Perry lets the terrorists win

[cwalner]

Show me where Obama (or Bush for that matter) said that his policy (any policy) as a directive from god.

Show me where Obama (or Bush for that matter) created a pray for X day, or set up his own prayer rally.

The closest that I can think of is that Bush did claim to speak with god and that he was inspired by god to run for office, but I don't think he overtly claimed that any specific policy was a directive from god.

 

[mhaze]

Show me where Obama (or Bush for that matter) said that his policy (any policy) as a directive from god.

Show me where Obama (or Bush for that matter) created a pray for X day, or set up his own prayer rally.

There is no shortage of this kind of stuff. I note that you've tried to narrow the focus of the argument down to the "pray for X/prayer rally". I suggest instead taking a more comprehensive look at religion and US presidents. There are countless examples of things that an unbiased skeptic should find equally objectionable (or not) as those things you single out in Perry, including ones previously noted from Obama. A few more:

Jimmy Carter, 1976.
"I've wondered to talk about [my faith] at all. ... But I feel I have a duty to the country -- and maybe to God -- not to say 'no comment.'"

Bill Clinton, 1996.
"The Bible asks, 'If your child asks for bread, would you give him a stone? If he asks for fish, would you give him a serpent? If he asks for an egg, would you give him a scorpion?' Our children are what we give them, what we teach them. We dare not forget that basic truth. Their lives and our common future depend upon it."

Jimmy Carter, 1980.
"I suggest that when you get home, you get your Bible if you've got one -- I'm sure you have -- turn to Exodus 20 and read the Third Commandment. ... Well, don't forget now when you get home, read the Bible, okay? How many of you will look it up? Okay. Keep your promise."

George H. W. Bush, 1992.
"The other party took words to put together their platform, but left out three simple letters: G-O-D."
​

 

[Bri]

There is no shortage of this kind of stuff.

What do you mean by "this kind of stuff?" Do you really not understand the difference between a politician talking about God and a politician basing their policies on a directive from him?

-Bri

 

[mhaze]

What do you mean by "this kind of stuff?" Do you really not understand the difference between a politician talking about God and a politician basing their policies on a directive from him?

-Bri

I see that it's time for me to repeat #114 for YOUR BENEFIT:

You're only bitching about religiousity of those who are politically opposite to your liberal nature:

http://campaign2012.washingtonexamin...ith-his-agenda

President Obama made an appeal to the religious faith of black voters at a Congressional Black Caucus rally, likening Biblical prophets who had faith in God -- and so refused to worship an idol -- to the black voters who "keep the faith" by supporting him and his policies - and, he hopes, his reelection campaign.

Obama opened the speech by mentioning the Biblical story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, three captive Jews who were thrown into a fiery furnace because they would not worship a golden idol. Obama quoted a pastor who referred to the three men as "good crazy" for having that faith. He added that the pastor had attributed the same "good crazy" to him when he decided to run for president.

Obama continued that analogy, equating the Jews' "faith in the things not seen" to the more mundane "belief that if you persevere a better day lies ahead."

Obama added, "you and me, we're all a little bit crazy, but hopefully a good kind of crazy...We’re a good kind of crazy because no matter how hard things get, we keep the faith; we keep fighting; we keep moving forward."

Obama then explained how he had "kept the faith" through various acts as president .....​

.....But don't worry, we understand. It's all about developing a narrative, stereotyping and demonizing the opposition.​

How is this not directly combining religion and policy? Including, in a rather troublesome way, the question of faith? If you don't understand how that concept is used in the World of Christians, don't even bother to answer.

 

[BobTheDonkey]

I see that it's time for me to repeat #114 for YOUR BENEFIT:

You're only bitching about religiousity of those who are politically opposite to your liberal nature:

http://campaign2012.washingtonexamin...ith-his-agenda

President Obama made an appeal to the religious faith of black voters at a Congressional Black Caucus rally, likening Biblical prophets who had faith in God -- and so refused to worship an idol -- to the black voters who "keep the faith" by supporting him and his policies - and, he hopes, his reelection campaign.

