Penn & Teller barbecue the Bible

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
Whether God truly exists or not, a whole bunch of people on this planet (maybe the majority) believe that He does (in one form or another).

{sigh} This is just fallacy. What a whole buch of people BELIEVE means nothing.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I admit being a "believer" in some things, but I have a difficult time believing what I think I just read..............

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
Interesting. You're passionately judging the morality of an act that you don't even believe took place?

Yes, and for good reason. People really believe that this took place.

I thought that "what a whole buch of people BELIEVE means nothing"?

 

[RandFan]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I admit being a "believer" in some things, but I have a difficult time believing what I think I just read..............

This is rhetorical. This is the reason you are so difficult to have a discussion with. This is not argument.

Aside from the fact that it means a whole bunch of people believe something what else could it mean? What significance is there of a whole bunch of people believing something, more importantly something that can't be proven?

 

[RandFan]

I thought that "what a whole buch of people BELIEVE means nothing"?

That's right, your point?

As a complete aside, I will grant that beliefs have some "meaning" from a practical standpoint. Beliefs foster culture and social cohesion (good meaning) and beliefs foster tribalism, suicide bombers and terrorism.

But this has nothing to do with how this all started. You say that many people believe in something as if there is some DEEP meaning. There isn't. If there was you could tell me what it is. I keep asking and you keep avoiding the question.

What is this meaning?

 

[Marc L]

I think OK is...relative...more than objective. We are free to choose to disobey God, for any reason. OK means acceptable, but acceptable to whom?

I think that God, who is in the forgiveness business, can accept those who disobeyed him for any number of reasons, sure.

It is always OK to disobey God. Threats of hell may be real, or may not be real, but in either case it's OK to disobey God. If it wasn't, rapists would get struck by lightning before they committed rape or something. Die of a heart attack.

"OK" might have been the wrong word. "Moral" might have been better. My point was could one do it with out eventual reprecussions. In Christianity, of course, you have the option of repenting up until your death bed, but after that, there is punishment.

I said "many athiests" Marc, but I can see how it might have read like an accusation that you in particular were being insulting, seeing how I was replying to you. My bad.

No problem. I figured you were speaking generally, but I wanted to be positive.

If it's objective reality, then that's the way it is. Calling it a threat is, to me, a superfluous descriptor. If it follows, just like becoming a splat on the ground follows when you jump off a building, threat is taking it a bit too personal. Consequences, if asserted as being unavoidable, would then be commensurate to the result of any sort of action on this planet which could result in a very nasty result.

The difference is though, the splat on the ground is natural. You have no choice if you fall from a great height but to go splat (unless you're very, very lucky). There is no way, absent intervention, that you will not go splat. There isn't someone out there saying, "Don't jump off a building, because if you do, I will cause you to go splat."

With salvation/damnation, on the other hand, it's God saying, "Obey me, or be eternally damned." While there is no choice but to be eternally damned (assuming the truth of Christianity), it's a consequence that's imposed by God, not one that's natural. Without God's intervention, not obeying God wouldn't result in damnation.

It's possible, also that one or both of us is misunderstanding objective reality. If God actually said that he will damn us, that is still an objective reality, IMO. The fact exists that he said it, and he does intend to carry it out.

It God will punish the goats, I'm glad he at least told us that. If he never told us that, then he wouldn't have "threatened" us, but then we wouldn't be clued into the ostensible objective reality, and I don't think that's a better situation than being threatened as you say.

But the thing is, though, God is the one giving the punishment. He's the one deciding salvation/damnation.

They didn't die immediately.

That's true, but then, if you read the account of the Fall, it's likely that they would have died sooner or later anyways. If they were already immortal, God wouldn't have been concerned about them eating from the Tree of Life.

** One argument I've heard for benefits of Christianity is how it changes people's lives for the better. While that may be true, the changes seem to also exist when converting to other religions as well, and thus, isn't a benefit of just Christianity.

True, but that doesn't mean it isn't true. Wait that sounded weird. But anyways, a particular drug may make you feel better if you're sick, but that doesn't mean another drug couldn't also make you feel better if you're sick.

