Pitbulls. Do they have a bad rep?

[GlennB]

And you have yet to produce evidence of that places it above other bully breeds, let alone other dogs in general.

I'm not putting it above other bully breeds, I'm justifying putting it (and other bully breeds) above 'other dogs in general', by quoting your own words.

You are the evidence.

If you want to deny that bully breeds are no more prone to tenacious holding of their target than (say) a Labrador retriever then go ahead. Knock yourself out.

 

[GreNME]

Just the second one, and it confirmed it.

No, you're applying significance where they downplayed it.

Nonsense, boxers continuously adjust their bite. You can't get a boxer to bite and hold anywhere near that of a Pitbull. You honestly think it's coincidence it's Pitbulls you see in videos holding themselves suspended for minutes?

You mean videos like this:


Or this:


Go to a bully breed competition or schutzhund session and see for yourself. You're making assertions from ignorance and applying too much significance to cherry-picked statements. Pit bulls hold on, but no more than other breeds that have been used for bull-baiting and none of the bully breeds have some sort of amazing luck that their first bite is the one that they hold on. You're fiddling with probable circumstances to keep a scenario confirming what you're saying about pit bulls while avoiding the very same circumstances that cause other dogs to adjust applying to pit bulls.

For the quotes you showed:

"The majority of breeds will snap erratically at their opponent, biting and releasing repeatedly. As terriers, pit bulls will usually bite and hold. Contrary to popular myth, this is not some kind of special pit bull behavior; it is merely terrier behavior"

The first sentence is misleading generalization, but the second and third sentences basically repeat what I said: this is not something special to pit bulls.

"They will work to get some sort of grip in a desired place then hold and shake"

So do all dogs that have a high prey drive. This is actually a behavior that's desired in schutzhund for getting a dog to grab and not let go until given the proper command.

"Pit Bulls simply have a tenacity to hold on, and the break stick gives the owner leverage to get a stubborn dog's jaws open."

Which I already said was a convenience that can be achieved without any such tool whatsoever. Fear and timidity on the handler are the only things that lead to items like break sticks.

"The breed was bred to hold on, at all costs."

Hyperbole. They were meant to hold on until commanded to let go.

"Keep in mind that most dogs fight differently than pit bulls. The pit bull will get a solid grip and then hold and shake"

Completely false statement.

Not a pit bull:


Also not a pit bull:


Or do you think rope and tug toys for dogs are only for pit bulls and other bully breeds?

"Despite the lack of a physiological "jaw locking" mechanism, pit bull-type dogs often exhibit "bite, hold, and shake" behavior and refuse to release when biting"

"Despite not having lock jaws, which is a complete myth, pit bulls are capable of powerful bites due to their extremely strong jaws and willingness to hold on"

Neither of which is talking about anything other than the strong jaws of pits (and I've already established that they aren't anywhere near the strongest).

These are all from Pitbull owner websites (and Wiki).

The owners don't refute the hold nature and admit it is specific to types of terriers.

You made two distinct statements in that last sentence. That they don't refute the hold behavior is the first, and I haven't said otherwise-- I have maintained that this is not behavior distinct to pit bulls and it is not even exclusive behavior to bully breeds. The second statement is simply false-- it's not specific to terriers, it's one of the notable characteristics of terriers. Other breeds that exhibit this behavior have other notable characteristics and the tenacity is simply part of their prey-- hunting for killing, not hunting for treats like a gun dog-- drive.

You keep arguing back at me as if I'm arguing something I'm not, I'm stating that the significance you are attributing to pit bulls is overblown hype, and you keep going back to "but they hold on" as if that's a meaningful defense to what I'm saying.

 

[GreNME]

I'm not putting it above other bully breeds, I'm justifying putting it (and other bully breeds) above 'other dogs in general', by quoting your own words.

You are the evidence.

If you want to deny that bully breeds are no more prone to tenacious holding of their target than (say) a Labrador retriever then go ahead. Knock yourself out.

No, I'm saying a German shepherd, a rottweiler, a Doberman, a Mastiff, and even an Irish wolfhound-- the latter of which actually hunted by chasing, grabbing, lifting its prey with a "kill shake" before throwing it down-- all have at least equally tenacious holds, and the fact that three of the five I've listed right there are popular for schutzhund performance, which requires being able to bite and hold on, is my evidence for pit bull bites being not significantly different.

