Pitbulls. Do they have a bad rep?

[GlennB]

My full intention is to correct not only the arguments mentioned here, but the arguments that other (even so called "professionals") may have made. It all boils down to one basic question though, especially here. Despite the hypocricy (or in spite the hypocricy of some members here... cough... glennb.... cough) that there is nothing special about a pitbull jaw, but then turning around and suggesting that there is, is the root of a major part of the problem.

Hypocrisy? Where have I suggested that there's anything special about a PB jaw? The PB websites don't even say that, just that a break stick designed for a PB jaw is a good tool to detach a PB from its target.

Clearing suggesting the nature of the breeds which compromise a pitbull has had no effect, nor has talking about biological urges, so clearly the myths about the jaws of pitbulls, etc. are at the root of it. Until you can prove the source of such myths true, you have hereby disproved all myths.

I wish I could understand what the hell you're saying here. Myths - in this sense - are untrue by definition.

 

[roger]

Hypocrisy? Where have I suggested that there's anything special about a PB jaw? The PB websites don't even say that, just that a break stick designed for a PB jaw is a good tool to detach a PB from its target.

And how is a break stick designed specifically for a pit bull's mouth?

Here's a hint. It's a stick. A dowel or whatever. With emphasis on "whatever".

 

[roger]

My recommendation for this thread. Go and replace every instance of "pitbull" with "dark skinned person". Cause I can easily provide government statistics where I sum up the antisocial behavior of "dark skinned people" and show it to be staggeringly large. Which, you must admit, is a pretty easy thing to do when you lump in multiple, disparate people in a large group based on nothing but looks.


Would you feel proud arguing against 'dark skinned people' with the quality of that evidence? Would you offer anecdotes about how once you were held up in an alley by a dark skinned person, and thus feel wary about them ever since? Etc.

Cause that's the level of 'evidence' we are dealing with here. One CDC report where they explicitly say no conclusions can be drawn from the data because they are statistically insignificant, because (among other reasons) there is no census data on predominance on different breeds, and because multiple, different breeds (up to 20) are lumped into one group. The science was bad, but they were forced to do it this way.

That and the 'summer of the shark' phenomena. You have a baby that gets killed by one breed, and a pit bull that attacks somebody. The pit bull story? Makes national news (CNN). The baby story? It only got reported in the local newspapers. That's a true story, an example of one week of news reporting, though I don't have a link handy (and thus I will excuse you for not taking my word for it).

Recently I was watching the local news and they go to commercial with a blurb about a "dog attack". I turn to wunky and said "what do you bet they turn it into something about pit bulls". Well, sure enough. Now, mind you, the attacking dog was a boxer. Not pit. After awhile, it was joined in by another dog. This was a lab-pit mix, or something like that. About 5 sentences after that the reporter is going along "Now, town X does not have a pit bull ordinance. However, people are starting to ask some serious questions...." and everything else was about the Denver ban, whether this town should enact one, etc. Sure, you could raise the topic responsibly - like pointing out that breed was not a predictor in this case, and that we need to respond with something other than BSL. But, that wasn't her point. Somehow an attack by a boxer turned into a suggestion of a pit bull ban.

It just breaks my brain. And my heart.

 

[Emet]

I have a scarred right wrist due to a different breed.

It doesn't make any sense to me to now be wary about that breed. That dog, yes, if it was still alive.

But it is understandable that others may feel differently.

Meanwhile, like the vet above, <snip>

Why is it always "the vet"? We do have names, you know...

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Agreed. Even before the Interwebs, stories were passed from group to group to group--one person's opinion or information becomes the dogma of the groups before long. Just because everyone is stating it or writing it doesn't make it true or relevant. I'm not directly involved in PB rescue, but if a client asked me about the bloody stick, I would counsel them about dog training, dog behavior and the use of a Gentle Leader, an amazing training and controlling aid (IMO and most veterinary behavior experts) if people are too lazy to work with their dogs properly. But even that is not an instant fix--one has to know how to use it, and practice with it. In other words, fire prevention first--fire extinguisher last. (does that analogy hold water at all? )

It just breaks my brain. And my heart.

Me too...

 

[GreNME]

Agreed. Even before the Interwebs, stories were passed from group to group to group--one person's opinion or information becomes the dogma of the groups before long.

Haha, funny pun.

Yeah, I think your analogy (that followed the pun) holds water, and like you I would advise alternatives to using the stick myself.

 

[Toke]

It looks like an earlier post of mine got lost in bandwidth trouble.
Basically I did not understand the point of the video showing a dog, owner, and red sock.
What is the purpose of training a dog to hold on?

