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Perpetual motion machine examination rules, please.

I am here. said:
Yeah well, that was why I figured they would make me run it in a vaccuum for a prescribed period of time to prove that stored energy wasn't being used.
Time because of battery type cheating and vaccuum because of the incompatability of combustible fuels.

You shouldn't insult people. It closes doorways through which your mind has to pass.
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You could put a battery in there that could run a fan for months. What's your time limit?

Who is going to supply the equipment necessary to supply a hard vacuum for that length of time?

Where are you going to get the people to sit around and watch the thing 24/7 for that amount of time?

Have you put any thought into this?
 
word folks. thank you sincerely for this enlightening talk. i should hope to meet with you in person someday.
 
I am here, here's my prediction of what will happen. Your claim will not be accepted for the million if you won't open the box. Put succintly, this is a challenge of paranormal ability. The ability to conceal batteries/feul cells/hamster on a wheel in a box is not paranormal. If you have some new power source, great. Apply for a patent like everyone is saying. If it works, the million will be chump change. If not, you're wasting everyone's time.
 
I am here. said:
word folks. thank you sincerely for this enlightening talk. i should hope to meet with you in person someday.
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Yes, very nice but you don't seem to have answered the questions.

What happens when, should your challenge be accepted, you begin the negotiation for the testing protocols? What happens if people ask the same questions I have, and I'm sure they will ask similar ones?

Will you simply refuse to answer them because you think they are insulting you or something?

Really, I'd like to know.
 
I am here. said:
The whole point of this was to get info before the app. Don;t repeat yourself. You're starting to sound like you have comprehension probs.
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I think the only comprehension point that is missed is by you.

You don't seem to realize that to prove this claim you will need to show your work. You will need to show the inner workings or no one will believe anything but this being a hoax.

Otherwise, it seems you have something to hide.
 
I am here. said:
I am more than happy to do whatever is necessary to prove that it works as long as I don't have to show someone how it is working. I can however show how it is not working. That is, show that it isn't using gasoline, batteries, springs, or whatever else anyone could come up.
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With this post you officially stopped making sense.



Plus, you most obviously did not read (or understand) the Challenge Rules and the Challenge FAQ. Neither did you read the links I provided in post #6.

Fowlsound provided you with straightforward facts and questions. You claim insults? Do you also blame gravity for slowing down your "device"?



Think it through.

Make it work.

Then apply.


In his lecture at Princeton University, James Randi told his audience that there have already been patents obtained for PMDs. He could not imagine why because NONE OF THOSE DEVICES DID ACTUALLY WORK WHEN EXPOSED TO BROAD DAYLIGHT.
 
*sigh* "I am here", have you built that device or is it just on paper or in your head?

I too am not representing the JREF, but it might be possible to test a device without opening it. If the energy output can be showed to significantly exceed what is physically possible (with present technology) to store in your box, considering its size and weight, then there might be a possibility. And, of course, any external input should be excluded.

However, if you have indeed invented a perpetual motion machine, the JREF prize is rather uninteresting for you. As people above have already pointed out, you should immidiately get it patented, lest somebody else makes the same invention and applies for a patent before you.

The commercial and publicity potential for your invention are such that the money and fame from winning the JREF prize will be merely ornamental. You are headed for an eternal place in history, and profits that will enable you to hire Bill Gates to polish your shoes. In short, you are wasting your precious time here.

.....That is, if your device works. As long as you haven't thoroughly tested this, you have work to do. And it is work you have to do yourself. If you think the JREF will test your idea for you, you are mistaken. The JREF will let you demonstrate your device, provided you apply properly and agree on a protocol, and if you can convince them it actually works contrary to known physical laws, you can win the million $.

Hans
 
I am here. said:
It is a secret after all. I intend to capitalize on it. If everyone knows how to build one then I sacrifice my monopoly. I have little faith in the strength of patents. While they have been useful in the past, this piece of technology is a long way from a special drill bit or napkin folder.
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How are you going to capitalize on this? Are you going to sell these power units or are you going to keep a great big one in your basement and have a monster extension lead to everywhere else? I suspect the second alternative won't scale :)

If you're going to sell power units, how are you going to protect your rights? There are essentially three mechanisms

1) patent
2) trade secret
3) copyright

I'm fairly sure #3 doesn't apply in this case. You've rejected #1, so that leaves #2. Trade secrets rely on the complexity of reverse engineering. To defeat it someone would have to buy one of your units, and then look in the box. Once they've done that, your monopoly has gone.

If you really do have an infinite engery unit, how long after you start selling them do you suspect it'll take people to figure out how to copy it?
 