Visual aids:

 

[GreNME]

3bodyproblem, because I think you will be more open to actually looking at professional examples of the attack styles that differ between the dogs, check this NatGeo video out.



The APBT attacks in almost the exact same manner as the American bulldog does in this video. However, you should be able to notice that all of the dogs actually bite and hold on. It's what they do as they bite and hold on that differs slightly, and that has more to do with their size and weight than it does their respective breed. ETA: the first half of the video is what I'm referring to, since the second half deals with bite strength.

Does that clarify what I'm saying a little better than the heated back-and-forth?

 

[Furcifer]

You mean videos like this:

No like this:

or this:

There's a difference and I'm not sure why you are denying it? They don't adjust their bite like most dogs do, and that's why they're recommending these break sticks. I could pick up my boxer for a few seconds, but no matter how well he had the rope he'd adjust his bite. It was dangerous, I can't tell you how many times I almost knocked myself out when he let go.

Speaking of, why do think they call them Boxers? I suppose all dogs will punch you in gonads, but it would be utterly foolish of me to insist Boxers don't have a tendency to do it. You're presenting the same nonsense here about Pitbulls and how they hold.

 

[GreNME]

No like this:

or this:

There's a difference and I'm not sure why you are denying it? They don't adjust their bite like most dogs do, and that's why they're recommending these break sticks. I could pick up my boxer for a few seconds, but no matter how well he had the rope he'd adjust his bite. It was dangerous, I can't tell you how many times I almost knocked myself out when he let go.

Speaking of, why do think they call them Boxers? I suppose all dogs will punch you in gonads, but it would be utterly foolish of me to insist Boxers don't have a tendency to do it. You're presenting the same nonsense here about Pitbulls and how they hold.

I'm not presenting any nonsense. I already gave a video that contrasted four different types of dog that all bite and hold when attacking. You're just ignoring it in order to present more confirmation bias.

Again:



The APBT attacks in almost the exact same manner as the American bulldog does in this video. However, you should be able to notice that all of the dogs actually bite and hold on. It's what they do as they bite and hold on that differs slightly, and that has more to do with their size and weight than it does their respective breed. The first half of the video is what I'm referring to, since the second half deals with bite strength.

ETA: and you asked where the boxers got their name?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_(dog)#Breed_name

2nd ETA: interesting, the Wiki page doesn't tell you that the AKC waited on accepting the boxer standard because they were also being used for fighting when APBTs were.

 

[Furcifer]

3bodyproblem, because I think you will be more open to actually looking at professional examples of the attack styles that differ between the dogs, check this NatGeo video out.



The APBT attacks in almost the exact same manner as the American bulldog does in this video. However, you should be able to notice that all of the dogs actually bite and hold on. It's what they do as they bite and hold on that differs slightly, and that has more to do with their size and weight than it does their respective breed. ETA: the first half of the video is what I'm referring to, since the second half deals with bite strength.

Does that clarify what I'm saying a little better than the heated back-and-forth?

I think so, I'll have to check out this video, I'm on my way out the door.

I don't think they have a "unique" bite all their own, nor a jaw geometry like Glen mentioned. But they certainly a propensity above and beyond what other bully breeds may have. It's not just because people teach them, although they certainly do, it's because they were bred to. There are certainly other dogs that can match them, although I doubt there are dogs that can surpass them. This is and of itself isn't enough to warrant banning them, by the same logic there are many other breeds that would need to be banned as well.

 

[GreNME]

I think so, I'll have to check out this video, I'm on my way out the door.

I appreciate your willingness to check it out.

I don't think they have a "unique" bite all their own, nor a jaw geometry like Glen mentioned. But they certainly a propensity above and beyond what other bully breeds may have. It's not just because people teach them, although they certainly do, it's because they were bred to. There are certainly other dogs that can match them, although I doubt there are dogs that can surpass them. This is and of itself isn't enough to warrant banning them, by the same logic there are many other breeds that would need to be banned as well.

