Ed Pentagon - TruthMakesPeace

[NoahFence]

Let's put aside, for a moment, all the witnesses who saw an American Airlines jetliner fly into the Pentagon - and the lack of witnesses who saw it fly over. Let's also put aside the radar, FDR data, plane wreckage, passenger remains and DNA identification, and the fact that there is no evidence the plane or its occupants were anywhere else after that terrible morning.

Now let's suppose you're an evil [insert favorite evil cabal] conspirator with the desire to make everybody think that some hijackers flew an airliner into the Pentagon.

You can either

(a) recruit and train some hijackers, and allow them to carry out their plan, or

(b) get operatives to fly the real plane at the Pentagon, make a very dicey last-second flyover, hope that no one in the DC/NoVA area on that crystal-clear day notices (then fly the plane without being tracked to a secret place, and dispose of the entire aircraft and all its passengers undetectably) while also launching a large missile without being detected, which then flies undetected over DC/NoVa and into the Pentagon without being spotted at the exact moment of the real plane's flyover, then carefully scattering real plane parts (with matching serial numbers) and passenger remains (from the same passengers who you are now flying away from the Pentagon) through the burning building without being detected, and hope that none of the many, many operatives you need for this secret plan ever confesses out of guilt or the fact that a lot of people would pay him a lot of money for the story. And hope that trained investigators think that warhead damage looks like that from a 757.

Which would you choose, knowing that your plot being exposed means that you would end up jerking on the end of a rope?

The idea that there was an elaborate plot to convince people that the Pentagon was hit by AA 77 by not hitting it with AA 77 is grotesquely stupid, and anyone who believes it after thinking about it for more than about half a minute should be fitted for a straitjacket.

 

[Dash80]

These truther arguements will not stop because they will never accept the official evidence. Witnesses do not matter unless their statements contradict the official version of events or they are able to butcher their words to make it fit the theory. Even if a clear video of AA77 hitting the Pentagon was released, the truthers would whine "It's fake!" Like small children they ask lots of questions and always want the last word.

Anneliese

 

[DGM]

Even if a clear video of AA77 hitting the Pentagon was released, the truthers would whine "It's fake!"
Anneliese

Do you have triple corroborated proof it was not fake?





I thought not!

 

[ElMondoHummus]

The OCT says Flight 77 did not fly over, but right into the Pentagon.
Another theory asserts it banked NW, up the Potomac, to another air field.
Another asserts it banked SE and landed at DCA.
Again, security camera photos could quickly tell us and put a stop to the Conspiracy Theories.


The OCT says it is in various parts, wherever the FBI stores them.
Some parts were removed from the Federal crime scene, which is outrageous.
If it landed, the perpetrators probably would have dismantled or hidden it.
A thorough match of plane part serial numbers needs to be published.


The OCT says they perished in the Pentagon.
One theory is they landed at an air field near the KY/OH/PA border just as a drone took off, during the transponder-off period.
One branch of this theory is that they are hostages in custody somewhere.
Another sad theory is they were engaged as collateral damage, sacrifices for the NeoCon's War on Terror.


The OCT says everyone from the plane crashed at the Pentagon.
One theory says the DNA was brought from the air field to the mortuary lab at Dover AFB.
Another theory says the DNA results were manipulated, and not independently verified.
Another theory suggests infiltration of the Disaster Mortuary Operational Response Team (DMORT).
The release of Chain of Custody details would help put a stop to conjecture and unfair accusations.

Which one is true? I don't know. I would prefer to believe that our Government always tells us the truth, and that there is a logical reason explaining every question. But being told not to ask questions is unAmerican. All I am sure of is that we need a New Investigation with subpoena power.

So, somehow, a new investigation is needed instead of simply examining counterclaims on their own meritsⁱ? Seriously?

For this entire series of claims, a study of a combination of the radar data, FAA ATC testimonies, CVR and FDR data, airfone calls, ANG Lt. Col. Steve O'Brien's testimony, and ground eyewitness testimony firmly places Flight 77 at the Pentagon. The radar tracking and FAA ATC testimony alone does this. It is already established, and the supposed "objections" and counterclaims to not rise to sufficient levels of credibility to induce any need for re-examination. Any questions regarding the DNA and plane debris fade in the face of all other evidence; to presume that claims against those lines of evidence have merit without actually investigating that level of merit is stupid. It's overcredulity. It's being ridiculously, purposefully gullible.