Regarding "The stick", what is the track record for getting dogs to let go of humans by inserting thumbs in the eyes? (sure, it's cruel, but if it is holding on to me I will not be in a nice mood)

 

[GreNME]

It looks like an earlier post of mine got lost in bandwidth trouble.
Basically I did not understand the point of the video showing a dog, owner, and red sock.
What is the purpose of training a dog to hold on?

It depends on the purpose. Smaller dogs are trained to hold on because they get down into the burrows of smaller game, and the hunter can get the game out by pulling the dog who's holding on to the prey. For other dogs, they're trained to hold on but not damage the prey, bringing it back to the human to dissect (or take to a taxidermist) themselves. Still other dogs are trained to hold on in order to drag a target off its feet, or in the case of protection/police dogs to subdue a target by pulling them to the ground. Bully breeds had two main purposes: to grab a bull's ring (in the nose) and hold on no matter how much the bull thrashed, or to basically grab on to game like a boar and hold it while other dogs or a human caught up and finished it off. Almost all dogs still have the instinctual habit of grabbing and holding a target, then giving it a "kill shake" which results in a broken neck or back depending on the size of the game and the size of the dog-- wolfhounds (Irish wolfhounds, borzois, Afghan hounds) tend to display this behavior most notably, but the larger mastiff breeds do as well (along with crushing grips for the latter). I posted a National Geographic video a page or so ago where you can see different dogs doing this toward a human subject (wearing a protective suit), and see how each uses their size and build while holding on to the target.

Regarding "The stick", what is the track record for getting dogs to let go of humans by inserting thumbs in the eyes? (sure, it's cruel, but if it is holding on to me I will not be in a nice mood)

Gouging eyes is likely to make it start snapping, and if what you're looking to do is end the attack without saving the dog there are other ways to accomplish it. Dogs are just as susceptible (more, actually) as humans to a knee to the chest, or even more painful would be a blow to the nose-- dogs have an order o magnitude more nerve endings there than humans do-- so the heel of your palm into the front of the nose of a dog is going to hurt far more than the same done to a person, and could shock the animal to release and reel back. If you're attacked by a dog and are afraid for your life I suggest raising your weaker arm in front of you horizontally (to keep it from aiming at your head/face/neck, and if it grabs your arm be ready to bring with all the force you can muster your knee into the front of its chest (below the neck) or directly into the sternum, whichever is easier.

Also, please note that none of this is any kind of official instruction on how to fight off a dog attack, nor is it to imply in any way that these are techniques I would use to separate dogs that are in the middle of a fight. This forum is not an adequate environment to teach defensive techniques and my post should not be taken as a lesson plan (no "specialists" or "special technique" being trained here). If you're concerned about possibly being attacked by a dog then carry mace and see a veterinary professional for the best advice.

The takeaway you should get from what I'm saying is that a pit bull is a dog, and has dog physiology, and no amount of tenaciousness is going to change that. Inflict severe damage and yes, the dog will let go.

 

[alfaniner]

I've been avoiding reading this thread, and can't go through the whole thing now.

As detailed elsewhere, the young pitbull I'd acquired through another family member killed one of my cats. I had only had the dog a month (about 9-10 months old). I was working on the training and classes were scheduled for the following week. Very friendly to other animals and people, but a one-second lapse and a lunge and it was over.

I also did not like the concerned looks when I'd be out walking it, regardless of whether or not it was in play mode.

So it would be very difficult to convince me otherwise.

 

[kerikiwi]

I've been avoiding reading this thread, and can't go through the whole thing now.

As detailed elsewhere, the young pitbull I'd acquired through another family member killed one of my cats. I had only had the dog a month (about 9-10 months old). I was working on the training and classes were scheduled for the following week. Very friendly to other animals and people, but a one-second lapse and a lunge and it was over.

I also did not like the concerned looks when I'd be out walking it, regardless of whether or not it was in play mode.

So it would be very difficult to convince me otherwise.

Convince you otherwise of what?

My little(20cm at the wither) mixed breed terrier is a renowned rat, rabbit, possum and cat killer, hence always on a lead. But he gets no concerned looks out walking. Everyone thinks he's cute.
My lab/PBT cross, who is a pussycat in disguise, gets the concerned looks.

 

[roger]

As detailed elsewhere, the young pitbull I'd acquired through another family member killed one of my cats. I had only had the dog a month (about 9-10 months old). I was working on the training and classes were scheduled for the following week. Very friendly to other animals and people, but a one-second lapse and a lunge and it was over.

Yes, and in that thread you ended up agreeing that yes, dogs do chase cats. Honestly, have you never heard of dogs chasing cats before? Dogs, not pitbulls.

I mean, come on.

