' bowl, which, in thin metal, would make it much easier to bend - looking at the picture I attached before, I'm not entirely sure that they're a completely normal shape (apart from the bend), but that could be just my eyes.

I've been thinking about a cutlery bend I've seen advertised for sale, though I can't find it with a quick google - a vastly expensive (something like $700) gimmicked spoon (or fork?) that claims to be a self-working PK trick. Since I have no special knowledge as to how it's done, I think it's within the confines of the ethics board to speculate (though if it's not, I hope mods will edit this post) - I wonder if that's using one of those odd metals that someone found references to in the Boeing research literature? Any very rich posters familiar with this one?

(Edited to add the 'or fork?' bit)

 

[Mercutio]

Um...gee, it looks like the thread turned into a discussion of avatars for a moment there...my last post showed one small thing--that a Ph.D. physics professor/astronaut and an audience full of people could be convinced that a hand-bent spoon (a very obviously hand-bent spoon) had been bent by state of mind...no gimmicked spoon is necessary, when people are so willing to believe...

(of course, this does not preclude a gimmicked spoon, but if we don't need one, we don't need one)

 

[flyboy217]

Right, I didn't read the accounts properly after wondering that, apologies.

That to me then - assuming the accounts are valid (and Radin has been pretty good regarding other 'psychic' phenomena in the past, IIRC, though that doesn't necessarily prove his reliability in this case) - reduces the explanation of the bowl-bending phenomenon to about two of the already suggested possibilities:

1a) Gimmicked spoon: spoons made of weird metal Houck worked with at Boeing

1b) Gimmicked spoon: as Ed suggested, a very thin bowl

2) An actual 'psychic' phenomenon

Yes, I believe these are the options we're left with (although, no doubt, another clown is likely to enter the thread with "You idiots, it was sleight of hand.").

In the case of Radin, he has posted close-ups of the spoon (http://www.psiresearch.org/spoonname.jpg). Of course, Houck could have manufactured a spoon with the print "Silver overlaid" and "Oneida" on the back. But if we consider the number of different spoon and fork types he presumably would have to manufacture so as not to look suspicious at a party, it seems at least less likely.

In addition, unless the Arizona professor (and apparently very many others) are in collusion with Houck, where did he get the special metal? (One could also ask why the professor, who was purportedly agnostic about the subject, would bother to fool his students, but that's all too easy to answer in any number of creative ways).

For a more down-to-earth (if less implicitly credible) source, check out http://www.fork-you.com/forkhow6.htm. She brought her own spoon to the party, and was only later able to bend it. Like Crichton, she sees nothing strange about it after the "initial euphoria" wore off and she ran out of spoons . I am not trying to use her as a credible source, but her entire account is very interesting nonetheless.

These arguments (especially #2) make option 1a seem less likely.

For 1b, again consider Radin's quote:

All of my attempts to repeat this effect later, both with and without the use of force, failed.

Or more pertinently, Crichton:

I felt annoyed. The hell with it, I thought, I'll bend it with sheer force. I tried: the neck of the spoon would bend, of course, but the bowl itself wouldn't bend. I was hurting my fingers trying.

This latter quote dissuades me from readily accepting 1b.

If anyone lives in or near Ohio, check out his party on July 16 and see what you can find out. If anyone's in SoCal, there's another one coming up in October. Oh yeah and if anyone is near Kansas City, MO/KS, maybe you can help me try to organize one to confirm or deny these admittedly strange claims.

 

[billydkid]

yes...

The described effects could be easily obtained with a shape memory alloy. And some indium alloys become plastic at just above body temperature but are very hard when cold.

The other thing that strikes me was the comment about not being able to bend a 3/8th inch aluminium bar - sounds a bit wussy to me!

I also noticed in the original description that Houck says something to the effect that "small ladies" can esily bend 1/2 inch steel rods, but then further on he says:

"Sometimes people bring ridiculous things to the party like crow bars, heavy chains, etc. They are really into challenging and fundamentally are not interested in experiencing the phenomena themselves."

