Pirates vs. America

If the greatest art was made in a period free from copyright, it was also made in a period where exact duplication was technologically infeasible. Nobody made a million cheap but good copies of Michelangelo's Pieta because nobody knew how. If they had, they would have. And would it have made the work less good?

I'd also remind fans of classical art that many surviving great sculptures are actually classical copies of the originals, long since lost.
 
So it's certainly a good thing no one has argued for absolutre control over intellectual property.

So could you please explain to me why it is moral to rent a movie but immoral to rent a CD? The reason is that when the ban on renting music came about there was a market for rented movies and people would have been pissed enough to make changes if they banned video rentals.
 
If the greatest art was made in a period free from copyright, it was also made in a period where exact duplication was technologically infeasible. Nobody made a million cheap but good copies of Michelangelo's Pieta because nobody knew how. If they had, they would have. And would it have made the work less good?
Of course it would. It would have made them Common, and that is the death knell for any true artistic respect. It must be only available to the elite.
 
You're right, people can and do use 'free' sources as ways to evaluate software, music, movies, etc. before purchasing them. It may also serve as free publicity for other products/services, such as how hearing an artist on line for free might entice people to go to their concerts. (Although there may be a problem with your radio anology... doesn't the artist still get royalties for radio play?)

I have no idea if the artist is paid royalties for radio play, but I do know it's the best advertising for his albums and concerts there is.

The think is though... it should be up to the copyright holder if they want to engage in the 'giving it away for free in hopes of making a sale' business plan, or the more traditional 'gouge them right at the start'. Some artists COULD make more money by giving away their work for free, but if they choose not to, that is their fault.

The genie is out of the bottle. The truth is that music, movies, games, programs and other creations are all easily copied bits of computer data and there isn't going to be any way to protect them.

A hundred years ago music artists made money through the sale of sheet music. Before recordings became popular, they would buy the music so they could play it at home on their pianos. Modern photocopiers have certainly destroyed that market, yet the producers of music still have ways of making money.

When I was a teenager we used to get together and share 45's and make our own mix tapes. We did this a lot, and the companies that really proffited directly from this were Maxell, Sony, and anyone else who made blank tapes.

Owning free copies of the music never stopped us from buying the albums. When Bruce Springsteen or Billy Joel produced a great album, we all wanted it even though we could get the music for free. The only thing that's really changed since then is that computers and the internet make it easier for people to get together.

What's really driving the issue is that the producers of content want to overcharge for that content. This was driven home for me in my household when my daughter lost her MP3 player. The player itself was easily replaced, but the collection of music on it was huge. At 99 cents a song, the bill adds up quickly.

When someone buys an album, they keep that in their collection for decades. A digital file on an MP3 or a computer hard drive is much more ephemeral, but the producers of content want to charge the same amount despite the ridiculously low production costs and the more transient nature of the end product.
 
Fine.

As long as you are able to prove that there is no economic loss for every single individual artist whose music is stolen through downloading.

Otherwise all you have is one huge pile of assumptions that you are using to justify taking something without paying for it. Broadly similar to the "big business has insurance therefore they suffer no loss from theft" argument.

This argument goes both ways. You can't prove an economic loss to an artist through downloading, you can only speculate that there might have been one. People will take files they can get for free that they would not pay for, so you can't prove that any one download represents a loss because that person may simply have done without rather than pay for it.
 
So could you please explain to me why it is moral to rent a movie but immoral to rent a CD? The reason is that when the ban on renting music came about there was a market for rented movies and people would have been pissed enough to make changes if they banned video rentals.

Yet another question/argument about a position have not espoused. I can explain my position about things, but you'll have to ask the people that advocate the last ones you've been arguing about to clarfiy, as I cannot speak for them.
 
The worst thing is that the people behind TPB claims that they started it as a contribution to the discussion while they obviously are raking in fortunes on ads.
 
Yet another question/argument about a position have not espoused. I can explain my position about things, but you'll have to ask the people that advocate the last ones you've been arguing about to clarfiy, as I cannot speak for them.

There are roughly two groups here, the first is those who are supporting the current legal structure and the second opposes it.

If you support the current legal structure of intellectual property please explain such discrepancies. If it is moral to rent out copies you purchased of someone else's intellectual property, why is it illegal to do so with computer software and music?

That it is illegal with software and music leads me to believe that the only reason Netflix and libraries are allowed to legally operate is that people would object to them being shut down, they do not fit in with many of the ideas people advocate for intellectual property.
 