I am here. said:
Yeah well, that was why I figured they would make me run it in a vaccuum for a prescribed period of time to prove that stored energy wasn't being used.
Time because of battery type cheating and vaccuum because of the incompatability of combustible fuels.
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In a vacuum, a fan doesn't require any energy to make it turn, because there's no air around to slow it down. If you start it turning, it will keep turning forever.

Rocket engines carry their own oxygen so they can work in a vacuum.

Have you heard of radioisotope thermoelectric generators? According to http://saturn1.jpl.nasa.gov/spacecraft/safety/chap2.pdf (p. 2-14), each of the RTGs on the Cassini space probe to Saturn is 114 cm long and 42 cm in diameter, puts out 285 watts of power initially, and has a half-life of over 87 years. It could fit easily in your box and spin a fan for a lifetime.

To be honest, I don't think you have an RTG in your box; I'm just letting you know what's currently possible. But, also to be honest, I don't even know whether you actually have a box, or just an idea for one.

Have you built one of your boxes? If so, what's the longest time it has run for?
 
Uhh, these RTGs, while compact and powerful, have a few giveaways: They dissipate a lot of heat (because they are not very efficient), and they give off a lot of radiation. Not a big problem on Cassini, but you wouldnt want one in your living-room.

Hans
 
Hey "i am here"

You have to propose a test protocol for the challenge. What's your test protocol? Remember, it has to convince people to part with a million dollars.

Since PMDs don't work, unfortunately, you're either deluded or a fraud. Sorry to have to put it so bluntly. If you have cracked it, great! Cold beer for eternity! :)

Best of luck with devising a protocol and here's hoping you have solved mankind's energy problems forever!
 
I am here. said:
Of course, the easiest way to do this might be to just describe exactly what it is that I've got here. So, essentially what it is is a big (6'X6'X2' standing up) box that has a small hole in its side from which a shaft protrudes to which a fan is attached.
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Does your perpetual motion machine use normal matter or exotic matter?

If it uses normal matter, then I don't see how it could work. Basically normal matter obeys Newton's Laws of Motion, which means that all the forces cancel out and friction eventually brings it to a halt.

Most "perpetual motion machines" rely on complicated designs, with weights sliding back and forth or going in and out of water or past magnets. The forces always sum up to zero, but it's easy to overlook one of the forces and get the wrong total. If that happens, you might wrongly believe that you can generate excess energy. Figuring out where you made the mistake can be a lot of fun!

Have you checked the Gallery of Perpetual Motion Machines to see if you've rediscovered an existing design?

(Pay special attention to this page, which has lots of useful information on testing your machine.)

If you're using exotic matter that doesn't follow Newton's Laws of Motion, then perpetual motion machines can work. Some useful kinds of exotic matter would be Cavorite (which acts as a gravity insulator) or Formula X (which has variable inertia) or Mithril (which generates electromagnetic energy when in the presence of evil).

In that case, I don't think you need to demonstrate your machine. Just demonstrating the properties of the material will be enough to get you the million dollars.
 
ChaosEngineer said:
*snip*
If you're using exotic matter that doesn't follow Newton's Laws of Motion, then perpetual motion machines can work. Some useful kinds of exotic matter would be Cavorite (which acts as a gravity insulator) or Formula X (which has variable inertia) or Mithril (which generates electromagnetic energy when in the presence of evil).

In that case, I don't think you need to demonstrate your machine. Just demonstrating the properties of the material will be enough to get you the million dollars.
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Or Flubber, which has a bounce efficiency of over 100% and generates antigravity when electrical current is passed through it, or Cryptonite which ... wha?

...Sorry, carry on, everybody.

Hans
 
I am here. said:
No one can look inside the box. This makes it more difficult to test, I understand. But I also understand that Mr. Randi is interested only in the fact that it does work, not how it works.
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If no one is allowed to look inside the box, how can it be tested? Remember, no test, no possible payday.

M.
 
ChaosEngineer said:
If it uses normal matter, then I don't see how it could work. Basically normal matter obeys Newton's Laws of Motion, which means that all the forces cancel out and friction eventually brings it to a halt.
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To be fair, this says more about your (lack of) imagination than about his device. I'm sure that I couldn't have imagined how a nuclear pile worked in 1900. "I am here" may genuinely have discovered some property of "normal matter" that has escaped physicists world-wide for the past few millenia.

... but that's not the way I'd bet.

I think there are a number of facets here that he is simply making more complicated than necessary. Remember Kramer's magic questions?

"HOW DO YOU PLAN TO DEMONSTRATE YOUR CLAIM"?

"I am here," if you apply for the challenge, you will be given the opportunity to propose a method of proving that your device works. If you can come up with a scientifically acceptable and verifiable method of showing that your device works without opening the box, you can probably persuade Randi and Kramer to accept that method. However, there is also a long-established tradition of PMD's being offered by the genuinely fraudulent and the merely deluded, so you should expect that whatever method you propose, it will be subject to a fairly searching and thorough analysis by some of the best physicists and engineers that Mr. Randi can call upon (and he can call upon the best in the world).