Objections/counterclaims must first establish legitimacy; none of the ones mentioned above have. On the contrary, all have proven fallacious or distorted in some way or another, if not out-and-out wrong:

• Any "North of Citgo" alternate flight path claims fail under the weight of their own contradictions alone.
• Any objections about multiple parts serial numbers fail under the Call To Perfection fallacy, given that the jet's identity is already separately established in multiple other ways (not to mention the fact that some parts were indeed identified via serial number already).
• Drone proposals fail due to sheer lack of evidence; it is literally an empty claim, even before you take into consideration that it has been contradicted by the very ATC and electronic data mentioned above, not to mention in flight calls, and in flight and on ground eyewitnesses who openly identified the jet.
• The DNA evidence also fails, due to multiple factors, not the least of which were the placements of the individuals identified on the jet, the in-flight calls, and the post-event acknowledgement from the families that their loved ones were indeed on the plane.

Every one of the claims you bring up as reason for a new investigation fail upon examination of the claims own merits. So, with such failed claims, how can a call for a new investigation have any merit itself? It's based on a set of (*ahem*) mistakes, distortions, and utter failures to understand the existent evidence. That's no basis on which any investigation should be undertaken. You cannot determine the truth from a set of lies (or even innocent inaccuracies). It must be done from established fact. None of those reasons are based on established fact. That's the end of it.



i. And immediately discovering that they have none.

 

[TruthMakesPeace]

That is your defense? Seriously?
You seem to be missing the fact that there was indeed a lot of concrete that was not "pulverized"

The photos you posted are very good. I agree a lot of chunks of concrete were found -- just not as many as one would expect. For example, stacks of concrete were found when buildings collapsed due to an earth quake in Ahmedabad, India.
http://911Experiments.org/FallingConcrete

The cloud of concrete dust from each WTC was larger than one would expect, and reminiscent of a controlled demolition. We don't see so much dust covering the cars in Ahmedabad.

You also seem to misunderstand that the point of modeling is supposed to model the pertinent elements of a system. Take the figure Dave Thomas kindly worked out for everyone..

I agree, am working on an experiment to better model this, and will review Dave's analysis over the week end.

 

[Dash80]

DGM. That comment was incredibly childish but ok I'll bite...

The witnesses who saw and described a plane with a strong resemblance to AA77.

The DNA of every victim of the plane, by victim I mean not including hijackers but they were identified by the process of elimination. 2 were proven to be brothers.

The various plane parts found and photographed which are consistant with an American Airlines Boeing 757.

Anneliese

 

[ElMondoHummus]

So according to cicorp it's possible they "switched the planes" between the time the transponder was turned off and radar took over. Interesting.

That's it folks. Case closed. Pack it up, let's all go home. Last one out don't forget to turn the lights out.

Active radar actually never would've "taken over". Remember, in many air corridors, they operate simultaneously. It's the ATC's who'd switch over from one system to another.

If I'm remembering things correctly, the active (is it called "secondary", folks?) radar traces track the plane unambiguously (John, if I've got that wrong, please correct me). We'd not be talking one system losing the jet and another one firing up at that point, we'd be talking one system losing the jet while the other system's set of radards been tracking it all along, but the ATC's cannot switch over to those tracks and identify the jet in time (note the "and") to properly figure out that it's FL77.

Again, John, you can speak to this better than I can, but as I understand it, FL77 was tracked on active radar for nearly the entire trip, right? Merely excepting the short periods of time it was under radar for both takeoff and final impact. Am I right about that?

 

[ElMondoHummus]

DGM. That comment was incredibly childish but ok I'll bite...

The witnesses who saw and described a plane with a strong resemblance to AA77.

The DNA of every victim of the plane, by victim I mean not including hijackers but they were identified by the process of elimination. 2 were proven to be brothers.

The various plane parts found and photographed which are consistant with an American Airlines Boeing 757.

Anneliese

DGM's playing with you. Trust me, he's not a truther. I know it's hard to tell, but among us veterans here, we can see that he's clearly joking. We old, experienced farts know each other's forum persona well enough to tell that he's being sarcastic and sardonic.

 

[Dash80]

hehe. Well you got me! Newbie welcome?

 

[ElMondoHummus]

The cloud of concrete dust from each WTC was larger than one would expect, and reminiscent of a controlled demolition. We don't see so much dust covering the cars in Ahmedabad.

