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Pilots for Truth animation - What is it?

Panoply_Prefect

Graduate Poster
Panoply_Prefect
Joined
Oct 16, 2006
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Sweden
Hi!

Does anyone know the context in which the animation that Pilots for Truth use to claim that the FDR of AA77 flew too high and north of CITGO?

Its allegedly made by NTSB, but I have so far not found it on any official website and as I understand it it differs significantly from the offical NTSB analysis of the FDR.


Cheers,
S
 
I have no idea. The only place that information might exist is in the sticky's at pilotsfor911truth. I'm not convinced the NTSB would give them any context. The person filling FOIA requests isn't likely to be doing background research on the whos/whats/whys/whens/wheres.

I'm not even sure the animation is from FOIA, though. You should check their stickies and see what you find.
 
SLOB said:
Hi!

Does anyone know the context in which the animation that Pilots for Truth use to claim that the FDR of AA77 flew too high and north of CITGO?

Its allegedly made by NTSB, but I have so far not found it on any official website and as I understand it it differs significantly from the offical NTSB analysis of the FDR.

Cheers,
S
Click to expand...
PFT say it came from the NTSB. If so they only plotted certain FDR parameters. The terrain below is relatively places, not with actual data. You can see the final approach to the Pentagon is not lined up with the real heading compared to the ground. PFT should know this but they are using the miss registration as a point of woo.

If they were to look at all the data they would realize they can not place the plane's position absolutely.

The fact is the final position of the FDR from the PFT show 1.5 DME from DCA VOR. The final heading or track is 61.2(true track), 70 (mag heading), 58.8 (true heading), 71.4 (mag track); heading is the direction the plane is pointed, track is the path of the plane over the ground. Wind drift is the difference. On 9/11 the wind was from 330 degrees or so, 5 to 10 knots. With simple trig you can see track vs heading.

It appears the animation ground map is rotated the wrong direction to correct for mag to true, for magnetic variation. That makes the final heading like 81.2 degrees true instead of 61.2 degrees true. You can plot all of this accurately or even use the old 60 to 1 rule.

60 to 1 rule works for quick offsets. At 60 miles, one degree off is about 1 mile. So a one degree heading error at 600 feet would be 10 feet off. 60 to 1 and google earth can show how the map is lined up wrong.

For flight 77 the navigation system errors are in the 1000 to 3000 feet range.

I do not know where they got the animation, they said the NTSB.
 
I believe it was recieved by a member called Undertow.

I think I can remember him stating that he had got it back in the LC days.
 
Here is the thread with the FOIA-letter recieved by the english bloke who filed it:

http://z9.invisionfree.com/Pilots_For_Truth/index.php?showtopic=375

Doesnt really clarify things.

One guy in the first thread claims:

Undertow@PFT forum said:
It comes from a piece of software built to read FDR files and recreate the plane performance as it's recorded in the FDR.
Click to expand...

As I understand it, this is incorrect, neh?

/S
 
Last edited:
beachnut said:
PFT say it came from the NTSB. If so they only plotted certain FDR parameters. The terrain below is relatively places, not with actual data. You can see the final approach to the Pentagon is not lined up with the real heading compared to the ground. PFT should know this but they are using the miss registration as a point of woo.
Click to expand...


This is exactly what I was thinking of. I imagine that since the animation apparently differs from the real NTSB analysis it must have served a different purpose.

However I get a lot of "Look at the NTSB analysis, it is exactly the same as the Pentacon video" from truthers so Im just trying to dig up what I can find... Is there anyone at NTSB that can be contacted, or would they just ignore me?

Cheers,
S
 
Didn't the NTSB animation attempt to correct for true north vs. magnetic North, but corrected in the wrong direction? Thus the wrong heading?
 
SLOB said:
This is exactly what I was thinking of. I imagine that since the animation apparently differs from the real NTSB analysis it must have served a different purpose.

However I get a lot of "Look at the NTSB analysis, it is exactly the same as the Pentacon video" from truthers so Im just trying to dig up what I can find... Is there anyone at NTSB that can be contacted, or would they just ignore me?

Cheers,
S
Click to expand...
They may talk to you just explain what you saw. I think M is right about the correction in the wrong direction.

The PFT extra stuff on the video, comments exc are junk. JDX/PFT use the FDR but ignore the numbers.

The other unknown is how much data never got recorded due to the impact and sudden electrical failure. I image if your digital camera was just storing a photo and you smashed your camera in a 600 mph brick wall, you may not have that last photo stored. The FDR chip survived, but not the sub systems storing data to it. The FDR recorder continuously stores data serially.
 