There are roughly two groups here, the first is those who are supporting the current legal structure and the second opposes it.

My point being responded to, however, had nothing to do with the present legal structure. I just seems a bit disingenuous for people who are grabbing songs and software for free to use the "it is really better marketing for the artist/owner," when I think that call -- right or wrong -- should actually be made by the artist/owner.

That has nothing to do with the legal system as it is or as it should be, nor does it endorse any particular part of any law from any country. For those who are actually defending the current system precisely as it is, and not the idea of intellectual property protection in general or in some form -- if those people are actually posting in this thread -- they are more than welcome to answer your questions. But I am still not one of them.
 
No that is stealing, you are taking someones physical property with out their permission.

And this is where we disagree. According to the definition I provided earlier, stealing does not have to be a physical object. If I take a book you wrote and publish it with my name, I think it is perfectly acceptible (and very common) to say I "stole" your book, even though I didn't steal a physical item. If I hack into I-tunes and download their music without their permission, I think it is perfectly acceptible to say I am stealing their product or service. If I download a movie I did not pay for against the wishes of its creator, I think it is perfectly valid to say I am stealing their movie. Or, if you want to get technical, I am depriving them of the right to control their creation, just as plagiarism is depriving you of credit for your work.

You are removing their control over their intellectual property. The boundaries of what is stealing and what is fair use are very subjective and arbitrary, as seen that you can't rent computer games legally but you can rent movies or console games. Why one stealing and the other not?

Because we've come to a social consensus, just as we've come to a social consensus that taxation is not stealing, and eminent domain is not stealing. If you're pointing out that there is a degree of subjectiveness to it, I agree. That, however, isn't unique to "stealing." Many terms we use are arbitrary outside of their strict legal definitions -- "murder," for one example (a murder to one person might be a completely justified killing to another -- or not murder at all). That doesn't make the concepts less valid.

Ultimately, we can argue this until we are blue in the face, but we are more debating semantics than anything else. Even if you were to convince me that copyright infringement is 100%, not a form of stealing, I would still consider it to be the moral/ethical equivalent of stealing. As such, I cordially suggest we let this one go since we're probably not going to convince each other in either direction :)

The point is that the laws don't care about the public and they are not getting written in the publics interest, they are being written in the interest of big business. So just like they can eminent domain your house because someone want to build a shopping mall there and it will improve the tax base. An improved tax base is in the public interest so you will be forced to sell your house to who ever wants to pay a certain amount of money for it.

Slightly different issue, but I somewhat agree. However, while you might be valid in stating that copyright laws as they currently exist are not in the public interest, they do protect more than big business. They also protect small publishers, authors, and musicians.

I'm not, by the way, claiming that copyright laws as they exist are perfect. I think the DMCA, for example, was a horrible piece of legislation that went way beyond protecting copyright, and actually added rediculous restrictions that do not exist for any other type of product. The idea that it is a crime, for example, for me to remove copy protection from a CD or DVD I purchased legally is absolutely absurd -- as absurd as if the automotive industry made it illegal for me to disassemble my own car. I am merely defending the principle that music, books, games, art, etc. are products and should be accorded the same rights as other products. If I purchase it legally, I should be able to personally use the product and do with it as I desire. If I don't purchase the product, I don't have any right to use it.
 
There are roughly two groups here, the first is those who are supporting the current legal structure and the second opposes it.

False dichotomy. We each have our own opinions, and this particular distinction is pretty arbitrary.

If you support the current legal structure of intellectual property please explain such discrepancies. If it is moral to rent out copies you purchased of someone else's intellectual property, why is it illegal to do so with computer software and music?

Our government is a bureaucracy, and sometimes bureaucracies make nonsensical distinctions. That the government has apparently set up rules on conflicting principles in this case is not itself evidence that any particular point of view is wrong or right, it's only evidence that our governmental bureaucracies sometimes behaves as a bureaucracy.
 
That is the key difference between true theft and Intellectual Property infringement. A physical object has a value that is specific to that object. Taking it deprives the owner of that object of that object's value, regardless of the circumstances or time (ignoring degradation over time). Taking IP does not deprive the owner of the IP, since he still possesses it. Furthermore, IP only possesses, for the owner, a semi-arbitrary value -- a combination of a creator-defined arbitrary value, and a market value -- for a purely arbitrary length of time, which has varied considerably by region and over recent history.
I was with you up until this part. See, a physical object ALSO has a combination of a creator-defined arbitrary value and a market value for a purely arbitrary length of time which has varied considerably by region and over recent history. A house, for example.