I also think that your fears are misplaced. If you think that Randi can take the device apart and reverse engineer it, how are you going to sell one of these bad boys to me? You think that I won't do the same thing?

As a device, it's uncopyrightable. As a physical object, there's basically no way to keep it a "trade secret" if you're planning on selling it. That really does only leave patents as a way to protect your invention....
 
Sorry I'm late to the party. As noted, there's going to be two basic ways to demonstrate your machine achieves perpetual motion:

1. It will be examined thouroughly, inside and out, to confirm its operation fits the definition of perpetual motion. (Given your reluctance, it seems you won't consider this option, which is your prerogative).

2. It will be examined thouroughly for external sources of energy, then it must demonstrate the production of more energy than could be contained in the box. Specifically, its energy output could be measured for a period of time. This energy output would have to subtract any potential exterior sources of energy, such as light (or other EM radiation), air, etc. Sealing it air-tight and taking other such precautions would help reduce the amount of energy that would have to be subtracted from the total. Then, it should be a simple matter to compare the system's mass before and after the measured period. If the total output energy exceeds the amount of mass lost by the system, you'd have a pretty strong claim for breaking one or more laws of physics and have something "paranormal" enough for the prize.

To answer what appears to be your specific question:

NO. A demonstration of a machine that simply runs for "awhile" (even years) is not sufficient evidence of perpetual motion. Sorry. It would be easy in space (were one fortunate enough to already be floating there, and far away from any massive body) to give some small amount of energy to an object, which would then be in "motion" for many thousands, millions, or even billions of years. That isn't paranormal, it's just a misunderstanding of what "perpetual motion" means in a scientific sense.
 
I am here. said:
A patent does not actually do anything. It only gives one prosecution rights. It will still be copied. So, I suppose the real kicker is that if you can believe I've come up with perpetual motion then you can just trust me when I say that one of these machines can produce an unlimited amount of energy. So, if its copied even once...
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So why worry about a patent. Just build one, get it running and sell the energy for 1/2 the price the power companies are charging. You can supply the electrical needs of the entire country with one machine. Forget the challenge- the money you'll make selling unlimited energy will make the million look like pocket change.
 
You do not want to apply for a patent or allow anyone to see inside your invention for fear that your tech will be stolen. If this product did work, and was built and distributed, what would stop any person from opening the box and replicating the technology. Without a patent you would have no mechanism for recourse. As someone with several patents under my name, I'm a bit curious how you intend to secure your design without one.

Additionally, the term "working model" is a relatively flexible word in the patent applications world. In my experience, I have continuously maintained contact with patent attorneys during the development and refinement process of several products. This is an even more secure means of protection in that you are able to establish a design trail proving not only that this is your design, but that it evolved from earlier designs of yours.

Finally, I find it quite difficult to imagine a test that would verify that no generally accepted energy source is being employed. You would have to run many tests for each potential type of energy source. While perhaps possible, it would seem quite impractical.

I hope you understand that you are on a forum inhabited by inherently and deliberately skeptical people. The JREF is a very real organization (and the award is very real) with many very dedicated members with a great deal of data to sift through regarding people's claims. Do you realize that your claim is equivalent to me telling you that I'm levitating right now (although I am not at the moment) and offering no proof? Do you understand that without some straightforward answers to straightforward questions you will be dismissed as the loon many of us are beginning to suspect you are?
 
MWare said:
You do not want to apply for a patent or allow anyone to see inside your invention for fear that your tech will be stolen. If this product did work, and was built and distributed, what would stop any person from opening the box and replicating the technology. Without a patent you would have no mechanism for recourse. As someone with several patents under my name, I'm a bit curious how you intend to secure your design without one.

Additionally, the term "working model" is a relatively flexible word in the patent applications world. In my experience, I have continuously maintained contact with patent attorneys during the development and refinement process of several products. This is an even more secure means of protection in that you are able to establish a design trail proving not only that this is your design, but that it evolved from earlier designs of yours.

Finally, I find it quite difficult to imagine a test that would verify that no generally accepted energy source is being employed. You would have to run many tests for each potential type of energy source. While perhaps possible, it would seem quite impractical.

I hope you understand that you are on a forum inhabited by inherently and deliberately skeptical people. The JREF is a very real organization (and the award is very real) with many very dedicated members with a great deal of data to sift through regarding people's claims. Do you realize that your claim is equivalent to me telling you that I'm levitating right now (although I am not at the moment) and offering no proof? Do you understand that without some straightforward answers to straightforward questions you will be dismissed as the loon many of us are beginning to suspect you are?
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:clap:
 
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