Oh, there are dogs that can surpass them. It really is the size that makes a difference, and while pit bulls (like other bully breeds) can put some chutzpah into their bite, they weren't bred to bite and kill like some larger breeds were (like mastiff breeds). Also, even though they're a herding breed GSDs are among the most popular to use for protection and bite work precisely because a driven GSD can not only inherently display tenacity surpassing any bully breed, but unlike the bullys the GSD have the size and strength advantage to literally take a target down in seconds. Rotties and Dobies are also popular in protection work for this. However, pits and some larger bully breeds have also been trained in schutzhund and I've seen them perform, and I'll admit that their smaller size doesn't mean that they compete less well-- but keep in mind that schutzhund also requires the dog to be smart as well as strong and tenacious.

 

[Furcifer]

ETA: and you asked where the boxers got their name?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_(dog)#Breed_name

2nd ETA: interesting, the Wiki page doesn't tell you that the AKC waited on accepting the boxer standard because they were also being used for fighting when APBTs were.

No I said "Where do you think they got their name from"

That's a trait bred in them (and not even on purpose), just like what we are talking about with regards to Pitbulls.

OK I gotta go, I want to watch that video before I say much more.

 

[GreNME]

No I said "Where do you think they got their name from"

Yeah, I figured you were joking when you mentioned punching in the gonads.

The name "boxer" is an Anglicized version of "Baxer" as far as geneology of the name can be determined. When I first heard of them I pictured a dog in boxing trunks and wearing gloves, though.

(ETA: in other words, the dog was laughing with, not at)

 

[Furcifer]

Wow, that Dutch Shepard is impressive. It flings itself full force, that would be scary.

I can't say that's representative though, I mean the suits are designed to allow the dog to bite and hold. The video cuts short as well, it's more of a trained subdue than an attack.

edit: they do demonstrate how they bite an hold the bite, none of the dogs were gnawing as far as I could see.

 

[bethgsd]

Wow, that Dutch Shepard is impressive. It flings itself full force, that would be scary.

I can't say that's representative though, I mean the suits are designed to allow the dog to bite and hold. The video cuts short as well, it's more of a trained subdue than an attack.

edit: they do demonstrate how they bite an hold the bite, none of the dogs were gnawing as far as I could see.

Unless things in the schutzhund world have changed dramatically since I trained for it, 10 years ago, the desired bite was a calm, full grip which wouldn't be gnawing. The trainers I worked with wanted the dogs to hit the sleeve with the full mouth and hold on. And the dogs that didn't have it naturally, they worked to get the dogs to that point. I was lucky, the two I trained, had it naturally.

 

[Furcifer]

Unless things in the schutzhund world have changed dramatically since I trained for it, 10 years ago, the desired bite was a calm, full grip which wouldn't be gnawing. The trainers I worked with wanted the dogs to hit the sleeve with the full mouth and hold on. And the dogs that didn't have it naturally, they worked to get the dogs to that point. I was lucky, the two I trained, had it naturally.

I believe that is correct. The trainer that helped me train my dog sign language (he was deaf) was a schutzhund trainer. Some very nice GSD, very impressive. I didn't trust those dogs in the slightest.

 

[GreNME]

Wow, that Dutch Shepard is impressive. It flings itself full force, that would be scary.

I can't say that's representative though, I mean the suits are designed to allow the dog to bite and hold. The video cuts short as well, it's more of a trained subdue than an attack.

edit: they do demonstrate how they bite an hold the bite, none of the dogs were gnawing as far as I could see.

What the dogs shown do, as an attack, is essentially grab-and-tackle. The likely reason you saw a bulldog in that NatGeo piece and not something like a pit bull (aside from the obvious stigma) would be that the bulldog is more representative of the type of grab-hold-pull technique that the pit has become notorious for-- the pit bull actually mixes this quality from bulldogs with the "go Go GO" tenacity of terriers, who were actually more often vermin-chasers and fox/weasel/small game hunters. Back to the dogs shown, though: many breeds use that type of attack because it's an instinctual throwback to their wilder relatives, and the reason we humans take these dogs and direct them to do this on command is literally because so many of them are exceedingly good at it. The reason you see these sorts of demonstrations with trained dogs isn't because the dogs have been trained to do things this way, it's because they've been trained to stop on command. As I mentioned a few pages ago, this type of work is useful in that it teaches a dog "rules of engagement" and places a specific, definite "stop" command to the act of attacking, making it safe (for us) to be able to demonstrate. You can put a less extreme form of that "stop" command on a dog by using a rope or tug toy and slowly rewarding breaks in grabbing, biting, and pulling at first, then putting that behavior to a word for a command and rewarding that. It takes time, but in all practicality it's not much different from teaching them sit or roll over or some similar trick, you just have to work on timing and rewarding the desired behavior when they exhibit the behavior, not after or before. But the specifics of that is a different conversation-- my point is that the trained dogs aren't trained to bite a certain way, they're trained in stopping on command (and not ripping the the target's face off before stopping).

