Pink Slime

[GlennB]

“LFTB is not filler; it is nutritionally equivalent to 95% lean beef and doesn’t contain connective tissue.“

An interesting stat given that all meat contains connective tissue, no matter how lean. Otherwise the animal it came from would have fallen down in a heap before it got to the slaughterhouse.

 

[Joey McGee]

Skeptic Ginger claims I won't answer questions! I asked her to list them like this...

1.
2.
3.

For some reason I'm getting nothing. I have some questions for you SG!

1. Why do you refuse to address or retract your previous claims that there is hide in this product?

2. Why do you use the study by Sebranek when he and his colleague say you are wrong about you interpretation of it? Why are they right in the study but wrong in their public statements about it? Why do you argue that they are wrong and you are right about their own *********** study?

3. Why do you refuse to address or retract your claim that the USDA was bribed by BPI with a board seat when that woman hadn't worked at the USDA for 6 months when the product was approved?

4. Why do you use the opinion of a former employee of the USDA as evidence that it is not meat? Do you not realize that he was overruled by an overwhelming majority of his peers and superiors equally reputable opinions? Are you forgetting that he is named in a billion dollar lawsuit that is before the courts at this moment? Why do you use this as an argument?

5. Why have you spent many hours of your life reading this thread but refuse to spend 30 minutes reading the lawsuit?

Have a great day!

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

You know what question you won't answer, Joey, if LFTB is no different than the burger it is used in why can't one buy 100% LFTB burgers?

There's no list list of questions.

 

[Joey McGee]

You know what question you won't answer, Joey, if LFTB is no different than the burger it is used in why can't one buy 100% LFTB burgers?

The funny thing is that I have answered that question countless times. You can disagree with the answer, but that doesn't mean I have not given a reply. Do you understand this or are you so desperate to end the argument that you're sticking to this ********?

For the *********** billionth time...

You can't make a 100% lftb stick together properly because it is too finely textured. It is different structurally, not substantially, that's why they call it finely textured lean beef (cargill) and lean finely textured beef (BPI). So there is a limit on how much you can add without changing how the product behaves in the cooking environment in order to keep it consistent. This is not a major issue. You are trying to insinuate it is without evidence. This is your point to make, you can't just point to something like this and say it proves all of your conspiracy theories are true, that's *********** hysterical.

 

[Myriad]

Now you've got me curious. Why don't pieces of LFTB stick together like other small pieces of beef? A finer grind doesn't make normal ground beef less coherent, let alone making it fall apart. (Quite the opposite. Cookbooks often advise against "overworking" ground beef because that makes the after-cooking texture too firm; that is, the pieces adhere too much.)

What "structural" difference causes these particular "finely textured" pieces to not stick together? What makes them so slippery?

 

[Howie Felterbush]

WD40.

 

[Joey McGee]

Now you've got me curious. Why don't pieces of LFTB stick together like other small pieces of beef? A finer grind doesn't make normal ground beef less coherent, let alone making it fall apart. (Quite the opposite. Cookbooks often advise against "overworking" ground beef because that makes the after-cooking texture too firm; that is, the pieces adhere too much.)

What "structural" difference causes these particular "finely textured" pieces to not stick together? What makes them so slippery?

The pieces of the meat end up all really small, and soft because of the processing. Therefore, the word "fine" comes into play. There are lots of "fine" pieces of meat in normal ground beef, but also, lots of bigger pieces. A good balance of big and "fine" pieces makes a good burger. If they were all big or all small, it wouldn't be good. Lots of small pieces makes for a softer and more pleasurable texture, but too much, and you lose the solid and chewy aspect of the big pieces.

This isn't really complicated and sciency.

 

[Joey McGee]

If anyone wants to argue about why they don't use more than 20%, first, go find me the source where it's actually not allowed, instead of not preferred.