Obama opened the speech by mentioning the Biblical story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, three captive Jews who were thrown into a fiery furnace because they would not worship a golden idol. Obama quoted a pastor who referred to the three men as "good crazy" for having that faith. He added that the pastor had attributed the same "good crazy" to him when he decided to run for president.

Obama continued that analogy, equating the Jews' "faith in the things not seen" to the more mundane "belief that if you persevere a better day lies ahead."

Obama added, "you and me, we're all a little bit crazy, but hopefully a good kind of crazy...We’re a good kind of crazy because no matter how hard things get, we keep the faith; we keep fighting; we keep moving forward."

Obama then explained how he had "kept the faith" through various acts as president .....​

.....But don't worry, we understand. It's all about developing a narrative, stereotyping and demonizing the opposition.​

How is this not directly combining religion and policy? Including, in a rather troublesome way, the question of faith?

Obama's faith being discussed was not his faith in god. And even if it was, the faith he alludes to later is his supporters faith in Change for the better. As in: "We're a good kind of crazy because no matter how hard [the Republicans/Tea Partiers/Haters fight against us], we keep the faith [that we can cause change for the better]; we keep fighting [for that change]; we keep moving forward [toward a better tomorrow]."

And, before you try to claim it does, no, mhaze, those alterations do not change the meaning of what Obama said in any significant manner. In fact, the article draws that distinction itself...right before the quote I've paraphrased:

Obama continued that analogy, equating the Jews' "faith in the things not seen" to the more mundane "belief that if you persevere a better day lies ahead."

So the faith that Obama is referring to when he describes the faith of his supporters is, indeed, faith that "if you persevere a better day lies ahead".


Not exactly on par with Perry calling on his god to make it rain.

 

[JFrankA]

I see that it's time for me to repeat #114 for YOUR BENEFIT:

You're only bitching about religiousity of those who are politically opposite to your liberal nature:

http://campaign2012.washingtonexamin...ith-his-agenda

President Obama made an appeal to the religious faith of black voters at a Congressional Black Caucus rally, likening Biblical prophets who had faith in God -- and so refused to worship an idol -- to the black voters who "keep the faith" by supporting him and his policies - and, he hopes, his reelection campaign.

Obama opened the speech by mentioning the Biblical story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, three captive Jews who were thrown into a fiery furnace because they would not worship a golden idol. Obama quoted a pastor who referred to the three men as "good crazy" for having that faith. He added that the pastor had attributed the same "good crazy" to him when he decided to run for president.

Obama continued that analogy, equating the Jews' "faith in the things not seen" to the more mundane "belief that if you persevere a better day lies ahead."

Obama added, "you and me, we're all a little bit crazy, but hopefully a good kind of crazy...We’re a good kind of crazy because no matter how hard things get, we keep the faith; we keep fighting; we keep moving forward."

Obama then explained how he had "kept the faith" through various acts as president .....​

.....But don't worry, we understand. It's all about developing a narrative, stereotyping and demonizing the opposition.​

How is this not directly combining religion and policy? Including, in a rather troublesome way, the question of faith? If you don't understand how that concept is used in the World of Christians, don't even bother to answer.

What do you mean by "this kind of stuff?" Do you really not understand the difference between a politician talking about God and a politician basing their policies on a directive from him?

-Bri

Appearently, Bri, he does not.

 

[Bri]

You're only bitching about religiousity of those who are politically opposite to your liberal nature:

Nope, care to try again without the straw man?

How is this not directly combining religion and policy? Including, in a rather troublesome way, the question of faith?

I read what you posted the first time you posted it, and I still don't see where Obama said he based policy decisions on directives from God. "Keeping the faith" through acts as president isn't the same thing as basing acts on directives from God if that's what you're attempting to imply.

-Bri

 

[WildCat]

Why is Israel attacking the USS Liberty the act of an ally while Al Queda attacking USS Cole the act of an enemy ?

Was Israel an ally in 1967?

 

[mhaze]

Obama's faith being discussed was not his faith in god. And even if it was, the faith he alludes to later is his supporters faith in Change for the better. As in: "We're a good kind of crazy because no matter how hard [the Republicans/Tea Partiers/Haters fight against us], we keep the faith [that we can cause change for the better]; we keep fighting [for that change]; we keep moving forward [toward a better tomorrow]."

