Pentagon eyewitness' wouldn't recognise a B757 or American Airlines yet

[Edx]

Pentagon eyewitness' wouldn't recognise a B757 or American Airlines jet

I'm arguing with someone right now that claims a plane hit the Pentagon but not a AA Boeing 757.

He claims eyewitness' would not able to identify if it was an American Airlines jet or a Boeing 757 at those speeds.

Thoughts?

edit: correct misspelled Boeing how embarrassing lol

 

[DGM]

I'm arguing with someone right now that claims a plane hit the Pentagon but not a AA Bowing 757.

He claims eyewitness' would not able to identify if it was an American Airlines jet or a Bowing 757 at those speeds.

Thoughts?

It's Boeing.

 

[twinstead]

I suppose that's where all the physical evidence comes into play, everything from a missing Flight 77 to DNA of passengers known to have been on the plane.

 

[DGM]

I'm arguing with someone right now that claims a plane hit the Pentagon but not a AA Boeing 757.

He claims eyewitness' would not able to identify if it was an American Airlines jet or a Boeing 757 at those speeds.

Thoughts?

edit: correct misspelled Boeing how embarrassing lol

Did he give any reasoning for his belief? As far as recognizing the jet, I can see most people not being able to identify the exact type. In fact many did not identify it correctly. The American Airlines logo and distinct paint scheme is highly recognized and someone would not need to see it for very long in order to recognize it. It's like driving by a big box orange building and not having to read the sign to know it's a Home Depot.

 

[Edx]

Did he give any reasoning for his belief? As far as recognizing the jet, I can see most people not being able to identify the exact type. In fact many did not identify it correctly. The American Airlines logo and distinct paint scheme is highly recognized and someone would not need to see it for very long in order to recognize it. It's like driving by a big box orange building and not having to read the sign to know it's a Home Depot.

Here's some of his quotes:

You know a lot of people who can tell what buzzed them just overhead, at altitude where it clips light poles, going 460 knots

...

A jet that was flying a few yards off the ground? Going 460 knots? Do you have ANY idea how fast that is? You ever seen a plane take off right next to you? Well, this is 5 times faster.

Anyone who claims they saw AA logo is a liar. Anyone who claims they know it was a large commercial jet is a liar. Have you seen the official tape of the strike? That's pretty close to what all the eye witnesses saw. Can you positively identify an AA jet liner there? Moving on

...

Username: K^2
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=116145&page=4

 

[DGM]

Here's some of his quotes:



...

Username: K^2
http://forums.eidosgames.com/showthread.php?t=116145&page=4

By "official tape" I assume he means the Pentagon parking lot footage. He's an idiot if he thinks that's what the human eye would pick up. Our field of view is much greater. Tell him to try driving down the road looking through a video camera (although I hope he doesn't try it).

 

[Oystein]

People could easily recognize both airline and aircraft type if the following two criteria are met, and much less easily or not at all if not:

1. they are at a "comfortable" distance: underneath they could't see the familiar markings; up very close it might fly by too fast; too far away you can't see enough details
2. they have some experience with commercial airliners, specifically with AA and 757, as frequent fliers, plane spotters, or airline professionals

I remember that among the eye witnesses there were pilots and others with connection to Reagan National airport, AA and so forth.

One would have to look at the individual witnesses, their location, profession, time of interview etc., to cast doubt on their statements.

I am certain that some of the witnesses were influenced by information other than what they saw, especially if they were interviewed hour or days after the event. And possibly were right (guessed) by accident. This should be seen vis-a-vis those witnesses who made a wrong identification.

 

[I Ratant]

Twin engined transports can be difficult to identify precisely, there's not that much of a difference in shapes.
The Boing 777 is larger than the Airbuses or smaller Boings, but those smaller planes pretty much resemble each other.
Longer, fatter... machs nichts with only a couple seconds to see and comprehend what you're seeing.
American is almost unique with its bare minimum paint, mostly polished aluminum surfaces, which helps picking out the airline, if not the particular type of plane, as the ANG C-130 pilot observed as he watched AA 77 fly into the west side of the Pentagon.

 

[I Ratant]

...
I am certain that some of the witnesses were influenced by information other than what they saw, especially if they were interviewed hour or days after the event. And possibly were right (guessed) by accident. This should be seen vis-a-vis those witnesses who made a wrong identification.

.
The 70,000 witnesses to the Sun's erratic motions on 10/17/1917 were certainly influenced by others information...
If those guys across the street saw a heavenly miracle, I'm holier than they are so I saw it too!