I tried to look it up just now, and all I found was a forum where someone claims to have emailed the USDA and got this response

"There is no limit to the use of LFTB in products, and it is declared as beef in the ingredients statement. It is believed to be self limiting."

http://www.orangepower.com/threads/...thy-school-lunches.187613/page-7#post-2736754

So if you're going to use this supposed limit as an argument, go ahead and email the USDA instead of wasting your time talking to ole drink-sodden popinjay Joey McGee

 

[Myriad]

The pieces of the meat end up all really small, and soft because of the processing. Therefore, the word "fine" comes into play. There are lots of "fine" pieces of meat in normal ground beef, but also, lots of bigger pieces. A good balance of big and "fine" pieces makes a good burger. If they were all big or all small, it wouldn't be good. Lots of small pieces makes for a softer and more pleasurable texture, but too much, and you lose the solid and chewy aspect of the big pieces.

This isn't really complicated and sciency.

That doesn't answer my question though. When I chop up beef with a knife, the pieces stick together very well no matter how finely I chop it.

You said that the reason you can't make a burger out of 100% LFTB is that the pieces don't stick together well enough. "You can't make a 100% lftb stick together properly because it is too finely textured," was your exact claim. But what does the fineness of the texture have to do with how much it sticks together? That's like saying "you can't slice oranges because they're too aromatic." It doesn't make sense.

I would very much like a "sciency" -- that is, factual and based on known physical principles -- explanation of why pieces of LFTB don't stick together. If the reasons are complicated, then a complicated explanation might be necessary. Better that than a "simple" hand-wave.

 

[tyr_13]

An interesting stat given that all meat contains connective tissue, no matter how lean. Otherwise the animal it came from would have fallen down in a heap before it got to the slaughterhouse.

Perhaps it doesn't after being put through a centrifuge.

Seriously, I've been trying to look into it and that actually might be the case. Not sure yet.

Now you've got me curious. Why don't pieces of LFTB stick together like other small pieces of beef? A finer grind doesn't make normal ground beef less coherent, let alone making it fall apart. (Quite the opposite. Cookbooks often advise against "overworking" ground beef because that makes the after-cooking texture too firm; that is, the pieces adhere too much.)

What "structural" difference causes these particular "finely textured" pieces to not stick together? What makes them so slippery?

Lack of connective tissue might do it. And they aren't really slippery and do stick together. The pictures of 'pink slime' aren't actually what it looks like. Some of those pictures are actually 'potted meat'. From what I've been told (and am trying to confirm) it actually kinda does stick together just a bit worse than highly lean ground that gets a little dry.

Again, I've been trying to find some better information from parties not already cited, but 'gristly' isn't always the complaint, and 'rubbery' is sometimes raised as the objection in texture. I'm always suspicious of taste testing that has 'gristly' come up because it's one of the most common placebo reactions in such testing.

Incidentally, this thread comes up in many of my searches on the first page. I've resorted to asking my father to ask around as he currently works as a meat buyer for a food distributor.

EDIT: Yeah, I'm curious too. I want the 'sciency' explanation. It's interesting. Plus I kinda want to experiment with it in cooking, and knowing some of it's properties and reasons therefore would be useful.

 

[Joey McGee]

That doesn't answer my question though. When I chop up beef with a knife, the pieces stick together very well no matter how finely I chop it.

How well does your beef stick together when you heat it to 100F and spin it in a centrifuge?

You said that the reason you can't make a burger out of 100% LFTB is that the pieces don't stick together well enough. "You can't make a 100% lftb stick together properly because it is too finely textured," was your exact claim. But what does the fineness of the texture have to do with how much it sticks together? That's like saying "you can't slice oranges because they're too aromatic." It doesn't make sense.

I said stick together properly. It's not that it doesn't stick together, it's that it's so fine and so soft it's just not like a normal burger. I just don't care really if you don't get it.

I would very much like a "sciency" -- that is, factual and based on known physical principles -- explanation of why pieces of LFTB don't stick together. If the reasons are complicated, then a complicated explanation might be necessary. Better that than a "simple" hand-wave.

