Pink Slime

[Furcifer]

To the other participants in the thread:

She is going to test her hypothesis which is head and shoulders above what anyone else is doing. Let her test and then we can bicker when the results come in.....okay?

I think it's going to take some bickering to get SG to conduct the most objective test possible. I'm geniuinely interested in her test or I wouldn't bother. Despite her objections I know SG is going to take away some positives from this discussion and apply it to her test.

(I was going to say something about women not being able to grill a good burger with or without LBT, but I decided not to)

 

[Marcus]

The leader of our Skeptic's at the Pub group agreed we could do the test at our meeting. But I am trying to work out the details.

It won't be easy. The samples w and w/o LFTB should have the same fat content, otherwise you are just proving that fat tastes good, which we already know. Then there are variations between brands and batches of ground beef. Perhaps you could get several different brands of each type and mix them together to try to minimize the variations.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

It won't be easy. The samples w and w/o LFTB should have the same fat content, otherwise you are just proving that fat tastes good, which we already know. Then there are variations between brands and batches of ground beef. Perhaps you could get several different brands of each type and mix them together to try to minimize the variations.

Fat content is the easiest thing to match. The biggest problem is getting beef we know for sure has LBT in it.

The thing about this particular texture is it is very distinct. It's not about the cut of meat ground or fat content. I keep trying to tell people if that was the issue it wouldn't have started and spread a few years ago. It would have been something that I experienced off and on over the years.

So I plan to ask about texture but in a way that doesn't call attention to that specific observation.


BTW now there are 6 people total (me plus 5 others) that have noticed the texture change in burger according to the poll thread. There are also 3 people who may have noticed the change depending on if the burger they buy which is fresh ground has the additive mixed in. It could. There was nothing that would have prevented a store from doing that. Or, it could be the three people represent a baseline of people who would notice a change not from LBT.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I think it's going to take some bickering to get SG to conduct the most objective test possible. I'm geniuinely interested in her test or I wouldn't bother. Despite her objections I know SG is going to take away some positives from this discussion and apply it to her test.

(I was going to say something about women not being able to grill a good burger with or without LBT, but I decided not to)

Let's see, the positives?

I'm happy with myself not caving to the badgering and I'm confident I am applying the scientific process despite the false assumptions being applied to my comments.

I'm happy there are a couple people in the thread who actually aren't responding to that slew of imagined assumptions.

 

[Furcifer]

Let's see, the positives?

I'm happy with myself not caving to the badgering and I'm confident I am applying the scientific process despite the false assumptions being applied to my comments.

I'm happy there are a couple people in the thread who actually aren't responding to that slew of imagined assumptions.

"Mmm, you can actually taste the persecution in the LBT burgers"

There are a lot of good suggestions coming out of this and I thnk if you take them into account you could prove your hypothesis. I just don't think you realize you've got to prove the FDA wrong, because essentially what they said was "Meh, close enough" and you're saying "Not even close". That's no small feat.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

If I take them into account?

Found any analyses yet of those different burger grinds?


As for proving the FDA wrong? Are you serious? They haven't made any claims that the texture wouldn't be affected by the additive. If that's your rationale here for claiming LBT doesn't affect texture you might want to watch out for bridges for sale.

 

[Howie Felterbush]

Around 9 years ago I started noticing increased bloating and gassiness whenever I indulged in spicy tuna roll, which often led to increased pukiness whenever I hammered the sake. I chalked it up to getting older and falling apart at the time, but now I know there was a more nefarious reason... RED SLIME...

Don't you hate it when you eat a bunch of sushi and get drunk on sake and then when you puke, the seaweed wrapper comes back up and it looks like you ate a roll of electrical tape?

I know I do.

 

[Furcifer]

If I take them into account?

We will see, we will see.

Found any analyses yet of those different burger grinds?

It's all been cited upthread, what do you mean exactly?

As for proving the FDA wrong? Are you serious? They haven't made any claims that the texture wouldn't be affected by the additive. If that's your rationale here for claiming LBT doesn't affect texture you might want to watch out for bridges for sale.