Biting and holding, particularly to give at least one good "kill shake" is very common among dogs. In fact, breeds like Labradors and other gun dogs are actually outliers to the rule because they've been selectively bred to not display this behavior that is otherwise natural in dogs. This is how dogs hunted before they evolved to rely on us (through thousands of years of selective breeding for this, initiated primarily by us), and even with dogs that go "feral" (pariah dogs and such) this is their modus operandi for catching and killing prey. In other words, if a dog is actually attacking then what you see the dogs doing in the video is how they do it: grab, pull, shake, kill. They don't gnaw until the thing is dead.

 

[GreNME]

I believe that is correct. The trainer that helped me train my dog sign language (he was deaf) was a schutzhund trainer. Some very nice GSD, very impressive. I didn't trust those dogs in the slightest.

Can I ask why?

Oh, and I wouldn't trust a schutzhund instructor who's teaching their dogs to bite differently. I don't think that's good for the dog in learning control and inhibition properly. If they don't have it they don't have it. There's no shame in that, and that doesn't make the dog useless.

 

[Furcifer]

Can I ask why?

Oh, and I wouldn't trust a schutzhund instructor who's teaching their dogs to bite differently. I don't think that's good for the dog in learning control and inhibition properly. If they don't have it they don't have it. There's no shame in that, and that doesn't make the dog useless.

Why what? I didn't trust his dogs? Mainly because he told me to stay clear of them. The one was OK, but the other wasn't and they both looked alike to me. There was an older one.

I don't know what you mean about teaching them to bite differently? All the dogs I've seen have basically been the same, engage wide open mouth, a firm bite with no head shaking or snapping to get a better grip and hold.

 

[GreNME]

Why what? I didn't trust his dogs? Mainly because he told me to stay clear of them. The one was OK, but the other wasn't and they both looked alike to me. There was an older one.

Okay, that makes sense.

I don't know what you mean about teaching them to bite differently? All the dogs I've seen have basically been the same, engage wide open mouth, a firm bite with no head shaking or snapping to get a better grip and hold.

Sorry, that wasn't meant at you (my mistake). That was for bethgsd remarking on the other trainer. But yes: dogs pretty much bite the same with that initial grab. Dogs will try for a better grip if their first one doesn't get all the way on, but the shake (or pull-down) is meant for prey or if the target struggles.

 

[bethgsd]

Okay, that makes sense.



Sorry, that wasn't meant at you (my mistake). That was for bethgsd remarking on the other trainer. But yes: dogs pretty much bite the same with that initial grab. Dogs will try for a better grip if their first one doesn't get all the way on, but the shake (or pull-down) is meant for prey or if the target struggles.

The trainer was trying to get the dogs to learn to get a nice, calm full mouthed grip with the first bite, rather than just using the front part of the mouth. <-not sure if I'm making sense; I can picture it, just not sure I can verbalize it.

 

[ToddH]

Stories like this certainly aren't helping their reputation.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2010/07/23/dnt.ca.pit.bull.attack.kron?hpt=T2

In my sister's subdivision recently, a neighbor's two pit bulls got loose and went on a killing spree. Every cat and dog in the vicinity was brutally killed. Fortunately, no people were injured. The police had to be called in and the dogs were destroyed.

I was attacked by my brother's pit a few years ago. The dog was well treated and never showed any sign of aggression. Then one day he snapped and attacked me. He ripped my left hand up pretty badly as I was defending myself. I almost lost my thumb to infection. My brother had him put down.

So are these just isolated incidents? Who knows. All I know is I don't trust the breed based on my dealings with them.

 

[Bmorepitbull]

Hi, sorry I missed this.

I unreservedly accept that some other dogs have bite force equal to or exceeding that of the BT breeds. BTs do, however, have very strong jaws.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say BT, but I'm assuming that you are referring to bull terriers, so with that assumption in mind, knowing that there are -several- other breeds that have stronger bites, it seems that you are being hypocritical in this statement solely for the purpose of perpetuating the bad rep of pitbulls and other bully breeds.