If you can't visualize how a billion particles wouldn't form a similar structure to a million particles, I can't help you.

 

[Myriad]

Again, I've been trying to find some better information from parties not already cited, but 'gristly' isn't always the complaint, and 'rubbery' is sometimes raised as the objection in texture. I'm always suspicious of taste testing that has 'gristly' come up because it's one of the most common placebo reactions in such testing.

"Rubbery" would actually be consistent with the behavior of regular ground beef, because that's what happens if ground beef is "over-processed" in the kitchen (too finely ground, or kneaded and compressed too much). Ground poultry almost always has this problem; poultry-patties such as turkey burgers and chicken sausage benefit greatly from having a loosening ingredient (my favorites are ricotta cheese and diced apple, respectively) mixed in.

If the mixed-in LFTB particles tend to form together into larger clumps that cook up "rubbery," that could also explain complaints of "gristly." Over-mixing or under-mixing of the additive into the fresh ground beef could cause textural problems either way.

Incidentally, this thread comes up in many of my searches on the first page. I've resorted to asking my father to ask around as he currently works as a meat buyer for a food distributor.

Cool! Please share what you find out.

 

[tyr_13]

"Rubbery" would actually be consistent with the behavior of regular ground beef, because that's what happens if ground beef is "over-processed" in the kitchen (too finely ground, or kneaded and compressed too much). Ground poultry almost always has this problem; poultry-patties such as turkey burgers and chicken sausage benefit greatly from having a loosening ingredient (my favorites are ricotta cheese and diced apple, respectively) mixed in.

If the mixed-in LFTB particles tend to form together into larger clumps that cook up "rubbery," that could also explain complaints of "gristly." Over-mixing or under-mixing of the additive into the fresh ground beef could cause textural problems either way.

All true, which is why I'm trying to find out more specifically. If possible I want to get a hold of some LFTB to cook separately and in suspension to see if it has the tendency to clump together and get harder, which would explain 'gristly', or if it spreads and would explain 'rubbery' even without over-processing. It's entirely possible that under-mixed yields gristly while over-mixing yields rubbery. It's also possible that there is an overlap of these where there is no sweet zone without one or the other.

I like to use oatmeal or ground (lightly!) veggies for loosening. I've never tried apples, but it sounds good!

Cool! Please share what you find out.

I will. Hopefully he can find something out, or get me some development samples.

 

[Myriad]

How well does your beef stick together when you heat it to 100F and spin it in a centrifuge?

I don't do that. Why would I want to do that? And if I did do that, why would I want to eat the results? Do you think this is helping your case?

I said stick together properly. It's not that it doesn't stick together, it's that it's so fine and so soft it's just not like a normal burger.

Is it Squeezably Soft™, like Charmin™ Brand Bathroom Tissue? Or is it The Ultimate in Snuggly Softness, like the Snuggle Bear™ after being washed in Snuggle™ Brand Fabric Softener? Or is it like the Soft Fine Hair you can get using Herbal Essences™ Brand Shampoo and Conditioner?

Since we seem to have arrived in the Land of Stock Advertising Phrases, I need to learn my way around.

I just don't care really if you don't get it. If you can't visualize how a billion particles wouldn't form a similar structure to a million particles, I can't help you.

I admit that I don't get why after asking you for an explanation of why the billion particles clump differently as you claimed they do, you're faulting me for failing to understand that they clump similarly.

"I have no idea either." Same answer in fewer words.

 

[Myriad]

All true, which is why I'm trying to find out more specifically. If possible I want to get a hold of some LFTB to cook separately and in suspension to see if it has the tendency to clump together and get harder, which would explain 'gristly', or if it spreads and would explain 'rubbery' even without over-processing. It's entirely possible that under-mixed yields gristly while over-mixing yields rubbery. It's also possible that there is an overlap of these where there is no sweet zone without one or the other.