Either you're committing Hoffman's and/or King's mistake in your claim regarding the size of the dust cloud (and one more time, something you already acknowledged in a previous post: The cloud was much, much more than concrete; concrete was as little as only a quarter of the components of those clouds. They were mostly gypsum and asbestos), or if you're unfamiliar with Hoffman's and King's individual works, then you're committing the Bare Assertion fallacy. Either way, you're entirely wrong about this.

Some reading:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-91469.html

More reading:
Link

Bottom line: Any claims that there is anything wrong with the size and volume of the dust clouds created from the collapse are demonstrably incorrect.

 

[DGM]

DGM. That comment was incredibly childish but ok I'll bite...

The witnesses who saw and described a plane with a strong resemblance to AA77.

The DNA of every victim of the plane, by victim I mean not including hijackers but they were identified by the process of elimination. 2 were proven to be brothers.

The various plane parts found and photographed which are consistant with an American Airlines Boeing 757.

Anneliese

DGM's playing with you. Trust me, he's not a truther. I know it's hard to tell, but among us veterans here, we can see that he's clearly joking. We old, experienced farts know each other's forum persona well enough to tell that he's being sarcastic and sardonic.

Not to mention the date.

hehe. Well you got me! Newbie welcome?

 

[NoahFence]

cicorp - i know you totally ignored my other question, and I don't know what makes me think you won't do the same here, but I'll ask anyway -

In your opinion why did the pilot of the C130 asked to tail AA flight 77 not mention a 2nd plane, or a drone, or anything other than AA flight 77?

He saw it from miles away and followed it right up until it struck the Pentagon. If there were 2 aircraft as you suggest, wouldn't he have mentioned that?

 

[beachnut]

First of all, all I know is that we need a New Investigation by an independent 9/11 Commission of scientists with PhD, Civil Engineers and at least 1 professional pilot, that answers these questions.

As stated, I see credible evidence for a North of Citgo approach (including testimony by Pentagon Police officers, grounds keepers, and a heliport monitor), but am not sure which theory is correct for what happened to the plane after that. Banking to hit the light poles from a NOC approach seems implausible. I doubt if a light pole can go through a cab window without scratching the hood. It is truly a quandary.

Ironically, the NOC topic can be discussed freely on JREF, but not on supposedly Truth oriented 911Blogger.com which is censored to conform to the monitors' views of what is plausible. It takes an uncensored forum to get to the Truth. I'd rather endure nasty name calling on JREF than endure limits to discussion.

I am still gathering ideas and information, but an official Commission should really do this. Personally, I have ruled out non-plane hypotheses for complete lack of evidence. Jesse Ventura's mention of the stupid missile theory hurt his TV show. However, he is right it is suspicious that the Accounting section was hit (with records of $2.3 trillion) and under construction (an opportunity to plant bombs). Until we have a New Investigation, including photos from the 85 security cameras, showing a plane approaching the Pentagon, we can only make amateur conjectures.

On one hand, I don't want to be criticized for avoiding your questions. On the other hand, I will probably be criticized just for stating alternative theories. But it is better to respond, and get new ideas. Let me emphasize that all we can do is theorize on many aspects of 9/11 until a New Investigation is completed, one that meets the evidence standards of a Court of Law, and answers these questions scientifically, with a peer reviewed final report. Here goes.


The OCT says Flight 77 did not fly over, but right into the Pentagon.
Another theory asserts it banked NW, up the Potomac, to another air field.
Another asserts it banked SE and landed at DCA.
Again, security camera photos could quickly tell us and put a stop to the Conspiracy Theories.


The OCT says it is in various parts, wherever the FBI stores them.
Some parts were removed from the Federal crime scene, which is outrageous.
If it landed, the perpetrators probably would have dismantled or hidden it.
A thorough match of plane part serial numbers needs to be published.


The OCT says they perished in the Pentagon.
One theory is they landed at an air field near the KY/OH/PA border just as a drone took off, during the transponder-off period.
One branch of this theory is that they are hostages in custody somewhere.
Another sad theory is they were engaged as collateral damage, sacrifices for the NeoCon's War on Terror.


The OCT says everyone from the plane crashed at the Pentagon.
One theory says the DNA was brought from the air field to the mortuary lab at Dover AFB.
Another theory says the DNA results were manipulated, and not independently verified.
Another theory suggests infiltration of the Disaster Mortuary Operational Response Team (DMORT).
The release of Chain of Custody details would help put a stop to conjecture and unfair accusations.