 

[waywardsister]

The American Bulldog has to be taking a lot of heat up here since the BSL came into effect. I think they are most often mistaken for pits, although having had a white boxer I find anything white that looks remotely like a bulldog get mistaken for a pit.

Yup (I'm in Ontario too). I babysat a friend's AB puppy for a week, and the vast majority of people who commented said "Oh, is that a pit bull?" Nope. Hubby and I were chatting with a guy on the street bc he had an AB, and we asked him about it... he actually carries an information card, bc so many people not only stop him, but berate him for having what they think is a pit bull.

Girl I know with a white Dogo gets it all the time as well. And this dog is WAY bigger than a pit bull can even get.

The lone pit bull in my neighbourhood (Romeo) is actually the favorite dog. He was a rescue, and the current owner had to put a lot of work into rehabilitating him. He was anxious and fearful (which can lead to aggression). Now, he only gets excited about 2 things: 1) his ball and 2) getting belly rubs from everyone in the known universe. If other dogs around him are too hyper, he moves away and lies down.

And for the person who mentioned the wrist injury from a pit... good friend of mine was in a sling and hooked up to an antibiotic IV for 2 weeks (at home, with a visiting nurse) because he was attacked and bitten... by his cat. Likewise, my vet assistant sister has had to get shots several times due to cat bites. Last bite, her finger swelled up so badly with infection that she couldn't work. Myself, I've only ever had one nasty animal bite... a Lhasa Apso.

BTW, I am also someone who would absolutely get a PB breed because they are loving, awesome dogs... not bc I want a 'killer'. Lived with an AST for several years (my roommate's dog) and fell completely in love. Well trained, they are funny, intelligent and loyal companions. Just as all dogs can be when they are trained and socialized properly.

 

[ugot2bekidding]

From CNN today:

http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=862437

Neighbors and the dogs' owner tried to pull the dogs off the mail carrier, one even beating the dogs with a baseball bat, but nothing would stop them.

 

[Furcifer]

From CNN today:

http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=862437

$675 fine? That's it? And it's to the registered owner, the uncle?

I'm not buying that they didn't know the dogs were capable of this and they never had any problems before. When my dogs were in an agitated state they hid under the bed, they didn't rip apart the mailman. A dog just doesn't suddenly go from licking faces to attacking random people.
It sounds more like they had some "bad ass" Pitbulls for guard dogs that got out and mauled the first person they saw.

 

[roger]

From CNN today:

http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=862437

From another news source yesterday: http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Newly-adopted-dog-attacks-Gresham-toddler-99312809.html

Dog attacks 2 yo toddler.

Now, to ME, an attack on a 2yo toddler is more newsworthy than an attack on a mailman. Mailman having signed up for the job, and being viewed as an intruder by most dogs. But, I guess since it was a lab/retriever mix, it is just one of those things.

Confirmation bias is an ugly thing.

 

[roger]

Here's an interesting poster. It's different from the other "pick the pit bull" in that they did DNA tests on every dog. Sure, the pictures were picked to prove a point - you won't see a high conformation dog like my dog in that poster. But, the point is that dogs are misidentified all of the time, and nothing short of breeding records or DNA tests will let you say if a dog is a "pit bull type" or not. I put that in quotes because the prominent anti sights, when they are feeling intellectually honest, will put the quotes around the term because it is so well explained in CDC reports that identification is based merely on media reports and that they knowingly group many disparate breeds.
http://nationalcanineresearchcounci...eople-think-these-dogs-are-pit-bull-mixes.pdf

While you are at it, go on over to the 46 year history of dog deaths in Canada. Exactly 1 "pit bull" listed, and that was an incident where a drunken roommate antagonized the dog. Them there "sled dogs" sure look dangerous, though, don't they? Best to exterminate the lot of them.

http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/FDA-Canada-List-1964-2010.pdf


Ever wonder how many different dog breeds get grouped into a "sled dog" in Canada?

 

[ugot2bekidding]

From another news source yesterday: http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Newly-adopted-dog-attacks-Gresham-toddler-99312809.html

Dog attacks 2 yo toddler.

Now, to ME, an attack on a 2yo toddler is more newsworthy than an attack on a mailman. Mailman having signed up for the job, and being viewed as an intruder by most dogs. But, I guess since it was a lab/retriever mix, it is just one of those things.

Confirmation bias is an ugly thing.

And last week this 2yo toddler was killed by three of his family's pitbulls:

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local/east_bay&id=7569456

I have no doubt that the majority of dog attacks on humans occur as a result of irresponsible owners. My only real question (and the reason I quoted that first link) is are PBs potentially more dangerous when they do decide to snap? Is there any data that suggests other popular breeds will continue to attack even when hit with baseball bats (for instance)? And I don't mean dogs specifically trained to be aggressive as attack dogs. Saying breed X has a stronger bite than PBs doesn't really explain much, because there is a combination of factors in the PB's physique/history that's unique among the popular breeds.