I have not supported the myth that they have 'locking jaws', so no need to mention that.

I'd beg to differ, because literally in your next post you make the comment:

Somewhere up the thread it was pointed out that these devices are PB-specific, geared to the jaw geometry of PBs, and should not be used on other breeds.

I can conclude nothing other than the fact that you are trying to infer that a pitbull's bite is somehow different than any other dog breed.

I have also scoured PB websites - many of which sell absolutely nothing and can't be mis-represented as "stores" - and found many saying things like this:

'If you've travelled in Pit Bull circles for any length of time, you've probably heard mention of something termed a "breaking stick"
or "break stick". This is a safety item every Pit Bull owner should possess.'

I myself, as I have mentioned before, am not only a proud APBT owner, but I am also the member of a few bully breed advocacy groups, most of them who specialize in APBT and mixes thereof. None of them advocate breaksticks, as they are useless, but also because the idea behind them is that they perpetuate the myth that they have locking jaws. Hence why I mentioned this before, even though you did not mention locking jaws specifically, that is the idea behind a break stick.

Why? Well, we all agree that BTs are tenacious when they attack and difficult to remove from a target. In the words of the Animal Cops dog behaviourist "The trouble with these dogs is they don't let go".

Dog breeds other than retrievers are breed not to let go. It is a biological instinct that you can trace back to wolves. The idea behind not letting go and the shaking behavior is to paralyze the prey. The shape of a dog's head is such that once something is in it's mouth, rather it's a rabbit or a potential predator, is such that it creates an opportunity for prey/predators to scratch their eyes out. Shaking and paralyzing the animal prevents this from happening. It's a biological instinct in all breeds of dogs, minus retrievers who have been bred not to damage an already animal. On top of this, dogs are pack animals. They naturally, as wolves, hunt and behave in packs. Wolves will attach onto a particular part of their prey and they won't let go. They hold on until they are able to overwhelm their prey/threat. This is really important to remember no matter breed of dog you own. They are all derived from wolves and as such will still biologically show certain habits, unless they have been bred/trained to show otherwise.

Perhaps she was wrong, perhaps those specialist sites are wrong. Or perhaps the folks at the dog park keep the device in a pocket? Maybe you should ask them and point them at the advice given by PB specialists if they don't carry one.

I would never point any dog owner towards a site with bad information. If an APBT (which you stated is the only breed which a breakstick should be used with), then why should you not use a breakstick with breeds that have a stronger bite strength, dogs that also have the same biological instincts, or other terrier breeds? You failed to answer this question before, and I will continue to keep asking this question until you do answer it. It is actually key to your argument. You've given no reason why one breed of dog, one you've admitted doesn't have the strongest bite, and in one sentence said doesn't have a special jaw and in the next say it does, and so on.

It doesn't seem that way. If you put +"break stick" +pit into google you'll get many hits from PB-fancier websites and discussion forums. You'll find that many/most of them recommend possession of this device, and I serously doubt many of those people are actively training their dogs to bite+hold

First of all, I'd question your classification of "APBT (or even bully breeds in general) fancier". As I said before, and I will continue to repeat, not only because I am a APBT owner, but also a member of several APBT and bully breed promotional groups, breaksticks are not something that is recommended. Secondly, any responsible dog owner is continually training their dog. It doesn't matter if a dog knows how to sit when you command them to, if you teach it to them and don't continue the practice of making them do it when you say it, you haven't really taught the dog anything. -ALL- dog owners should be continually training their dog, regardless of the breed.

If you want to deny that bully breeds are no more prone to tenacious holding of their target than (say) a Labrador retriever then go ahead. Knock yourself out.

A labrador retriever is less likely to maintain a hold on any target, including a toy. They are less likely to take to tug than other breeds, as they are a retriever. Retrievers have specifically been bred to retrieve a hunter's prey and bring it back in tact. That is the specific purpose of a retriever. Breeds that don't have the term retriever after their name have not been selected for this purpose. Especially when you look at terriers who are bred specifically for the purpose of hunting small prey. Guess what, an actual pit bull is a terrier. Terriers also include breeds like West Highland Terriers, Yorkshire Terriers, etc. While the examples I gave have much lighter bite strengths than an APBT, there are also other terriers who have equal or stronger bite strengths than an APBT (not to mention if you venture outside of the terrier breed). Terriers are more specifically bred, only slightly more, to shake prey and be more "tenacious" (as you put it) than other breeds, because of the job they are bred for.