SLOB said:
Here is the thread with the FOIA-letter recieved by the english bloke who filed it:

http://z9.invisionfree.com/Pilots_For_Truth/index.php?showtopic=375

Doesnt really clarify things.

One guy in the first thread claims:

Undertow@PFT forum said:
It comes from a piece of software built to read FDR files and recreate the plane performance as it's recorded in the FDR.
Click to expand...

As I understand it, this is incorrect, neh?

/S
Click to expand...

Alot of airlines use Flightscape to recreate incident flights. But the NTSB animation looks sort of "Mickey Mouse" in comparison, having a Cessna-looking instrument panel and no terrain underneath(except the Pentagon).

Its clear that the data was manipulated in no less than 2 ways:
- the magnetic heading was corrected(incorrectly) to True North
- the pressure altitude was adjusted to field elevation at the start of the animation(260 ft was added)
 
Last edited:
apathoid said:
Its clear that the data was manipulated in no less than 2 ways:
- the magnetic heading was corrected(incorrectly) to True North
- the pressure altitude was adjusted to field elevation at the start of the animation(260 ft was added)
Click to expand...

Let's not forget a 3-d pentagon was built into the animation. That certainly didn't come from the data.

The notion that the animation is automagically created from the data w/o human intervention is a lie. The notion that the FDR agrees with the north-of-the-citgo flight path is a lie. The notion that the FDR data agrees with the animation is a lie.

They've found a human error in the construction of the animation and claimed, wrongly, that no humans took part in this construction, therefore they wrongly conclude the data says it must be so, and therefore they wrongly conclude that the NTSB says it must have gone north of the CITGO.

All of this is solved, trivially, by looking at the data and realizing that the data and the animation do not match. The realization that a human screwed up solves the conundrum.
 
Anti-sophist said:
All of this is solved, trivially, by looking at the data and realizing that the data and the animation do not match. The realization that a human screwed up solves the conundrum.
Click to expand...

I think that the main problem is that most people doesnt understand the data. A video however, is plain and simple and easy to grasp for anyone. Which is why its unfortunate this animation has no history.

/S
 
JAStewart said:
I believe it was recieved by a member called Undertow.

I think I can remember him stating that he had got it back in the LC days.
Click to expand...

Ahhhh Undertow.... a cocky little sod who turned up on AS's FDR thread cocksure and mouthy, and then left many pages later without nery a word.

'Truther' MO, talk the talk, walk the walk, then fold when it's obvious they are fake.

I still think he/she owes AS a substantial apology..... but I'm realistic enough to know that aint gonna happen any time soon.
 
Hallo, I'm the owner of an italian site dedicated to 9/11 (no conspiracy theories...) and member of an italian team of debunkers.

We got some news about NTSB animations released to PFT: they came really from NTSB but are only "working copy" not intended for official use.
More, NTSB has released an United 93 animation to PFT.

We made an english note about this question, with link to NTSB note referrering to both animations.

I can't post the link, due to limits imposed by this forum to newbie, try to get our article searching google for "undicisettembre" + "paolo attivissimo" + "Flight 77 Animation is Not Official "

Hoping these informations are usefull for you,
regards

John
webmaster of italian site Crono911
 
JohnCrono said:
Hallo, I'm the owner of an italian site dedicated to 9/11 (no conspiracy theories...) and member of an italian team of debunkers.

We got some news about NTSB animations released to PFT: they came really from NTSB but are only "working copy" not intended for official use.
More, NTSB has released an United 93 animation to PFT.

We made an english note about this question, with link to NTSB note referrering to both animations.

I can't post the link, due to limits imposed by this forum to newbie, try to get our article searching google for "undicisettembre" + "paolo attivissimo" + "Flight 77 Animation is Not Official "

Hoping these informations are usefull for you,
regards

John
webmaster of italian site Crono911
Click to expand...

http://undicisettembre.blogspot.com/
 
JohnCrono said:
I can't post the link, due to limits imposed by this forum to newbie, try to get our article searching google for "undicisettembre" + "paolo attivissimo" + "Flight 77 Animation is Not Official "

Hoping these informations are usefull for you,
regards

John
webmaster of italian site Crono911
Click to expand...
Welcome John, I'll post the link for you: http://undicisettembre.blogspot.com/

Scroll down for the English version.

eta: damn A W Smith... ;)
 
Fantastic site btw John - the article about oxygen cutting is very informative.
 
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