I like to use oatmeal or ground (lightly!) veggies for loosening. I've never tried apples, but it sounds good!

Apple, of course, adds a distinctive and noticeable flavor that you have to allow for in the seasoning. A lot of sage, small amounts of cinnamon and ginger, and thyme and pepper to taste, works pretty well. (An apple-turkey combo sounds more difficult; I'd have to think about where to begin... okay, probably sage again, but after that...?) Texturally, the apple works wonders.

I will. Hopefully he can find something out, or get me some development samples.

Thanks!

 

[Joey McGee]

I don't do that. Why would I want to do that?

Recovering an extra 15 pounds of meat per cow of the exact same meat we already eat is economical and environmentally healthy.

why would I want to eat the results?

Because it is the exact same meat you already eat.

Do you think this is helping your case?

Yes.

Is it Squeezably Soft™, like Charmin™ Brand Bathroom Tissue? Or is it The Ultimate in Snuggly Softness, like the Snuggle Bear™ after being washed in Snuggle™ Brand Fabric Softener? Or is it like the Soft Fine Hair you can get using Herbal Essences™ Brand Shampoo and Conditioner?

Nonsense.

Since we seem to have arrived in the Land of Stock Advertising Phrases, I need to learn my way around.

Do you think I'm on BPI's payroll too?

I admit that I don't get why after asking you for an explanation of why the billion particles clump differently as you claimed they do, you're faulting me for failing to understand that they clump similarly.

"I have no idea either." Same answer in fewer words.

Do you get why you can't use icing sugar the same way you use regular sugar in recipes? If not, I cannot help you.

 

[Butter!]

It continues to shock me just how prevalent paranoia about additives and processing and just food woo in general has become in society. Ironic, because pre-Roosevelt things were a lot grosser in this country when it came to the purity of food. And yet, the species survived.

I'm being a little hyperbolic, of course, but I have relatives who have drunk DEEP from the paranoid food-woo chalice and trying to deal with them is a nightmare. I want to punch the people who come on these daytime talk shows and ramble about chemicals and "natural remedies" and pure nonsense, winding everyone up and fear-mongering. Pink slime fear is in that category, all the research supports that conclusion, sorry.

I'm not talking down to anyone, I just can't see the reasons for concern. And I have looked, long before this thread sucked me in.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

It continues to shock me just how prevalent paranoia about additives and processing and just food woo in general has become in society. Ironic, because pre-Roosevelt things were a lot grosser in this country when it came to the purity of food. And yet, the species survived.

I'm being a little hyperbolic, of course, but I have relatives who have drunk DEEP from the paranoid food-woo chalice and trying to deal with them is a nightmare. I want to punch the people who come on these daytime talk shows and ramble about chemicals and "natural remedies" and pure nonsense, winding everyone up and fear-mongering. Pink slime fear is in that category, all the research supports that conclusion, sorry.

I'm not talking down to anyone, I just can't see the reasons for concern. And I have looked, long before this thread sucked me in.

Other than news reports the process fails to adequately kill the extra burden of microorganisms, no one in the thread is arguing about safety of the product.

My argument is purely about labeling. I don't like the texture of burger with LFTB in it and I'd like to know which burger to avoid.

 

[Myriad]

Recovering an extra 15 pounds of meat per cow of the exact same meat we already eat is economical and environmentally healthy.

Heh. Sure, in the same sense that putting an aerodynamic cowling on a 10 mpg hummer is economical and environmentally healthy.

From an economic and environmental standpoint, beef is a resource-extravagant luxury food even compared to other farmed proteins. It's economical only because many of its production costs are externalities. The whole industry, as currently practiced, is unsustainable. That's why I'm curious but not fussed about pink slime. In the long run (which I predict will be shorter than most people would expect) it's irrelevant. Maybe more additives will help more Americans give the stuff up sooner.