And, before you try to claim it does, no, mhaze, those alterations do not change the meaning of what Obama said in any significant manner. In fact, the article draws that distinction itself...right before the quote I've paraphrased:



So the faith that Obama is referring to when he describes the faith of his supporters is, indeed, faith that "if you persevere a better day lies ahead".


Not exactly on par with Perry calling on his god to make it rain.

Good try!

But a fail in my humble opinion.

Here's the relevant part of Perry's proclamation you claim is "Perry calling on his god to make it rain".

WHEREAS, throughout our history, both as a state and as individuals, Texans have been strengthened, assured and lifted up through prayer; it seems right and fitting that the people of Texas should join together in prayer to humbly seek an end to this devastating drought and these dangerous wildfires;

NOW, THEREFORE, I, RICK PERRY, Governor of Texas, under the authority vested in me by the Constitution and Statutes of the State of Texas, do hereby proclaim the three-day period from Friday, April 22, 2011, to Sunday, April 24, 2011, as Days of Prayer for Rain in the State of Texas. I urge Texans of all faiths and traditions to offer prayers on those days for the healing of our land, the rebuilding of our communities and the restoration of our normal way of life.​

He does NOT call on his god to make it rain. Rather, he urges people to do that. So much for your little mis statement. Perry is in no way "in the action" between the desired effect (rain) and the supposed cause (prayer).

On the contrary, Obama appealed directly to the religious faith with himself as the object of that faith. Obama is (in his own mind) "the active force" between the desired effect (his policies) and the supposed cause (faith in him by the worshipers in the churches). He then notes that he had "kept the faith" with his policies.

Smells like the intermingling of religion and politics....


SIDE NOTE:

This guy tracks ALL references to gods in politicians' speeches and analyses them.

http://www.com.washington.edu/faculty/domke.html

 

[WildCat]

Tell me, MHaze, would you be so quick to defend Obama if he came sent out this invitation:



Or if he made this policy:



Or if a blogger complained about Obama because he made this statement:



Would you be so quick to defend Obama if he did that, and I started a thread called "Obama is letting the terrorists win"?

What if Obama said:

NOW, THEREFORE, I, BARACK OBAMA, President of the United States of America, do hereby proclaim May 5, 2011, as a National Day of Prayer. I invite all citizens of our Nation, as their own faith or conscience directs them, to join me in giving thanks for the many blessings we enjoy, and I ask all people of faith to join me in asking God for guidance, mercy, and protection for our Nation.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this twenty-ninth day of April, in the year of our Lord two thousand eleven, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and thirty-fifth.

BARACK OBAMA

From obvious parody site.

 

[johnny karate]

How is this not directly combining religion and policy? Including, in a rather troublesome way, the question of faith?

Because it's clearly not. Nowhere does Obama indicate - as Rick Perry quite overtly did - that he would or has allowed his religion to influence policy decisions.

What do you mean by "this kind of stuff?" Do you really not understand the difference between a politician talking about God and a politician basing their policies on a directive from him?

Apparently, that's too nuanced of a concept for some people to grasp.

 

[funk de fino]

Was Israel an ally in 1967?

That's two Skeptic type posts in this thread?

 

[JFrankA]

There is no shortage of this kind of stuff. I note that you've tried to narrow the focus of the argument down to the "pray for X/prayer rally". I suggest instead taking a more comprehensive look at religion and US presidents. There are countless examples of things that an unbiased skeptic should find equally objectionable (or not) as those things you single out in Perry, including ones previously noted from Obama. A few more:

Jimmy Carter, 1976.
"I've wondered to talk about [my faith] at all. ... But I feel I have a duty to the country -- and maybe to God -- not to say 'no comment.'"

Bill Clinton, 1996.
"The Bible asks, 'If your child asks for bread, would you give him a stone? If he asks for fish, would you give him a serpent? If he asks for an egg, would you give him a scorpion?' Our children are what we give them, what we teach them. We dare not forget that basic truth. Their lives and our common future depend upon it."