The FDA has basically said your "observation" is all in your head. I concur, but I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility. Geesh, I'm basically giving you the benefit of the doubt, I'm putting you in the top 97th percentile of people that might notice if it's even remotely possible.

Do you acknowledge that most people wouldn't notice the change in a side by side comparison?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

...It's all been cited upthread, what do you mean exactly?

All you've cited is your opinion why burger varies. You haven't produced any analysis of burger showing any of it, no matter how variable, has a fibrous protein composition anything like the analysis of LBT.

..The FDA has basically said your "observation" is all in your head. ..

Assumes facts not in evidence. Allowing a process or a filler to be added to hamburger without labeling was the result of industry lobbying, not as a result of any FDA determination LBT was indistinguishable from hamburger. All the FDA determined was LBT was probably safe. If the FDA determined LBT was the same, producers should be able to sell 100% LBT labeled as burger.

.Do you acknowledge that most people wouldn't notice the change in a side by side comparison?

No. Why would I do that before the test?

 

[tyr_13]

tyr_13 claims that my taste in burgers changing with age explains all the observations, but it doesn't explain why the burger that happened not to have LBT in it still tastes fine. And now I've compared prepackaged corn-fed with fresh ground grass-fed both without LBT in it and both tasted fine.

Rustypouch complains shouting wasn't necessary while the point, "all" observations, continues to go unaddressed with the exception of tyr_13 whose hypothesis didn't really address all the observations.

What observation doesn't my hypothesis explain? It does explain why the other burger happened to still taste fine and it's in your own summery. Happened. You have zero evidence that it was because of the LBT besides current confirmation bias which of course isn't evidence of anything besides your own view.

You got more picky in burgers and now that you've decided you 'know' why, the effect will manifest. It is a plausible explanation even if you don't like it. So again, what observation doesn't it (along with the standard confirmation bias, placebo effect, etc) explain?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

What observation doesn't my hypothesis explain? It does explain why the other burger happened to still taste fine and it's in your own summery. Happened. You have zero evidence that it was because of the LBT besides current confirmation bias which of course isn't evidence of anything besides your own view.

You got more picky in burgers and now that you've decided you 'know' why, the effect will manifest. It is a plausible explanation even if you don't like it. So again, what observation doesn't it (along with the standard confirmation bias, placebo effect, etc) explain?

I have zero evidence and your hypothesis fits all the observations? Let's see.

Observation 1: burger texture changed a number of years ago.

Observation 2: the timing of LBT introduction into the market coincides with the texture change observation.

Observation 3: in all my decades of eating hamburger, until LBT was added to burger, I never tasted the disagreeable texture.

Observation 4: there is still burger that I find OK, again, before I ever heard of LBT. It turns out not to have LBT in it.

Observation 5: the university analysis provides a mechanism explaining the changed texture.

My hypothesis: LBT explains all 5 of these observations.

Your Hypothesis: Taste changes with aging explains these observations. Your hypothesis does not explain #4, especially since I've now found prepackaged burger without LBT that tasted fine to me.

 

[Marcus]

Fat content is the easiest thing to match. The biggest problem is getting beef we know for sure has LBT in it.

The thing about this particular texture is it is very distinct. It's not about the cut of meat ground or fat content. I keep trying to tell people if that was the issue it wouldn't have started and spread a few years ago. It would have been something that I experienced off and on over the years.

So I plan to ask about texture but in a way that doesn't call attention to that specific observation.


BTW now there are 6 people total (me plus 5 others) that have noticed the texture change in burger according to the poll thread. There are also 3 people who may have noticed the change depending on if the burger they buy which is fresh ground has the additive mixed in. It could. There was nothing that would have prevented a store from doing that. Or, it could be the three people represent a baseline of people who would notice a change not from LBT.

A lot will depend on the questions you ask too. Fat will be very important for the question "Which burger tastes better?".

It will be interesting to see which property (if any) correlates with the LFTB burger, "more tender" or "more gristley". I don't see these as compatible.

I suppose you could also ask which burger contains Pink Slime. With the negative connotation intact, will they be able to pick the correct one?