For the record, I have come into contact (without my dog present) with many PBs that were not in the least aggressive towards me, and I have no fear of meeting strange ones (as long as I can feel the owner out, and they tell me it's ok to have contact with their dog). However, when I look at the bigger picture, it still leaves me wondering....

In a perfect world, everyone would know how to properly socialize/control their dog.

Here's an idea (that will never happen): require any potential buyer of a PB (actually, any bully breed) to take and pass a course in Responsible Dog Ownership(TM).

ETA: there /= their

 

[GreNME]

My only real question (and the reason I quoted that first link) is are PBs potentially more dangerous when they do decide to snap?

And I've already answered this. More than once, actually. The answer is it depends on what you're comparing them to. The APBT is a medium-sized breed of dog. That means, on average, that there are indeed many breeds where they are certainly more potentially dangerous than, and there are also many breeds that are certainly more dangerous than the APBT.

Is there any data that suggests other popular breeds will continue to attack even when hit with baseball bats (for instance)?

No pun intented, but you seriously have got to be kidding. There is no "data" suggesting that pit bulls will continue to attack even when hit with baseball bats. Repeat along with me: anecdotes do not equal data.

And I don't mean dogs specifically trained to be aggressive as attack dogs. Saying breed X has a stronger bite than PBs doesn't really explain much, because there is a combination of factors in the PB's physique/history that's unique among the popular breeds.

I've explained this one more than once as well. All dogs will bite and hold on in many cases. The difference is that most cases of non-lethal bites aren't outright attacks, and with the cases that are attacks dogs that are bigger than pit bulls are more likely to be strong enough to rip a good chunk off of you while doing what they do-- grab, hold on, then "kill shake" the target.

For the record, I have come into contact (without my dog present) with many PBs that were not in the least aggressive towards me, and I have no fear of meeting strange ones (as long as I can feel the owner out, and they tell me it's ok to have contact with there dog). However, when I look at the bigger picture, it still leaves me wondering....

When the bigger picture has been skewed with confirmation bias and repeated anecdote pretending to be data, I strongly suggest you turn instead to critical analysis.

 

[ugot2bekidding]

And I've already answered this. More than once, actually. The answer is it depends on what you're comparing them to. The APBT is a medium-sized breed of dog. That means, on average, that there are indeed many breeds where they are certainly more potentially dangerous than, and there are also many breeds that are certainly more dangerous than the APBT.

I'm comparing them to popular breeds, and not other potentially dangerous, but rare, breeds like the Tosa Inu, Fila Brasiliero, etc. You seem to imply that size is the most important factor that determines how dangerous a dog can be. I disagree, especially when more than one dog is involved (unless, of course, in reference to very small dogs which are, obviously, less dangerous than larger ones).

No pun intented, but you seriously have got to be kidding. There is no "data" suggesting that pit bulls will continue to attack even when hit with baseball bats. Repeat along with me: anecdotes do not equal data.

I did not mean if there was some experiment done where they hit different breeds with baseball bats. I'm sure you could look at all known dog attacks and determine if one breed is more likely to demonstrate a willingness to endure physical pain and keep attacking moreso than other breeds. I was merely asking if this had been done. Wouldn't this qualify as 'data'? Some experiments can't be done in the laboratory, for obvious ethical reasons (like hitting dogs with baseball bats), and the data must be compiled through survey. I only used baseball bats as an example since they were used (unsuccessfully) in the link I posted.

I've explained this one more than once as well. All dogs will bite and hold on in many cases. The difference is that most cases of non-lethal bites aren't outright attacks, and with the cases that are attacks dogs that are bigger than pit bulls are more likely to be strong enough to rip a good chunk off of you while doing what they do-- grab, hold on, then "kill shake" the target.

Noted. But again, my question was "are PBs more likely to keep attacking when you fight back"? If this is indeed true, then I would say that, yes, they are potentially more dangerous than other breeds (even larger ones).

When the bigger picture has been skewed with confirmation bias and repeated anecdote pretending to be data, I strongly suggest you turn instead to critical analysis.

I only said the bigger picture leaves me wondering (i.e. I'm asking questions), is this not a component of critical analysis?

 

[ugot2bekidding]

By the way, in the link I posted, only three of the family's five PBs were involved in the attack, but all five were killed by the authorities. Is this typical? The other two weren't even in the same room as the three attackers.

 

[kerikiwi]

require any potential buyer of a PB (actually, any bully breed) to take and pass a course in Responsible Dog Ownership

Why only 'bully' breeds?
Every dog deserves a decent owner, just as every child deserves a decent parent.