You claim that APBTs or other bully breeds are more tenacious and won't let go when they bite. My brother in law owned a golden retriever (proving that even though a specific breed is bred for something doesn't mean it isn't prone to biological instincts), one day his golden retriever a spayed golden retriever (not that the fact that she was spayed has any bearing on this argument, I just thought I'd mention it because spaying/neutering has turned out to be a topic on this thread) snapped on his at the time 3 year old son. He was not doing anything other than sitting there watching television. She not only bite him, but mauled him, and when someone came into interfere she clang on to his face refusing to let go. Would you recommend in this instance that my brother in law should have had a break stick? Would you consider a retriever's tenacity when biting to be any less than an APBT or other bully breed in this instance? Because she punctured his tongue, the roof of his mouth, almost took his eye, and caused him to get 26 stitches in his face. So yeah, I can see how you could totally say that an APBT or other bully breed or even terrier has a more 'tenacious' bite than other breeds.

The fact of the matter is that Grenme has done a great job at arguing the myths against pitbulls, and as it usually means "pitbull type dogs". Most people can't tell a pitbull from their *******. Most people also believe whatever it is they hear or read until they meet an actual pitbull. You claim that you are quoting pitbull advocacy groups,etc., but have you ever actually met a real life APBT? I can answer that for you, NO. You haven't. I'm not blaming you for your ignorance, but I'm rather inviting you learn from it rather than perpetuate it.

Breaksticks are not something that is necessary nor recommended for any breed. How does it make sense that you would say that pitbulls don't have a special jaw and then turn around and say that bite sticks are specifically designed for the special geometry of a pitbulls jaw? It doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense that a breakstick would be recommended/required for a breed that has medium to medium high bite strength while breeds with stronger bites or other terriers (who have the same habits as APBTs) wouldn't. You can sit on the other end of the internet and pretend that you are quoting information from "pitbull/bully advocacy groups", but you really don't know anything until you get involved with an actual group. Not to mention that there are tons of people out on the internet putting out bad information on any breed of dog, claiming to be on the side of the dog.

Argument long and short, APBT's are no different than any other breed of dog, especially from other terriers.

As far as 3bodyproblems comments, there are specific training methods, specifically for protection training, that will use short sticks to simulate a weapon. You also later mention a short stick with a whip like structure on the end, the best I can figure you are speaking of is for herding training. It's meant to keep the dog focused on the task at hand and to prevent them harming the cattle (whatever it may be). You also mentioned the idea of stuffed socks being an abusive training tool for retrievers. While most breeds of dogs today are not owned for the purpose in which they were bred, it does not erase the fact that the dog still has the need to fulfill certain purposes. Even if someone doesn't use a retriever for actually retrieving foul/prey, it is not a bad idea to fulfill the need to retrieve something. The important thing is to keep it structured and to make sure that you let the dog know when it is appropriate and not appropriate to act on certain behaviors.

As far as the spay/neuter debate, and while I do not care to get wrapped up in that debate as much as I care about debunking pitbull and bully myths, I have been told by every vet that I know that unless you plan on breeding a dog, you should have the dog neutered before maturity. Leaving a dog intact can lead a dog to have certain instincts and behaviors ingrained into their minds. If you wait too long, you will have a difficult time trying to break a dog of certain habits. This can include aggressive instincts to mating instincts. On the flip side of the coin, I will say that I never had any issues with my dog humping -anything- (toys, furniture, legs, other dogs, etc) until I had him neutered. However this is easily explained. When a dog is spayed/neutered, a surge of hormones can run through their body, not only triggering biological behaviors, but -heavily- encouraging biological behaviors associated with a rush of hormones. The reasoning behind this is because the body is receiving more of the particular hormone than normal without the procedure. So the long and short of my position on spaying/neutering is that I highly recommend you have the procedure done if you do not have plans on breeding your dog because it can lead to life long side effects, while having it done can lead to difficult, but temporary side effects. Also having worked at a shelter, I can tell you that there are too many unwanted dogs in the world to bring a liter of unwanted dogs into it.