I have much more confidence in a blind test than I do in any number of anecdotes, even those given by skeptics.


ETA: Since LFTB is sometimes used to lower the overall fat content of the meat, perhaps it's percentage is much higher in, say, 6% fat ground beef than in 20%. Just speculating here, but you will need to know the percentage in the meat you use for the test.

 

[tyr_13]

I have zero evidence and your hypothesis fits all the observations? Let's see.

Observation 1: burger texture changed a number of years ago.

Observation 2: the timing of LBT introduction into the market coincides with the texture change observation.

Observation 3: in all my decades of eating hamburger, until LBT was added to burger, I never tasted the disagreeable texture.

Observation 4: there is still burger that I find OK, again, before I ever heard of LBT. It turns out not to have LBT in it.

Observation 5: the university analysis provides a mechanism explaining the changed texture.

My hypothesis: LBT explains all 5 of these observations.

Your Hypothesis: Taste changes with aging explains these observations. Your hypothesis does not explain #4, especially since I've now found prepackaged burger without LBT that tasted fine to me.

Wait, why do you believe my hypothesis doesn't explain the fourth of the listed observations? My idea wasn't that you stopped like burgers at all, but that you stopped like some burgers, and were more selective. The fact that you now like the burger you know doesn't have LBT doesn't need anything more than human bias to explain it.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

A lot will depend on the questions you ask too. Fat will be very important for the question "Which burger tastes better?".

It will be interesting to see which property (if any) correlates with the LFTB burger, "more tender" or "more gristley". I don't see these as compatible.

I suppose you could also ask which burger contains Pink Slime. With the negative connotation intact, will they be able to pick the correct one?

I have much more confidence in a blind test than I do in any number of anecdotes, even those given by skeptics.


ETA: Since LFTB is sometimes used to lower the overall fat content of the meat, perhaps it's percentage is much higher in, say, 6% fat ground beef than in 20%. Just speculating here, but you will need to know the percentage in the meat you use for the test.

I don't know if "tastes better" tells us anything except preference. The company that makes the stuff claimed some people preferred burger with LBT. I plan to have samples with the same fat content.

Re the "more tender" vs "gristly" the claim of tenderness is based on the pressure to cut a patty in half and the gristly is based on the texture chewing. They are two different things. People can draw their own conclusions but they cannot say one is the same as the other.

Of course a blind test is better than an uncontrolled observation. A controlled observation is better than an uncontrolled one. All anecdotes are not equal but a lot of skeptics don't understand that fact.

As far as observing this texture issue, I've been asking the butchers, what's wrong with this stuff?, long before I ever heard of LBT. I've returned burger to the store and I've thrown it out. So I don't have any doubt I've been observing something real and not just imagined.

That doesn't clinch the deal without the test, but LBT has in no way been ruled out by the citations and arguments presented in this thread.


BTW, I welcome suggested test questions.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Wait, why do you believe my hypothesis doesn't explain the fourth of the listed observations? My idea wasn't that you stopped like burgers at all, but that you stopped like some burgers, and were more selective. The fact that you now like the burger you know doesn't have LBT doesn't need anything more than human bias to explain it.

You haven't cited what is this thing that combined with age changing tastes differs besides the LBT. You only speculate something could differ. That's not a complete hypothesis. Your hypothesis is, age changed my tastes. Age plus what? What differs that coincidentally started showing up in some and then later more and more prepackaged chain store burger?

What, besides LBT, differs between the stuff that is OK and the stuff that isn't? You got nothing. If age explains timing (a number of years ago) it doesn't explain what differs between the burger that is OK and the burger that isn't.

Now that LBT has become more widely known the butchers are able to say their stuff has it or doesn't. So far I've tried corn fed, grass fed, fresh ground, and prepackaged, all without LBT and all were OK. As for fat content, I always buy low fat burger and have as long as I can remember. So what does that leave? Your hypothesis is missing a difference besides LBT.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

I've just been googling about the shear test and it seems it is strongly correlated to a number of more human-based measures of tenderness like "trained sensory panel tenderness", consumer panel evaluation and the number of chews a person takes before swallowing.