Jimmy Carter, 1980.
"I suggest that when you get home, you get your Bible if you've got one -- I'm sure you have -- turn to Exodus 20 and read the Third Commandment. ... Well, don't forget now when you get home, read the Bible, okay? How many of you will look it up? Okay. Keep your promise."

George H. W. Bush, 1992.
"The other party took words to put together their platform, but left out three simple letters: G-O-D."
​

It's one thing for a politician to proclaim their faith. That, I have no problem with. I have no problem with a politician even showing up at a religious gathering (that she/he did NOT organize and run) and calling on god for help.

It is quite another when a politician makes a LEGAL U.S. GOVERNMENT proclamation to reserve a weekend to tell his citizens to pray for rain. Or to have his citizens go to a large prayer meeting that she/he organized while in office.

Once again, the problem isn't his religion, nor whether he prays in his office during the day. The problem is when he mixes religion with politics. He has no qualms of doing so.

Further, you haven't answered my question. To be fair, I'll say I wasn't clear. Let me make them more clear:

Show me where Obama (or Bush for that matter) said that his policies (any policies) comes from a directive from god.

Show me where Obama (or Bush for that matter) used his US Government elected office to create a pray for X day, or set up his own prayer rally.

Again, mentioning his religion is fine. Again, if Perry had said

"Well, obviously, Israel is our oldest and most stable democratic ally in that region. That is what this is about. Also, as a Christian, I feel that we should support Israel. So from my perspective, it's pretty easy."

I would have no problem with that. Even that shows that he is at least attempting to separate church and state. But to say,

"Well, obviously, Israel is our oldest and most stable democratic ally in that region. That is what this is about. I also as a Christian have a clear directive to support Israel. So from my perspective, it's pretty easy. Both as an American and as a Christian, I am going to stand with Israel."

He is blurring the line. And he has done so and continues to as governor. His past records show that he is not trusted as someone who can, or who may even be willing to, separate church and state.

This is directly important considering that part of the attack on 9.11 was to prove to the world that the attack was the beginning of a "holy war", i.e. Christians vs Muslims. Bush avoided anything close that could be mistaken as such. So has Obama. But Perry does not.

Is this him being naive? Or calculated? You know what, I don't care. You don't use the US Government to push a religious belief. Perry is consistent in doing just that.

 

[johnny karate]

He does NOT call on his god to make it rain. Rather, he urges people to do that. So much for your little mis statement. Perry is in no way "in the action" between the desired effect (rain) and the supposed cause (prayer).

On the contrary, Obama appealed directly to the religious faith with himself as the object of that faith. Obama is (in his own mind) "the active force" between the desired effect (his policies) and the supposed cause (faith in him by the worshipers in the churches). He then notes that he had "kept the faith" with his policies.

Smells like the intermingling of religion and politics....

None of this idiotic hair-splitting and half-baked sophistry has anything to do with the issue at hand.

Rick Perry indicated he would allow his religion to influence policy decisions.

Obama has not.

 

[mhaze]

Because it's clearly not. Nowhere does Obama indicate - as Rick Perry quite overtly did - that he would or has allowed his religion to influence policy decisions.

Apparently, that's too nuanced of a concept for some people to grasp.

No, of COURSE NOT. When Obama says he has

....he had "kept the faith" through various acts as president .....

Why, it doesn't refer to the CHRISTIAN faith. NO WAY! Just because it's said in a religious context in a Church to a bunch of religious people it wouldn't refer to any sort of Christian faith.

Of COURSE NOT!

NO WAY!!!

Wait....this is the dude that said on National Prayer Breakfast...

The president said he also prayed that "a better day will dawn" over Egypt....

"We pray that violence in Egypt will end, and the rights and aspirations of the Egyptian people will be realized," Obama said.​

Of course you could argue, that since he has no policy toward Egypt, those prayers and all that religousity could not influence policy...

 

[BobTheDonkey]

No, of COURSE NOT. When Obama says he has

....he had "kept the faith" through various acts as president .....