 

[Edx]

Of course this is a guy that claims what hit the Pentagon did not have engines on the wings, so people would have had to be mistaken about a twin engined jet as well.

 

[I Ratant]

One of the guys I worked with couldn't distinguish between a U-2 and the SR-71.
We'd see them a lot.
I presume the black paint threw him off.
Long wings versus flying fiddle....

 

[Dave Rogers]

Thoughts?

Has he ever been to an air show?

Dave

 

[Sabretooth]

Has he ever been to an air show?

Dave

I was thinking this same thing...

There's a point in a Thunderbirds show where one of the solo planes kind of disappears for a few moments and then buzzes the crowd doing (I'm told) between 550 and 600 knots (just below Mach). Even though the plane comes in from behind (as the crowd is focused on the diamond formation in front of them), there is no trouble identifying what kind of plane and/or it's markings when it reappears, even at that speed.

 

[I Ratant]

That's a situation where only those planes... T-birds, Blue Angels, will be flying and expected to be seen.
9/11, OTOH, was really completely unexpected, and even aircraft enthusiasts observing the events mis-identified the types involved.
The first one MOF was into the Tower so quickly that little can be determined.

 

[Dave Rogers]

That's a situation where only those planes... T-birds, Blue Angels, will be flying and expected to be seen.
9/11, OTOH, was really completely unexpected, and even aircraft enthusiasts observing the events mis-identified the types involved.
The first one MOF was into the Tower so quickly that little can be determined.

But several of the Pentagon eyewitnesses were able to identify both the type and the livery of AA77, probably because they happened to be looking the right way. Yes, many witnesses will have missed those details, but that's because they were taken by surprise, not because the airliner was going too fast for it to be physically possible to tell its type or colours.

Dave

 

[shure]

I spoke with many people who saw an American Airlines Boeing hit the pentagon with their own eyes the morning of September 11, 2001. I also spoke with a lady who worked on AA77 quite frequently, but not that day. She personally knew 8 co-workers that died that morning. She also recognised various debris as well as her friend Renee May's bracelet. Furthermore, the attendant told me that there were air phones on the plane, but only 5 can operate at one time. She also said cell phones did work depending on the "provider" and Verizon happened to be a provider that had very good signal reception in the DC area.

 

[willhaven]

Just show them the pictures of the AA debris on the lawn, the cab's window smashed with a light pole, the overhead diagram of all the light poles that were snapped off on the way in, the DNA map and finally pictures of the corpses found in the pentagon from the plane.

If that isn't enough evidence for them, just stop arguing.

 

[MG1962]

That's a situation where only those planes... T-birds, Blue Angels, will be flying and expected to be seen.
9/11, OTOH, was really completely unexpected, and even aircraft enthusiasts observing the events mis-identified the types involved.
The first one MOF was into the Tower so quickly that little can be determined.

But you are discounting adrenelin. The unexpected noise of the approaching plane. Not knowing or understanding what it is going on will send the average person into hyper drive

It is amazing how much you will think feel see in what turns out to be a second

 

[I Ratant]

But not all of the surprised viewers will comprehend the situation.
Elwood P. Suggins is alive and well in the typical self-centered person, who pays attention to others only when the other gets in their way.
The number of people I worked with in Flight Test who couldn't identify some of the rare planes flying around was amazing.
And their identifications would tend to the spectacular, when puzzled.
Because some planes would be truly unique, all of them were, for some of these guys.
And there's persons living here in Palmdale that don't even know there's an airport here!
Reliable witnesses to things in the sky, they ain't.
One of the geezers I see at the Mall is puzzled by a large stationary bright light in the eastern sky at night.
There aren't any.
But where he sees these, there is a flight path for planes flying into Burbank and Van Nuys. At night, their lights are on, but... these lights move towards the viewer and pass to the west.
And while bright aren't huge.
He misses that part, to the point of being unreliable as a witness to anything.
So when Mr. Suggins reports on things in the air, one is almost safe in wondering if -anything- happened as described.
The FDR, the airline records, radar, qualified observers....the never-seen-since passengers, AA 77 did fly into the Pentagon, on 9/11.

 

[sheeplesnshills]

I'm arguing with someone right now that claims a plane hit the Pentagon but not a AA Boeing 757.

He claims eyewitness' would not able to identify if it was an American Airlines jet or a Boeing 757 at those speeds.

Thoughts?

edit: correct misspelled Boeing how embarrassing lol

AA Paintjob is very easy to recognise (polished metal with red and blue stripe and large writing on Fuselage and letters on the tail) if you fly frequently.

Its like a Coke Logo...you recognize it at a glance....least ways I do since I flew a lot with them in the past.