So these crowbars are presumably NOT 1/2 inch steel? My crowbar at home is less than 1/2 inch and it's steel. Perhaps the real key there is the word "bring".

Further on there is a comment about Eldon Byrd in Japan where he says the Japanese bent metal AND CHOPSTICKS. Aren't chopsticks usually made of WOOD? And then near the end there are comments about bending plastic. Which is all very well except for the "explanation" in the middle about transdimensional forces affecting the grain structure of METAL. So does the wood and plastic turn into metal, get bent and then transmute back to wood or plastic? Hmmm....

Yes, and if you can psychically bend a spoon or an aluminum rod why can't you psychically bend railroad rail? In a much as we are talking about paranormal matters which have nothing to do with strength why is there some sort of limit to the magnitude of the object one can bend? The same applies to any supposed pyschic ability. Why would there be any sort of limit in as much as we are talking about trancending corporeal reality. If a pyschic healer can heal a perforated ulcer or deafness, why couldn't send a person through a blender and then reconstitute them paranormally? psychic phenomena are bull crap. It is all bull crap and people who believe in it simply have an affinity for bull crap.

 

[flyboy217]

Re: yes...

Yes, and if you can psychically bend a spoon or an aluminum rod why can't you psychically bend railroad rail? In a much as we are talking about paranormal matters which have nothing to do with strength why is there some sort of limit to the magnitude of the object one can bend? The same applies to any supposed pyschic ability. Why would there be any sort of limit in as much as we are talking about trancending corporeal reality. If a pyschic healer can heal a perforated ulcer or deafness, why couldn't send a person through a blender and then reconstitute them paranormally? psychic phenomena are bull crap. It is all bull crap and people who believe in it simply have an affinity for bull crap.

Yes, and if you can bench press 150 lbs, why can't you bench press 1500 lbs?

Has anyone in this thread even hinted at "trancending [sic] corporeal reality" (whatever that random assortment of words might mean)? Has anyone here suggested that these purported abilities are not limited? Or are these just vague assertions you've made up (rather uncreatively, I might add) and attached to no particular argument? With no due respect, this is the most pseudoscientific pap I've heard yet in this thread.

As much as I'm trying hard not to flame you for your ignorant hubris, I daresay you should take this bilge elsewhere. If you are unable to follow a well-reasoned argument (from either side), your post has no place in either a skeptical or paranormal forum, let alone in this thread.

And before you try to counter with some vague attack ("those psychic-believing kooks sure get mad for nothing!"), keep in mind that my problem lies solely with your inability to reason critically, and not with your presumable disbelief of psi (which I myself, and most in this forum, have no real reason to believe).

If you have anything intelligent to add to the conversation in session, please, by all means contribute.

...

Now then, where were we?

 

[Pragmatist]

Re: Re: yes...

Yes, and if you can bench press 150 lbs, why can't you bench press 1500 lbs?

Has anyone in this thread even hinted at "trancending [sic] corporeal reality" (whatever that random assortment of words might mean)?

Forgive me for saying so, but I for one was under the impression that YOU did just that:

teaches people to bend metallic objects that they are normally physically incapable of bending:

and...

This clearly fails to address the point that buckling the head of a spoon is beyond the physical abilities of most people (Crichton and Radin included).

Not to mention Houck's claims about small ladies and 1/2 inch steel bars.

The definition may be vague but the context of the question was reasonably obvious.

And before you try to counter with some vague attack ("those psychic-believing kooks sure get mad for nothing!"), keep in mind that my problem lies solely with your inability to reason critically, and not with your presumable disbelief of psi (which I myself, and most in this forum, have no real reason to believe).

If you have anything intelligent to add to the conversation in session, please, by all means contribute.

...

Now then, where were we?

Why do you think anyone's attacking you? Got something to defend?