Why, it doesn't refer to the CHRISTIAN faith. NO WAY! Just because it's said in a religious context in a Church to a bunch of religious people it wouldn't refer to any sort of Christian faith.

Of COURSE NOT!

NO WAY!!!

Already explained this one to you, mhaze. Obama was not referring to keeping his Christian faith but to keeping the faith in a better tomorrow. Do try to keep up.

Wait....this is the dude that said on National Prayer Breakfast...

The president said he also prayed that "a better day will dawn" over Egypt....

"We pray that violence in Egypt will end, and the rights and aspirations of the Egyptian people will be realized," Obama said.​

Of course you could argue, that since he has no policy toward Egypt, those prayers and all that religousity could not influence policy...

And "praying for peace" is hardly anything more than an indication that one hopes peace prevails.

But, then, I'm not a fan of Obama continuing with the National Prayer day (or whatever it's called). But just because he signs a (traditional) memo for a day of prayer does not mean he relies on his god (or religious beliefs) to determine his policy.

 

[johnny karate]

No, of COURSE NOT. When Obama says he has

....he had "kept the faith" through various acts as president .....

Why, it doesn't refer to the CHRISTIAN faith. NO WAY! Just because it's said in a religious context in a Church to a bunch of religious people it wouldn't refer to any sort of Christian faith.

Even if you do interpret the term "kept the faith" in the most religious context possible, all he said was that he remained a Christian throughout his presidency.

There's no way to interpret that statement as meaning Obama used his religion to influence his policy decision the way Rick Perry said he would.

Wait....this is the dude that said on National Prayer Breakfast...

The president said he also prayed that "a better day will dawn" over Egypt....

"We pray that violence in Egypt will end, and the rights and aspirations of the Egyptian people will be realized," Obama said.​

Of course you could argue, that since he has no policy toward Egypt, those prayers and all that religousity could not influence policy...

The president can pray. He can also request that other people pray.

But that's not what we're talking about.

Rick Perry indicated he would allow his religion to influence policy decisions.

Obama has not.

 

[mhaze]

...The president can pray. He can also request that other people pray.

But that's not what we're talking about. ....

Except when we were talking about Perry requesting that others pray for rain in his proclamation.

NO IGNORE THAT! GIVE OBAMA A FREE PASS!

Even if you do interpret the term "kept the faith" in the most religious context possible....

Keeping the faith means explicitly that to keep your Christian faith, you have faith in Obama, and his policies, and you vote for him. "Thru various acts" means that his Christian faith influences and directs his acts.

Obama then explained how he had "kept the faith" through various acts as president .....

I actually agree with you that we can interpret this statement different ways. We should interpret it in the way most FAVORABLE TO OBAMA! OF COURSE!!!

Now let's take Perry.

Well, obviously, Israel is our oldest and most stable democratic ally in that region. That is what this is about. I also as a Christian have a clear directive to support Israel. So from my perspective, it's pretty easy. Both as an American and as a Christian, I am going to stand with Israel.

HEY I GOT AN IDEA!

LET'S JUST GIVE OBAMA A FREE PASS AGAIN!

 

[Bri]

Obama then explained how he had "kept the faith" through various acts as president .....

I actually agree with you that we can interpret this statement different ways. We should interpret it in the way most FAVORABLE TO OBAMA! OF COURSE!!!

Even if Obama was referring to faith in God (which is far from obvious), the statement wouldn't mean that he bases policy decisions on directives from God.

-Bri

 

[mhaze]

Whatever interpretations you claim can be made of this statement, it certainly doesn't mean that he bases policy decisions on directives from God.

-Bri

Goalpost moving noted. Basing policy on "directives from God" is not the same as religious dogma influencing policy decisions.

Now does Perry base policy decisions on "directives from God"? We sure as hell haven't seen that in Texas so I need some know it all liberal to clue me in.

Of course it' not the argument of the OP, but I'm sure you'll answer yes, confidently and imprudently, such that it would be easy to pick apart the answer, so here is your opportunity to talk about "directives from God".

<<We'll leave aside Obama's ideas that he "channels God when he speaks publicly or talks to his kids" for the moment>> I know you don't want to hear about that.