-Elliot

Granted, but in religious terms, Christians teach that the improvement comes strictly from the one true god. If people in other religions are experiencing betterment of their lives, it can't be from the Christian god, so it has to be something else.

Marc

 

[jmercer]

God:

Okay. I worship the same God as the Jews, but they don't worship the same complete God as me.

How, precisely, can an eternal, omnipotent, omnscient, omnipresent being - the Alpha and the Omega - be incomplete in any possible way, Huntster?

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
It is proof that struggle over whose God is the "right one", or whether He even exists or not, has been going on for all of recorded human history.

Sheesh...........

Assuming this is true, so what? It still proves nothing.

First of all, it is true.

Secondly, it demonstrates that spirituality has been a factor of our existence for at least our recorded history, and it will likely continue to be for the foreseeable future.

You say this as if it has some deep meaning. No, it just means that a struggle has taken place.

And this thread is evidence that struggle continues.

It's difficult to have a discussion with you Huntster. You don't grasp fundamental logic. I'm sorry but your passion blinds your judgment.

This post is an example of logical reasoning. I understand logic and reasoning as well as the next guy.

What I'm doing is rejecting your logic and reasoning, outlining why, and responding to your continued struggling.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I admit being a "believer" in some things, but I have a difficult time believing what I think I just read..............

This is rhetorical. This is the reason you are so difficult to have a discussion with. This is not argument.....

Oh. The reason I'm so difficult to discuss things with is my inability to tell the difference between when you're writing BS on purpose, or when you're writing BS whimsically?

Yeah. It's all my fault.

 

[Tony]

Yeah. It's all my fault.

There is no one else to blame. You are purposefully not trying to understand what RandFan is telling you.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
I thought that "what a whole buch of people BELIEVE means nothing"?

That's right, your point?

The point is that you're contradicting yourself. In one post you write:

What a whole buch of people BELIEVE means nothing.

In another you write:

Originally Posted by Huntster
Interesting. You're passionately judging the morality of an act that you don't even believe took place?

Yes, and for good reason. People really believe that this took place.

As a complete aside, I will grant that beliefs have some "meaning" from a practical standpoint. Beliefs foster culture and social cohesion (good meaning) and beliefs foster tribalism, suicide bombers and terrorism.

But this has nothing to do with how this all started. You say that many people believe in something as if there is some DEEP meaning. There isn't. If there was you could tell me what it is. I keep asking and you keep avoiding the question.

What is this meaning?

That the influence of God (whether or not He truly exists) will continue to be a factor in the human experience.

 

[Huntster]

How, precisely, can an eternal, omnipotent, omnscient, omnipresent being - the Alpha and the Omega - be incomplete in any possible way, Huntster?

Inquiring minds want to know.

From the Jewish standpoint, God doesn't include Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit like it does in the Christian view.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
Yeah. It's all my fault.

There is no one else to blame. You are purposefully not trying to understand what RandFan is telling you.

Actually, I thought it was RandFan who was purposefully not trying to understand what I was writing.

 

[Tony]

Actually, I thought it was RandFan who was purposefully not trying to understand what I was writing.

You thought wrong. And it's clear from what you wrote in post #290 that you have yet to comprehend what RandFan is saying.

 

[jjramsey]

However, given that crucifixion was regarded as degrading and dishonorable, it is unlikely that the doctrine was created de novo.

That's merely an assumption.

No, it isn't. From Origen in Contra Celsum:

He next charges the Christians with being "guilty of sophistical reasoning, in saying that the Son of God is the Logos Himself." And he thinks that he strengthens the accusation, because "when we declare the Logos to be the Son of God, we do not present to view a pure and holy Logos, but a most degraded man, who was punished by scourging and crucifixion.

From Arnobius:

"But, says my opponent, the deities are not inimical to you, because you worship the omnipotent God; but because you both allege that one born as men are, and put to death on the cross, which is a disgraceful punishment even for worthless men, was God ... O ye who laugh because we worship one who died an ignominious death."