I don't think there is a product that doesn't have this combination.
 
No doubt there's some wiggle room in those examples.

But the point is that the legality of piracy is based on arbitrary standards rather than actual harm as in theft.
Theft is based on arbitrary standards. In fact, the very act of defining a difference between 'theft' and 'copyright infringement' is arbitrary.

Consider the generic drug example using the theft example. If I copy your drug after you make it I've used your idea and innovation without compensating you, so that's theft. If I wait X amount of time and then use your idea and innovation without compensating you, it's not theft. Theft as a descriptor doesn't work.
The time limit on copyrights is arbitrary. Why shouldn't something you created be yours forever, and your heirs' property forever as well, just like your house?
 
Our government is a bureaucracy, and sometimes bureaucracies make nonsensical distinctions. That the government has apparently set up rules on conflicting principles in this case is not itself evidence that any particular point of view is wrong or right, it's only evidence that our governmental bureaucracies sometimes behaves as a bureaucracy.

I really don't see how it has anything to do with bureaucracy (which has an unfairly bad reputation BTW). The decision not to step on the toes of the voters sounds more like a political descision than a bureaucratic one.
 
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Why shouldn't something you created be yours forever, and your heirs' property forever as well, just like your house?
Because that may not benefit society as a whole.

We have property laws against theft to provide an incentive to create wealth instead of only redistribute (steal) it. This strenghtens society.

If copyright laws benefit only a small group (of copyright owners) while society as a whole doesn't they should be repealed.

There is no such thing as inalienable rights, only laws that strengthen society and those that don't. Societies that adopt the former thrive, while those adopting the latter falter.
 
There is no such thing as inalienable rights, only laws that strengthen society and those that don't. Societies that adopt the former thrive, while those adopting the latter falter.

Societies that don't believe in inalienable rights fail because they are not worth having members of that society. Why should anyone join a club that cares more for the collective than the individual, even though the collective is merely the sum of the individuals? The good of the state is the good of the individuals within that state--the state has no other purpose in existing than to strive for the maximum benefit for each and every person in it. And if it stops trying for that, it deserves to fail.
 
The good of the state is the good of all the individuals within that state--the state has no other purpose in existing than to strive for the maximum benefit for each and every person in it.
Bolding inserted by me, with that I agree completely. And while for example the DMCA benefits a small number of individuals, it hurts a far larger number of individuals. If the hurt inflicted by the DMCA exceeds its benefits it should be repealed.

Societies that don't believe in inalienable rights fail because they are not worth having members of that society.
If that is true then these so-called inalienable rights are per definition part of the laws that strenghten a society.
 
Theft is based on arbitrary standards. In fact, the very act of defining a difference between 'theft' and 'copyright infringement' is arbitrary.

The time limit on copyrights is arbitrary. Why shouldn't something you created be yours forever, and your heirs' property forever as well, just like your house?


The purpose of Copyright Law is to protect a person's right to exploit and benefit from something that they themselves created. This is only reasonable and just. You do not share the earnings of your labour with everyone else. You do not have to divvy up the vegetables you grew in your garden amongst your neighbours.

If you put in the effort required to produce a book or a song or a film or any other piece of "intellectual property" (and as someone who has produced many pieces of intellectual property, I can attest that it takes an enormous amount of effort) it is only just that you should retain exclusive right to exploit that property for material gain.

Of course once you die, there's really no reason to keep that right exclusive, as you can no longer exploit it anyway.

The period over which the copyright is retained is there really to allow your immediate heir to benefit for a time from the fruits of your labour. I think it's reasonable that this happen, but I think extending the duration of the copyright is an unworthy activity. Primarily because it is not the heirs of artists who are pushing the extension of copyright. It is corporations that have purchased the copyright off artists as a condition for publishing their material. Thus the entire intention of copyright - to ensure the creator of the work benefits from it - is lost, and it just makes corporations rich.

In regards to torrent sites, the argument by hosters of such sites is that they themselves have no control over the torrents uploaded. Seeding itself is not illegal, of course. Many torrent sites clearly state that material that breaches copyright is not to be uploaded.

This is the position from which the torrent sites make their claims.

There is an argument that, in almost all legal jurisdictions, aiding others in criminal behaviour is also illegal. Hosting a torrent site, on which you know illegal material is being uploaded (and the operators of those website know the material is there) makes you a party to the offense. In many nations, being a party to an offense makes you liable for whatever any other party to the offense does.

Of course, copyright law is not universally a criminal act.

-Gumboot
 

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