Which one is true? I don't know. I would prefer to believe that our Government always tells us the truth, and that there is a logical reason explaining every question. But being told not to ask questions is unAmerican. All I am sure of is that we need a New Investigation with subpoena power.

More nonsense.
You post piles of nonsense and lies, and then post more. You never correct your failed claims, what is your purpose? Why do you display your lack of knowledge and never correct your mistakes?

 

[Dash80]

hehe DGM, AND I'd just posted in the april fools thread too. Must keep my thinking cap on at all times! I think I'm going to like this forum very much!

 

[Animal]

The photos you posted are very good. I agree a lot of chunks of concrete were found -- just not as many as one would expect. For example, stacks of concrete were found when buildings collapsed due to an earth quake in Ahmedabad, India.
http://911Experiments.org/FallingConcrete

You are trying to compare a reinforced concrete building structure (India) with a steel frame structure with a concrete floor slab. The 4-5 inch thick slabs of all 110 stories stacked perfectly would have been less than 50 feet tall. (about 4 stories) the debris pile was around 10 stories.

The cloud of concrete dust from each WTC was larger than one would expect, and reminiscent of a controlled demolition. We don't see so much dust covering the cars in Ahmedabad.

You keep insisting that the dust cloud was concrete, when in fact it was mostly gypsum board, insulation and other interior components. Do you really expect the same dust cloud from a low-mid rise reinforced (and likely tensioned) concrete structure to be anything like that of a 110 story steel frame building?

I agree, am working on an experiment to better model this, and will review Dave's analysis over the week end.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_193154d961b3a3fe25.jpg[/qimg]

 

[TruthMakesPeace]

New Investigation independently funded. Trump Commission?

You want a new investigation? Not with my tax money....Otherwise pay for it yourselves.

Yes, I agree that to be truly independent, a 9/11 Commission should be independently funded.

http://NYCCan.org is raising funds for a new investigation, independent of tax dollars.

Donald Trump has been approached, offering to call it the http://TrumpCommission.org.
If he can spend millions judging beauty for Miss America, perhaps he will help judge truth for America.

Regardless of who funds it, the Commission must have subpoena powers to get to all the evidence it requests.
Everyone, even Bush & Cheney, should testify separately, publicly, and under oath.

 

[twinstead]

Yes, I agree that to be truly independent, a 9/11 Commission should be independently funded.

http://NYCCan.org is raising funds for a new investigation, independent of tax dollars.

Donald Trump has been approached, offering to call it the http://TrumpCommission.org.
If he can spend millions judging beauty pageants, he can help judge scientific evidence for America.

But the Commission must have subpoena powers to get to all the evidence it requests.
Everyone, even Bush & Cheney, should testify under oath.

So who exactly will perform this unbiased investigation?

 

[DGM]

Yes, I agree that to be truly independent, a 9/11 Commission should be independently funded.

http://NYCCan.org is raising funds for a new investigation, independent of tax dollars.

Donald Trump has been approached, offering to call it the http://TrumpCommission.org.
If he can spend millions judging beauty for Miss America, he can help judge truth for America.

But the Commission must have subpoena powers to get to all the evidence it requests.
Everyone, even Bush & Cheney, should testify under oath.

Go for it! Have a good time. You might want to see how much Richard Gage wants to chip-in to the endeavor. No wait, doesn't he get a cut off the top, considering it's his non-profit that the money goes through?

 

[NoahFence]

So cicorp - shall I just add you to the list starting with ergo of truthers who selectively ignore people?

Ergo challenged debunkers - and lost. Now he ignores me.

I asked you a perfectly rational question (actually, 2 of 'em) and now YOU ignore me.

I'm looking for that ONE truther who can discuss rationally. You know, ask AND answer questions. I guess that search continues, huh?

 

[beachnut]

Yes, I agree that to be truly independent, a 9/11 Commission should be independently funded.

http://NYCCan.org is raising funds for a new investigation, independent of tax dollars.

Donald Trump has been approached, offering to call it the http://TrumpCommission.org.
If he can spend millions judging beauty for Miss America, perhaps he will help judge truth for America.

Regardless of who funds it, the Commission must have subpoena powers to get to all the evidence it requests.
Everyone, even Bush & Cheney, should testify separately, publicly, and under oath.

Trump is a mindless birther, good one. That is funny, birther idiot investigating moronic truther claims. Subpoena powers? Don't need it, the evidence proving it was 19 terrorists is in the public domain. Too late. Investigation was done, 911 truth missed it.