Cheap beef is pretty yummy, I admit, and apparently safer cardiac-health-wise than it's reputed to be. But, unsustainable. That means (if like most people your definition of unsustainable is something like "vaguely bad in a way that I can ignore") it's going to end.

Nonsense.Do you think I'm on BPI's payroll too?Do you get why you can't use icing sugar the same way you use regular sugar in recipes? If not, I cannot help you.

I'm familiar with a lot of particulate materials. The general rule is that the smaller the particles, the more they tend to clump together. A bowl of dry 10X sugar will hold the impression of a spoon; a bowl of dry granulated sugar won't. Whole almonds and chopped almonds don't clump; ground almonds do. Wet pebbles don't clump. Wet sand does. Wet rock dust does even more.

That's why I was curious about why the smaller beef bits hold together less. That's very unusual, the opposite of what I'd expect, and I'd like to know the reason for it. If you don't know, fine.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/an281

These products have been heated, which denatures some proteins; therefore, when the finished LFTB or FTB products are thawed, they have a different, softer, finer texture than conventional trimmings or ground beef (Bottemiller, 2012).

The products are made from the very small pieces of lean that are essentially the outermost portion of a muscle. The outermost portions of all muscles have a significant layer of connective tissue, the epimysium (Forrest et al., 1975), which is primarily comprised of the protein collagen. This could contribute to the findings of He and Sebranek (1996) who reported LFTB to have a higher concentration of collagen compared to traditional beef chuck trimmings.
In addition, according to some who have handled LFTB first-hand and as cited by Bottemiller (2012), an unblended block of LFTB still smells of ammonia. However, the residual ammonia dissipates or dilutes in the ground beef mixture once the product is mixed with conventional trimmings. Therefore, finished, blended ground beef patties containing up to 20% LFTB do not have a detectable odor of ammonia (Bottemiller, 2012).

Slimegate: Should USDA Require Labeling for LFTB?

BPI’s process also changes the texture of beef. “It in fact takes on a different texture. And that is a fine texture, which is very descriptive in its name,” said BPI spokesmen Craig Letch at a press conference featuring three governors and USDA Under Secretary for Food Safety Dr. Elisabeth Hagen.

As for the changed texture being an improvement, soft and tender, that's a marketer's description. A device that measured resistance to cutting found the LFTB took less pressure to cut the burger with the LFTB in it.

That's great, but that's one test. Human's tasting it had mixed reactions to the texture. I wasn't the only one who found the changed texture unpalatable. Tender or not the stuff makes burger rubbery and I also thought it made it taste like there was more gristle ground up in it (which tenderized or not it turns out there is).

So if LFTB contains added ammonia, is 100 times more alkaline, and has both a different texture and sometimes smell, why isn’t it labeled as a component when it’s thawed and mixed in ground beef? Because both the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the U.S. Food and Drug Administration have decided that ammonia is not an additive, but a processing aid.

The decision, however, was not without controversy. There was opposition within the USDA on the issue, as the New York Times reported in 2009, “department microbiologist Gerald Zirnstein, called the processed beef ‘pink slime’ in a 2002 e-mail message to colleagues and said, ‘I do not consider the stuff to be ground beef, and I consider allowing it in ground beef to be a form of fraudulent labeling.’ ‘”

There are other experts in the field who take issue with using ammonia in beef processing because it is known to mask the rancidity and lock in the color of meat. The process can disguise rancidity through both smell and color, which is reminiscent of the controversy over using carbon monoxide in meat packaging to keep meat red, even past its expiration.

The problem with this 'straw man beef industry red herring' is that the issue is not just the ammonia. The issue is the beef in LFTB is significantly changed. And just as you cannot call beef tongue a sirloin steak, lots of parts of the cow that are still all beef are not allowed to be labeled as part of the cow they are not. This is no different from requiring meat cuts be labeled honestly. LFTB is not ground chuck. So why should it be OK to grind it in the burger without telling the consumer?