 

[Furcifer]

All you've cited is your opinion why burger varies. You haven't produced any analysis of burger showing any of it, no matter how variable, has a fibrous protein composition anything like the analysis of LBT.

I don't have any analysis to support my claim that the pages of books aren't the same size. I've googled it, not 1 single study in the history of mankind has ever sought to determine if the pages of books are different sizes.

I guess I can claim the pages of books are all the same size.

Assumes facts not in evidence. Allowing a process or a filler to be added to hamburger without labeling was the result of industry lobbying, not as a result of any FDA determination LBT was indistinguishable from hamburger. All the FDA determined was LBT was probably safe. If the FDA determined LBT was the same, producers should be able to sell 100% LBT labeled as burger.

The FDA clearly states that LBT is beef, and therefore a normal component of ground "beef". What makes you believe they didn't think about this before coming to some determination? Mind read much?

No. Why would I do that before the test?

Maybe your 3 subjects don't have their olfactory senses intact. Did that occur to you? You do know how important smell, and the ability to smell, is when it comes to taste don't you? Your not installing confidence in your ability to carry out a taste test, not one bit. Especially since allergy season is getting into full swing.

I'm going to use the visually impaired or blind to prove LCD TV's are harder to see than traditional TV's. That's OK right?

 

[tyr_13]

You haven't cited what is this thing that combined with age changing tastes differs besides the LBT. You only speculate something could differ. That's not a complete hypothesis. Your hypothesis is, age changed my tastes. Age plus what? What differs that coincidentally started showing up in some and then later more and more prepackaged chain store burger?

What, besides LBT, differs between the stuff that is OK and the stuff that isn't? You got nothing. If age explains timing (a number of years ago) it doesn't explain what differs between the burger that is OK and the burger that isn't.

Now that LBT has become more widely known the butchers are able to say their stuff has it or doesn't. So far I've tried corn fed, grass fed, fresh ground, and prepackaged, all without LBT and all were OK. As for fat content, I always buy low fat burger and have as long as I can remember. So what does that leave? Your hypothesis is missing a difference besides LBT.

Fat content, age of beef, age of the cow the beef came from, hot spots on the grill, fat content, time setting after cooking, cooking technique, distribution of fat, etc can all be expected to vary from producer to producer and from cow to cow. These factors, along with others that I'm probably not thinking of, were of course uncontrolled. These burgers, by your own premise, were different from each other and would vary.

You're also making the correlation/causation fallacy.

Your subsequent looking is invalidated by human biases, the entire reason for controlled testing.

Latch onto the LBT thing all you'd like, but you've done a very poor job of supporting it as the cause of your dislike of these burgers.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I swear I don't know this guy:

J.M. Hirsch is The Associated Press' food editor, [email protected]. Freelance food writer Michele Kayal in Washington contributed to this report.

A taste-tester's beef with "pink slime"? Its texture

The taste was — OK. I took another taste of the first burger, then back to the pink slime burger.
It was not bad. But nor was it good. It was flat. I added more salt. No. It was simply one-dimensional.
And then there was the texture. Unpleasantly chewy bits of what I can only describe as gristle, though they were not visible, seemed to stud the meat of the pink slime burger. The result was a mealy chew that, while not overtly unpleasant, didn't leave me wanting another bite.

I rest my case until the test!

You heel dug in folks may want to reassess your positions about now. My heels are just fine, thank you.

 

[Marcus]

BTW, I welcome suggested test questions.

Snipping for brevity, your post is close by.

"Tastes better" is relevant, if people don't think that the burger without the stuff tastes better (while blinded) than there is really no complaint, we've already established that it's healthy.

Double blinding would be nice, you could have someone do the labeling after you cook the burgers who is not present at the test. Theoretically you could tell the difference between burgers you cooked, but I'm sure you will do your best to keep them uniform. It's important that you participate in the tasting because you are very sure you can tell the difference.

Perhaps the food critic in that link is right, who knows, but he knew exactly what he was eating, his "test" doesn't inspire confidence.