Unless you consider records of the pagan reaction to the crucifixion as "merely an assumption."

Why wouldn't the writers of the Bible fiction use a horrible, but common, tragic death?

The problem is that crucifixion wasn't just tragic. It carried a stigma. (IIRC, ceo_esq had likened the stigma to that of child molestation, though I may remember wrong.) Anyway, if you think that the reaction to the crucifixion would largely be pity and rooting for the underdog, then you are making the very bad assumption that the ancient pagans' mindset resembled that of modern Westerners.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
Actually, I thought it was RandFan who was purposefully not trying to understand what I was writing.

You thought wrong.

Well, I'm very interested to learn that a mind reader is participating here. If you know that I'm "purposefully not trying to understand what RandFan is telling me", then you must also know what I'm thinking at this precise moment.

Can you tell us all what that is?

And it's clear from what you wrote in post #290 that you have yet to comprehend what RandFan is saying.

Yes, it should be clear from post #290 that I haven't comprehended what RandFan is saying. Like I pointed out in post #290, RandFan is conflicting him/her self with the posts cited.

That's why I posted #290, hoping that RandFan would explain it, not to attract mind-readers.

 

[I less than three logic]

Well, I'm very interested to learn that a mind reader is participating here. If you know that I'm "purposefully not trying to understand what RandFan is telling me", then you must also know what I'm thinking at this precise moment.

That’s an unreasonable target, even for a mind reader. This “precise moment” has changed since the time I started writing this post.

 

[RandFan]

First of all, it is true.

I'm not so sure.

Secondly, it demonstrates that spirituality has been a factor of our existence for at least our recorded history, and it will likely continue to be for the foreseeable future.

Why is this important? So what?

And this thread is evidence that struggle continues.

The strugle produces death and wars. What good is the struggle?

This post is an example of logical reasoning. I understand logic and reasoning as well as the next guy.

No. No. NO. NO.

No you don't!

What I'm doing is rejecting your logic and reasoning, outlining why, and responding to your continued struggling.

You are engaging in fallacy and haven't a clue that you are.

 

[RandFan]

Yeah. It's all my fault.

It really is. Again, your response is rhetorical. You do not make arguments you make claims and when I make arguments you simply engage in contradiction.

Yes, it is all your fault.

 

[RandFan]

The point is that you're contradicting yourself. In one post you write:

In another you write:

I stand by what I write. I would happily submit my argument to any Christian philosopher or logician. Just because something appears to be a contradiction to you doesn't mean that it is. The fact that there is a lot of people that believes something does not prove something other than lots of people believe something.

RandFan

But this has nothing to do with how this all started. You say that many people believe in something as if there is some DEEP meaning. There isn't. If there was you could tell me what it is. I keep asking and you keep avoiding the question.

What is this meaning?

That the influence of God (whether or not He truly exists) will continue to be a factor in the human experience.

1.) Assuming that god does not exist then a lot of innocent people have died for nothing.

2.) Assuming that god does indeed exist then a lot of innocent people have died for god.

Why do people need to die in the name of god. I say we stop it.

 

[Huntster]

Originally Posted by Huntster
First of all, it is true.

I'm not so sure.

Yes, that's obvious.

Quote:
Secondly, it demonstrates that spirituality has been a factor of our existence for at least our recorded history, and it will likely continue to be for the foreseeable future.

Why is this important? So what?

I think it's important because people will continue to be cognizant of God. You might consider it important because you have a lot of people to unsuccessfully proselytize your ideology of skepticism.

Quote:
And this thread is evidence that struggle continues.

The strugle produces death and wars. What good is the struggle?

In addition to death and wars, it also produces debate and thought, like this.

Quote:
This post is an example of logical reasoning. I understand logic and reasoning as well as the next guy.

No. No. NO. NO.

No you don't!

Yes, yes, YES, YES!

Yes I do!

And I still reject your "logic".

Quote:
What I'm doing is rejecting your logic and reasoning, outlining why, and responding to your continued struggling.

You are engaging in fallacy and haven't a clue that you are.

That's your opinion.